adam0101 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 My personal journey of self-improvement has been great and I wouldn't give it up for anything, but I have ran into a problem that I'm not sure how to overcome. Philosophy has ruined my appetite for the trivial. I am finding it hard to relate to others who only seem interested in talking about completely unimportant topics. Recently, I was out with a group that my wife had put together. It started out well enough, but then the other men in the group started talking about sports, and I mean every statistic of every player of every sport at every level. While they talked, I kept thinking to myself over and over "who fucking cares?!" I mean, seriously, what is the appeal of memorizing tons of information like this? I just had to sit and listen to them go on and on, unable to contribute to the conversation since I wasn't lucky enough to have wasted countless hours learning this useless info like the other guys had. When it finally sounded like they were ready to change the subject, they discovered that they play the same online video game. Then it was all about quests, strategies, how many virtual gold coins they've collected, even the color of the clothes of their virtual characters. I was, once again, excluded from the conversation because it revolved around topics that I could care less about. When I attempt to steer the conversation to topics that not so inconsequential, I'm either met with resistance or ignored. I understand that, especially at a party, people don't want to be dragged down into a long deep conversation, but is there any other alternative than to start spewing trite sound bites? It seems evident that in group social settings, unless I am willing to partake in the latest celebrity gossip or some other pathetically shallow subject, I'm doomed to be labeled as the boring buzzkill of the party. Has anyone been successful in a social setting where they didn't have to resort to baa'ing like the other sheep? If so, what sorts of things did you talk about? Any other useful tips would also be appreciated. Thanks. 2
Culain Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I think the most painful thing about these conversations is that it only reaffirms for me their ability to think, but their moral cowardice to apply it in life. You watch as they apply every rule of logic and scientific theory to their roster building, predictions, and competitive strategies; then you continue watching as they surgically dissect the fallacies of opposing parties through debating about the issues. But then the moment you bring something which actually has importance to their lives and suddenly that logical side of them evaporates, they make every fallacy which they just spent a minute previously combating. The hypocrisy is sickening. 2
luxfelix Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Ah, but perhaps it is a matter of perspective: Can you take the trivial and transmute it into the profound? Sports may not appeal to you, but what of the principles of fairness inherent in the game? Talk of virtual gold coins could put you to sleep, or provide you a segue into a discussion about virtual currencies like bitcoin. You don't have to be an enlightened buzzkill at parties; Conversation itself is a game of give and take. Do you still want to play?
ancapzeebo Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I feel the same way. If I start to speak my truth and people recoil, I just split and go get something to eat. Actually convinced a woman at a party that climate change is a hoax once. Took over an hour but it was worth it.
aro Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 climate change is a hoax I'm quite new to the forums, is this the general consensus in the FDR community?
powder Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I've got a tip: learn to be a friendly, empathetic, skilled communicator. your words: trivial, unimportant, inconsequential, useless, shallow, trite,... even if you don't say them to their faces people will know what you think and feel. It is easy to tell what matters to people, they like to spend a lot of time doing it and talking about it so for you to categorize their activities and interests in that kind of light will surely make you an unpopular person. that said, I am not one for what I call 'small talk' and do not engage in topics that are of no interest to me or that I have little or nothing to contribute. I may come across as aloof or rude to some people, but I am not very concerned about what other people think of me. I do have a number of things that I can chat about and I have had to develop social skills and conversational abilities because I did not learn any growing up. Still I try to be friendly and empathetic if I am stuck in a social situation and I have found ways to steer people into talking about themselves (cuz that is what everyone likes to do) in a way that is interesting. If it is a group setting and I am the odd man out (nothing to contribute of no interest in the topic) then I don't have a problem opting out. I hope that I do not come across as feeling superior or condescending though.
cynicist Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I'd say this indicates a lack of empathy on the part of others. I used to play a particular online game with friends and we would get together and talk strategy. The minute someone who didn't play joined the conversation I would shift it to something that they could relate to, knowing how frustrated/bored they would feel otherwise. If my friends tried to keep talking about the niche thing while someone who didn't understand was present I would feel distinctly uncomfortable continuing.... that is unless we decided to try and explain it in laymans terms or focus on some small aspect the other person would appreciate. For example, if we're talking about programming and a non-programmer joins the conversation but has a blog or something, I might bridge the gap by asking about their experience working with that blog software and what they might wish was improved. I don't think this is limited to trivialities like sports/games. Any interest of yours could be considered boring by another person, and it indicates empathy to recognize when that happens and change the topic to something that you both find joy in. If you share no common interests, then what would keep you talking to them? 7
ancapzeebo Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 I'm quite new to the forums, is this the general consensus in the FDR community? I'm new too, but Stefan speaks about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gDErDwXqhc I agree with him. 1
RuralRon Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 I wasn't sure Stefan concluded "climate change" wasn't empirically real, but I agree with him if so. But back to the OP, I couldn't have said it better than Robert, but Powder pointed out the signals given in the choice of words used here to describe the conversation. Even if you don't use those words in such conversations, people have a way of picking up on your underlying attitude, such as through body language, lack of attentiveness (looking away, lack of eye contact), attempts to change the subject etc.
Wuzzums Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 I'm quite new to the forums, is this the general consensus in the FDR community? Climate change is a fact, it happens several times over the course of a year since the Earth first came into being. What Stefan is referring to is the propaganda associated with it, i.e. the whole planet is changing and it's our fault and we have to fix it through climate change study grants. Come to think of it, this climate change snake oil shtick only mostly affects young people. They're too young to remember when "climate change" was called "the new ice age", then "the green house effect", then "global warming", then "global cooling" and now finally "climate change". The only progress which was made in the field is in regards to branding. Has anyone been successful in a social setting where they didn't have to resort to baa'ing like the other sheep? If so, what sorts of things did you talk about? Any other useful tips would also be appreciated. Thanks. I often find that cynical humor helps. For instance, you find sports dull and the other people don't. You could chime in your opinion about sports through a joke like "You've seen a match, you've seen them all, it's just different people winning". Or someone's hates some team, you could ask what color are their jerseys and then go "Yeah, I dislike green as much as you do, they should all die". Or they play some online video game and they talk about strategies and you could go "Oh, that game is easy, I figured out the winning strategy in a fraction of a second: not playing". This way you're making them aware of your perspective without them feeling like you're attacking them. And if they do have empathy, they will attempt to find some common ground with you. 1
luxfelix Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Two short books I'd recommend for this subject: How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie http://mwpartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/how-to-win-friends.jpg -And- Truth in Comedy by Charna Halpern & Del Close http://justinlukasewicz.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/truth-in-comedy.jpg
Bouncelot Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 My GF once noted "We always talk serious!" (Not a complaint, more of an observation). To which I responded, "Shallow conversation is for shallow relationships." The fact that I don't stoop to that level around you is a sign of respect. That said, there is a time and place for everything. I was recently at a friends BBQ, I met some great people, some of whom I saw a potential friends, they were very real, and fascinated by my tat (I swear on my life, and my love of it... etc...). But a large mixed group of people, at a light event is not the best time to start a deep discussion on the non aggression principal. instead, sometimes you need to keep things light, focus on who they are, get to know who has the potential for deeper discussions at a later date. Plus, there is nothing like a 4am after party that dives deep into real topics!
RuralRon Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Climate change is a fact, it happens several times over the course of a year since the Earth first came into being. What Stefan is referring to is the propaganda associated with it, i.e. the whole planet is changing and it's our fault and we have to fix it through climate change study grants. I think you need to be clear on what you mean by "Climate change". Obviously the climate changes, more in some places than others. I totally agree that there is tons of propaganda around this topic, especially by governments to further their enslavement / control agendas. I met a guy a couple of months ago, very intelligent and someone whom I have a significant respect for his scientific knowledge. But he couldn't answer my questions on his stance of climate change, or acknowledge the propaganda (i.e. the East Anglia email exposure) and the reasons why governments want to create fear & panic over just about anything. Back to the main topic. In my twenties & early thirties I had the very same apprehension and difficulty about shallow conversations, and I often alienated people by bringing up issues about the U.S. tax system. It was a very difficult habit to change, but I finally realized there were more important things to focus on and other tactics and strategies to educate people and effect change. Ultimately the only change you're in control of is over your own life through the decisions you make. What others do in relation to that (if anything) are up to them. Live your values and let the chips fall where they may. Living your values is plenty to take care of in itself. That's mainly why I'm here, to make sure my values abide by the NAP and progress to a level of love and true virtue for myself as well as towards others. 1
luxfelix Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 My GF once noted "We always talk serious!" (Not a complaint, more of an observation). To which I responded, "Shallow conversation is for shallow relationships." The fact that I don't stoop to that level around you is a sign of respect. That said, there is a time and place for everything. I was recently at a friends BBQ, I met some great people, some of whom I saw a potential friends, they were very real, and fascinated by my tat (I swear on my life, and my love of it... etc...). But a large mixed group of people, at a light event is not the best time to start a deep discussion on the non aggression principal. instead, sometimes you need to keep things light, focus on who they are, get to know who has the potential for deeper discussions at a later date. Plus, there is nothing like a 4am after party that dives deep into real topics! Ah, cool beans Bouncelot! -- and I'd bet that, even the shallow conversation had deep body language. In other words, sometimes a stronger connection can be made with small talk, a smile, and attentive eyes than a lengthy discussion with someone else in profile with their arms crossed and a wandering gaze. I hope you get a chance to meet back up with your BBQ acquaintances.
Josh F Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 What makes hobbies or someone's choice of entertainment trite or meaningless? I am equally as clueless about sports, so I get that it is boring when someone talks about a subject you're not interested in, but it is not meaningless.
luxfelix Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 What makes hobbies or someone's choice of entertainment trite or meaningless? I am equally as clueless about sports, so I get that it is boring when someone talks about a subject you're not interested in, but it is not meaningless. I agree.
percentient Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 I often find that cynical humor helps. For instance, you find sports dull and the other people don't. You could chime in your opinion about sports through a joke like "You've seen a match, you've seen them all, it's just different people winning". Or someone's hates some team, you could ask what color are their jerseys and then go "Yeah, I dislike green as much as you do, they should all die". Or they play some online video game and they talk about strategies and you could go "Oh, that game is easy, I figured out the winning strategy in a fraction of a second: not playing". These are great examples! I'm pretty sure that when humor was invented, this is the sort of things that were said. Climate change is not a hoax and I haven't found that stance to be a consensus here. Also, the story has not changed much as far as science goes. It's just that the media reports on things with bias. (When global temperatures cooled, the scientific consensus was always on the warming side, but some people were worried that it was going to lead us to a new ice age -- global cooling. Now there's a pause in warming, and interest in media has dropped. The scientific consensus is that carbon dioxide may have a net positive economic effect up to three degrees of warming or so, but you don't hear about that a lot, instead climate change is almost uniformly portrayed as a disaster.)
endostate Posted August 21, 2014 Posted August 21, 2014 Has anyone been successful in a social setting where they didn't have to resort to baa'ing like the other sheep? If so, what sorts of things did you talk about? Any other useful tips would also be appreciated. Thanks. I found David Logan's talk called Tribal Leadership to be helpful. He divides people conversing at parties into tribes which fit into 5 stages of evolution: Stage 1 - Life sucksStage 2 - My life sucksStage 3 - I'm great, you suckStage 4 - We're greatStage 5 - Life's greatDavid Logan: Tribal Leadership (16:36) - Ted Talkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTkKSJSqU-IAlso: "Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people." --Eleanor Roosevelt
hannahbanana Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I go to parties with some of my old high school friends occasionally, about 3 or 4 times a year. It's interesting, because even though we sort of avoid intense conversations about religion/government, we DO talk a lot about relationships and people-to-people interactions that we've all had. In this way, I feel like I can express my views, since how I view my relationship with the government is essentially how I view relationships with people on an individual level. Also OP, the conversation may be boring you for a reason other than it not being "deep" or "philosophical." From what you said, you obviously have no interest in sports, or the video game they were talking about. True, they are not particularly deep topics, but maybe they were also boring because you knew nothing about it. I HATE talking about sports or pop culture, but if it's a book or TV show that I really like, that's a different story. Here's another thought - do you have anyone at all that you can talk philosophy with in person? It's practically all I do with my significant other, and for me, it can act as a sort of buffer when I interact with other people; just knowing that I could talk to my SO about important topics makes me feel less stressed out about talking about other things, because if I had an important thought, I could always bring it up with him later.
massaki Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Op Maybe you feel that way, because you don't talk about the things that are important to you enough. I remember I felt that way before going to fdr meetings, but after i was able to hold conversations about my passions and listen to others be it sports or gaming, etc I felt more free and relaxed and i showed curiosity and asked questions. Like, why do you like this sport? oh really why do you think that is? What your favorite thing about the sport? Stuff like that. I think you didnt ask these questions because you didnt care about these people you were talking to. Did you like them as people? Did your wife force you to go? Do you and your wife talk about the important things a lot and in depth?
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