Male Feminists - the biggest road block to Men's Rights

[Jeremi]

This is a topic that I've been pondering for a while now. It seems to be that often times the "Frontline" of attacks against most MRA related content and events has a core of rabid Male Feminists. These Men usually lob the "misogyny" bomb with great frequency and trumpet the "check mah priviledge" style of Feminist indoctrination.

 

Perhaps so many Men are involved in the battle against Men because a large number of them were raised by single mothers, or (as in my case) present but weak Father figures. One also cannot ignore the liberal/leftist connection to Feminism which necessitates Men on the left preserving the "party line" so to speak. I wonder then what others think can be done in the short term to empower young male feminists to pull them out of the estrogen based Junta and into freedom for their mind and balls?

[PGP]

I've just started reading about feminism and MRM etc., I never paid it much heed previously. I actually asked a feminist I am acquainted with as to the difference between feminism and humanism and she didn't have an answer for me. From what I have read and heard from male feminists, they strike me as emasculated masochists. I have the suspicion that male feminists have seen nothing but rubbish male figures in their lives and therefore see some sort of hope in women doing a better job of the world at large. This might segue-way with socialism aspect and the state as a father figure that's lcd equalisation, limiting the harm done by all the horrible men and giving women an equal chance via subsidisation. 

I don't have any original answers. For me, self-knowledge is the only rational path. I actually really fear for society atm, it's like there's a bifurcation taking place between the universally true and the partisan nonsense that takes up the quorum of discourse. 

[NotDarkYet]

Imho the pressure comes from women.

 

Men clearly fear confronting women on their BS in this dept.

 

Case in point:

 

The two separate times I brought up male rape stats (in prison) BOTH women cried, and told me I was a jerk for bringing it up.

 

Both of them packed their belongings and threatened to leave.

 

 

Very very strange.

[Lou-W]

Explain to them that they could actually get laid if they didn't self erase and subjugate themselves to manipulative, political power hungry dominatrices consciously transferring their unresolved personal issues on half of humanity.        

[PatrickC]

Yes Jeremie.. The 'White Knight' is the continuing occasional itch in my own arse. One way I deal with that itch is to integrate and attach myself with virtuous men that aren't driven by their own cocks!

 

EDIT - On a serious aside there is an evolutionary bias that both men and women share. Always protect the ladies. This made sense in the past, when resources were scarce and disease rampant. Losing a lady would mean less babies and ultimately risked the tribes extinction.

[Mike Fleming]

The brainwashing goes deep.  I was a stupid white knight until only fairly recently, maybe 2 years ago.  Looking back, I wonder what I've been thinking in this regard for most of my life because it's only led to pain.   It's just so ingrained in society more so I think than even government or religion, both of which I'd been skeptical of for most of my adult life.  I'd never even had a second thought about my gender role though.   It took a lot of deprogramming to get me out of the mindset.  I wonder if it's even possible for most guys, because I can turn people onto skepticism about government or religion but when it comes to the male role in society, forget it, the resistance is extreme even amongst some of the most critical thinkers I know. 

[PatrickC]

Yes, it's probably the most annoying aspect of all are the intelligent guys who refuse to see anything wrong with some of the behaviour of women. Even when the contradiction is pointed out for them. I find in nearly every case they are aware of a female audience, which I've got to guess they are attempting to impress.

[Psychophant]

...

 

EDIT - On a serious aside there is an evolutionary bias that both men and women share. Always protect the ladies. This made sense in the past, when resources were scarce and disease rampant. Losing a lady would mean less babies and ultimately risked the tribes extinction.

 

On a pragmatic level, for sure, but you could hardly call a cave woman lady. Albeit that, the whole concept of chivalry is sexist, bigotted and hypocritical. It is sexist because it grants preferential treatment based on genitalia. It is bigotted because these kinda sexism is perceived as normative by the proponent. Yeah, and sexism is hypocritical because of the doublestandard.

[aeonicentity]

Can i just point out here that chivallry or 'knightly behavior' has very few perscriptions for behavior towards women except "don't kill them", and most of its codes pertain towards not killing you fellow knights. It was an early convention to try to reign in mass violence in central europe. It is not very sexist, or mysoginstic unless you consider not killing women and children mysogny.

[MMX2010]

I think the best water-in-the-face argument aimed against White Knights comes from Rollo here:

 

http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/14/appreciation/

 

The most appealing paragraphs:

 

(1) "I think what most men uniquely deceive themselves of is that they will ultimately be appreciated by women for their sacrifices. Learn this now, you wont. You can’t be because women fundamentally lack the ability to fully realize, much less appreciate the sacrifices a man makes to facilitate her reality. Even the most enlightened, appreciative woman you know still operates in a feminne-centric reality. Men making the personal sacrifices necessary to honor, respect and love her are commonplace. You’re supposed to do those things. You sacrificed your ambitions and potential to provide her with a better life? You were supposed to. You resisted temptation and didn’t cheat on your wife with the hot secretary who was DTF and ready to go? You were supposed to. Your responsibilities to maintaining a marriage, a home, your family, etc. are common – they’re expected. They are only appreciated in their absence."

 

(2) "For instance in The Mature Man thread; assume for a moment that a 40 y.o. Man with the options to pursue younger women “does the right thing” and seeks out a relationship with a woman his own age. Would he be appreciated for essentially giving an aged woman a new lease on life? Or would he be viewed as doing what is to be expected of him?

 

Would a man who marries a single mother and helps with the parental investment of another man’s child be appreciated more for having done so? Would it even factor into a woman’s estimation of his character, or would he simply doing what’s expected of a man?  The question of appreciation is a real quandary for the White Knight."

[hannahbanana]

I just had a difficult conversation with two guys who I was friends with from highschool, about men's rights and feminism. They kept telling me that the men's rights movement was tactless because it was sort of like saying "straight pride" around a LGBT community that didn't have equal rights. I also had trouble dragging out real examples of the patriarchy from them. It really made me sad, because I've been really good friends with them and been able to have philosophically relevant discussions about other topics, but this was really difficult.

I think a lot of it is an "if you aren't with us, you're against us" attitude. It doesn't matter if you still believe in treating people equally regardless of gender, if you don't support feminism, you are automatically against gender equality. That is how most people see it, since most people are thoroughly convinced that feminism also opposes double standards that are detrimental to men.

[J. D. Stembal]

I just had a difficult conversation with two guys who I was friends with from highschool, about men's rights and feminism. They kept telling me that the men's rights movement was tactless because it was sort of like saying "straight pride" around a LGBT community that didn't have equal rights. I also had trouble dragging out real examples of the patriarchy from them. It really made me sad, because I've been really good friends with them and been able to have philosophically relevant discussions about other topics, but this was really difficult.

I think a lot of it is an "if you aren't with us, you're against us" attitude. It doesn't matter if you still believe in treating people equally regardless of gender, if you don't support feminism, you are automatically against gender equality. That is how most people see it, since most people are thoroughly convinced that feminism also opposes double standards that are detrimental to men.

 

You've hit the feminist right on the head.

 

If you try to propose that feminism is not about equality to a feminist, you'll get a lot of resistance. Most people, men and women, don't even really know the first thing about feminist ideology. It's quite likely that they've never read anything about feminism or done any research. All the feminist understands is that feminism is about equality so it must be great. This is why not many people besides MRAs bemoan shenanigans such as #killallmen, and when you point it out to them, they rationalize by saying "That's not feminism," or "Not all feminism is like that."

[hannahbanana]

 All the feminist understands is that feminism is about equality so it must be great. This is why not many people besides MRAs bemoan shenanigans such as #killallmen, and when you point it out to them, they rationalize by saying "That's not feminism," or "Not all feminism is like that."

Yeah, I kept running into that. Every time I gave an example like #killallmen, or feminists saying that boys should be castrated because they are potential rapists, they kept saying "No, but that isn't really feminism." In order for me to continue the conversation, I had to hedge and refer to them as "radical feminists" and make the argument that it is troubling that they are gaining more clout in the feminist community. Our definitions of what feminists, radical feminists, and MRAs are were completely different and unable to be reconciled.

[PatrickC]

I just had a difficult conversation with two guys who I was friends with from highschool, about men's rights and feminism. They kept telling me that the men's rights movement was tactless because it was sort of like saying "straight pride" around a LGBT community that didn't have equal rights. I also had trouble dragging out real examples of the patriarchy from them. It really made me sad, because I've been really good friends with them and been able to have philosophically relevant discussions about other topics, but this was really difficult.

I think a lot of it is an "if you aren't with us, you're against us" attitude. It doesn't matter if you still believe in treating people equally regardless of gender, if you don't support feminism, you are automatically against gender equality. That is how most people see it, since most people are thoroughly convinced that feminism also opposes double standards that are detrimental to men.

 

I'm curious Hannah, since you are a lady, did these male friends admonish you in any way. Like suggest you were wrong in your perception (if you gave it). Or perhaps were you just on a fact finding mission with these chaps? Which is fine of course.My experience is that when a women suggests an alternative (to feminism) to men ensconced in this ideology, they get confused and attempt to placate. Call me nosy, was just interested in your experience.

[J. D. Stembal]

Yeah, I kept running into that. Every time I gave an example like #killallmen, or feminists saying that boys should be castrated because they are potential rapists, they kept saying "No, but that isn't really feminism." In order for me to continue the conversation, I had to hedge and refer to them as "radical feminists" and make the argument that it is troubling that they are gaining more clout in the feminist community. Our definitions of what feminists, radical feminists, and MRAs are were completely different and unable to be reconciled.

 

This is what really infuriates me. When trying to discuss the imbalances of state endorsed feminism, the casual feminist, which really should call himself a humanist, will say "No, feminism is about equality for everyone. The examples that you are citing are just crazy people on the internet." It's a casual dismissal of academic feminism as a threat. The more radical elements don't have a connection to the real world since they hide behind hash tags, forums, and media movements like "Ban Bossy". Feminists aren't willing to hold other feminists accountable for the damage their ideology causes. Yet, when a troubled individual like Elliot Rodger kills some people, he's somehow linked through the mainstream media to the men's rights movement. I've never heard about a case where an out-spoken men's rights activist has acted in a violent manner.

 

Instead of solidarity, we have bloggers like Zaron Burnett III writing to men so we understand that rape is solely our fault and we need to act now to remedy this misery for women. I've written a response to his A Gentleman's Guide to Rape Culture. I'll link to it in this tread when I get it up.

[hannahbanana]

I'm curious Hannah, since you are a lady, did these male friends admonish you in any way. Like suggest you were wrong in your perception (if you gave it). Or perhaps were you just on a fact finding mission with these chaps? Which is fine of course.My experience is that when a women suggests an alternative (to feminism) to men ensconced in this ideology, they get confused and attempt to placate. Call me nosy, was just interested in your experience.

Thanks for asking we actually had the conversation because my SO recently got into a heated fb conversation about men's rights after someone said "this is why all MRAs should be shot" in response to a feminist article, and my friend agreed with him. My SO spoke up about how messed up it was to say something like that, and my friend immediately took the "It was just a joke" approach. They brought it up with me, basically asking if I knew about it or thought my SO was being crazy or something. So I was defending him.

I think that they thought I didn't know anything about feminism or MRAs...which is funny, because that would be counter to anything they knew about me for the past 7 years (I was previously pretty in to the common idea of feminism before learning more about it, don't typically make assumptions about things I know nothing about, am a fairly intelligent person, etc.) They approached the conversation as if I was just picking their brains about things, but I think they were uncomfortable and a bit worried about me being brainwashed by my SO or something. It's very troubling for me, as we've been good friends for quite a while.

[PatrickC]

It's very troubling for me, as we've been good friends for quite a while.

 

Thanks for sharing. Yes, they certainly go a lot easier on you if you are a lady, as I suspected. That said, of course he is a friend as well, which hopefully would instil more curiosity on his part perhaps.

 

As a man you have to be able to weather considerable shaming and insults from male feminists (and female ones of course). These days I find something particularly degrading when I hear another man support feminism or even just support women no matter what they do. I can no longer have these men in my life, because I know they have the potential to betray me for the charms of a female.

 

but I think they were uncomfortable and a bit worried about me being brainwashed by my SO or something.

 

What is 'SO'?

[Bouncelot]

What is 'SO'?

 

Significant Other.

 

Or Superior Officer ;P (Bad joke)

[hannahbanana]

Yeah, significant other...

[Lars]

While not exclusive to male feminists, they do seem rather Immune to statistical/logical counter-evidence against their claims. There isn't really much to be said, so it's best to disengage.As Feminist ideology continues to rip apart the stability of nuclear families and men from women in general, I expect people to abandon it out of necessity... lest disaster?

[Psychophant]

Can i just point out here that chivallry or 'knightly behavior' has very few perscriptions for behavior towards women except "don't kill them", and most of its codes pertain towards not killing you fellow knights. It was an early convention to try to reign in mass violence in central europe. It is not very sexist, or mysoginstic unless you consider not killing women and children mysogny.

 

It has boiled down to submissive behaviour towards women and since concepts are not limited by their definitions, I am talking about the modern understanding of chivallry as it has manifesed itself in the real world - which was quite obvious. Chivallry is not just "Don´t kill women and children," cuz we ain´t knights anymore + You don´t need a concept like chivallry for not killing people anymore, cuz it is quite obvious that killing people aside from selfdefense is immoral. It is just an outdated concept that grants females preferential treatment they don´t deserve by default, just because of the accident of birth. It is not very sexist is like saying spanking your children once a month is just a little assault.

 

You act like a feminist who comes up with the dictionary definition if you criticise feminism as if a definition would be restrict reality.

 

 

 

@8:39 ... or play human toilet paper. Just for the perverts out there. 

 

@13:00 Get that I-reduce-chivallry-to-the-least-questionable-position guy? 

[fractional slacker]

Whenever I hear a man (or woman) declare "I am feminist," the first question I want to ask is compared to what?If you are working towards a free society, would you go around declaring yourself a republican, democrat, green? You might, but people would look at you like you had an arm growing out of your head because that terminology is only of use in a statist system.

 

I would challenge any self described feminist, including Stef, to explain why and how if those labels aren't of use in a free society, why are they are of use now?

[J. D. Stembal]

This is what really infuriates me. When trying to discuss the imbalances of state endorsed feminism, the casual feminist, which really should call himself a humanist, will say "No, feminism is about equality for everyone. The examples that you are citing are just crazy people on the internet." It's a casual dismissal of academic feminism as a threat. The more radical elements don't have a connection to the real world since they hide behind hash tags, forums, and media movements like "Ban Bossy". Feminists aren't willing to hold other feminists accountable for the damage their ideology causes. Yet, when a troubled individual like Elliot Rodger kills some people, he's somehow linked through the mainstream media to the men's rights movement. I've never heard about a case where an out-spoken men's rights activist has acted in a violent manner.

 

Instead of solidarity, we have bloggers like Zaron Burnett III writing to men so we understand that rape is solely our fault and we need to act now to remedy this misery for women. I've written a response to his A Gentleman's Guide to Rape Culture. I'll link to it in this tread when I get it up.

 

Here's a link to my rebuttal to Zaron Burnett III's A Gentleman's Guide to Rape Culture. I desire any and all feedback.

 

http://www.endtheusurpation.com/home/?p=9