NonPatrician Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I was just listening to "Death Penalty Parasitism" on YouTube and Stefan said, "...and where restitution is impossible forgiveness is impossible." Is forgiveness somehow based on something outside of ourselves; out of our control? Not sure I understand this one... Thanks.
jpahmad Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Restitution is an adequate compensation for a loss. It's up to the offended party to define what is "adequate." For some it might be $10,000 and for others it might be a hug and a kiss. Both are forms of restitution. I can't for the life of me think of a situation where I could forgive someone without compensation that I deem emotionally satisfying. 1
luxfelix Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Perhaps forgiving people who haven't earned/sought forgiveness results in inflation for social capital?
MMX2010 Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Stef has used this example a lot: (1) If someone gets caught stealing your bike, and offers to pay you $1,000,000, you'd gladly accept. But, by gladly accepting, you emotionally feel that your bike was worth far less than $1,000,000. And so you're profiting from the "theft" of your bike, which is now converted to a purchase of it. (2) If someone gets caught stealing your bike, and offers to pay you $1, you'd get angry. And your anger means that you feel your bike is worth more than $1. (3) Therefore, there must be a specific amount of money, X-dollars, wherein you feel neither overjoyed nor angered to receive after someone is caught stealing your bike. That specific emotional reaction indicates that restitution has been provided and that you'll automatically feel forgiveness because restitution has been provided. I haven't heard the podcast you're referring to. But I'm guessing Stef is arguing that there is no amount of money you could receive from someone who murders your lover to make you feel that restitution has been made. 2
PatrickC Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Understanding forgiveness from a philosophical position is understandably difficult in our culture. As it's often invoked for all the wrong reasons. But like love is an involuntary response to virtue, so too is forgiveness. Where someone has murdered your wife let's say, than yes, it's probably unlikely that you or anyone else could feel forgiveness for such a person. Since as you suggest, restitution is next to impossible. Even ten million dollars wouldn't suffice compared to losing a life partner or mother to your children. Also more importantly, restitution' is just a way of resolving the issues of personal damages. It can't and shouldn't be considered as a reason to forgive. A perpetrator would probably have to go much further than mere restitution before a victim might forgive them. After restitution would come an apology and thereafter a concerted effort to change their previous behaviour. As I've said before on this topic, forgiveness is completely involuntary. It is wholly dependent on the actions of the perpetrator after the event. In some cases this may never happen, such as the murder of a loved one. 3
LovePrevails Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I don't think it particularly is, it depends on so many factors - just how impossible restitution is, how bad the crime was, how sorry the person really is, how they communicate it, what they are willing to do, how much they are willing to change and prove their commitment, whether they are willing to step up and prevent similar things happening to other people, and what your personal standards are. There is research on forgiveness, Dr. Sue Johnson explains the only kind of apology that really seems to work: 1
mikl Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I don't think that video contradicts what Stef was saying. Restitution is not necessarily money, it can be actions, like what Dr. Johnson describes. So if that kind of really sincere apology and change of behaviour is enough to make someone feel forgiveness towards the perpetrator, that is fine. But in some cases (like rape, violence, murder, etc.), no amount of apologies and changed future behaviour can offset the emotional or physical damage someone has done to you. And in those cases, forgiveness is not possible. That is all.
LovePrevails Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 just to mention, I didn't claim the video contradicts what Stef says I posted it as relevant and useful information
NonPatrician Posted August 23, 2014 Author Posted August 23, 2014 Wow guys... So many excellent responses. Thank you so much for taking the time. I understand better now and it makes perfect sense. I have taught my daughter for years that there are three parts to a true apology. 1. Admission of guilt / take ownership of situation. 2. Show genuine remorse, empathy... Apologize sincerely. 3. Make up for it. Replace what was broken, take steps to fix bad situations created, etc. I think #3 should be modified to something like, "Provide restitution to the satisfaction of those harmed however possible; within reason of course." It makes sense for forgiveness to be as involuntary as love. I wonder what other emotions could be more clearly described in this way... Thanks again everyone.
LovePrevails Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 here is another useful video that differentiates between exoneration, forebearance and release. he cautions on the "Light on Crime" side
Psychophant Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 1. Admission of guilt / take ownership of situation. Guilt is an theological concept, there is only responsibility. 2. Show genuine remorse, empathy... Apologize sincerely. 3. Make up for it. Replace what was broken, take steps to fix bad situations created, etc. I think #3 should be modified to something like, "Provide restitution to the satisfaction of those harmed however possible; within reason of course." It makes sense for forgiveness to be as involuntary as love. I wonder what other emotions could be more clearly described in this way... Thanks again everyone. Since forgiveness is a feeling, you can skip all over it. You cannot order your feelings arround, that doesn't mean you cannot forgive a killer - given the feeling is genuine. Perhaps forgiving people who haven't earned/sought forgiveness results in inflation for social capital? They have "earned" it if you feel a particular way. 1 1
Devon Gibbons Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 Because if forgiveness is possible when restitution isn't, forgiveness is being ingenuous. But like love is an involuntary response to virtue, so too is forgiveness. Virtue's path is a straight one.
wigins Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 Guilt is an theological concept, there is only responsibility. According to wikipedia, it's an emotion: Guilt is a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes—accurately or not—that he or she has compromised his or her own standards of conduct or has violated a moral standard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation. It is closely related to the concept of remorse. Do you not experience guilt? 2
prolix Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 According to wikipedia, it's an emotion: Guilt is a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes—accurately or not—that he or she has compromised his or her own standards of conduct or has violated a moral standard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation. It is closely related to the concept of remorse. Do you not experience guilt? Hey wigins, let me quote you from Joe Rogan's message board where you perpetually hurl vitriol at Stefan; Jesus Christ, what a retard.. I seriously wonder if this guy is a nutjob......... The crazy-o-meter tilts more towards batshit every video I see of him. http://forums.joerogan.net/showpost.php?p=17231912&postcount=984 Is that you or is the username just a coincidence? 1 1
wigins Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 Hey wigins, let me quote you from Joe Rogan's message board where you perpetually hurl vitriol at Stefan; http://forums.joerogan.net/showpost.php?p=17231912&postcount=984 Is that you or is the username just a coincidence? No, it's me. I apologize for being rude on another forum.. I can't promise I wont continue to say things this community probably disagrees with on my own time, or on other message boards. But I can promise, on the freedomainradio boards, i'll continue to be civil and polite. If I ever break that promise, then the mods should justifiably ban me.
prolix Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 Well, people should know where you head is at and how you behave elsewhere regardless of what you pretend to be here...
wigins Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 Well, people should know where you head is at and how you behave elsewhere regardless of what you pretend to be here... That's fine. You can judge the content of my posts for what they are without appealing to the character of the person posting them. 1
prolix Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 That's fine. You can judge the content of my posts for what they are without appealing to the character of the person posting them. 1 2
powder Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 Understanding forgiveness from a philosophical position is understandably difficult in our culture. As it's often invoked for all the wrong reasons. But like love is an involuntary response to virtue, so too is forgiveness. Where someone has murdered your wife let's say, than yes, it's probably unlikely that you or anyone else could feel forgiveness for such a person. Since as you suggest, restitution is next to impossible. Even ten million dollars wouldn't suffice compared to losing a life partner or mother to your children. Also more importantly, restitution' is just a way of resolving the issues of personal damages. It can't and shouldn't be considered as a reason to forgive. A perpetrator would probably have to go much further than mere restitution before a victim might forgive them. After restitution would come an apology and thereafter a concerted effort to change their previous behaviour. As I've said before on this topic, forgiveness is completely involuntary. It is wholly dependent on the actions of the perpetrator after the event. In some cases this may never happen, such as the murder of a loved one. thanks Patrick, I really get this, I find it to be very true that forgiveness is an involuntary reaction. It has certainly cut thru a lot of the nonsense that you get, esp from some counselors, regarding how forgiveness is experienced and practiced. So how do you respond to the commonly preached notion that forgiveness is for the victim so that they can 'let it go', release the anger and bitterness that 'eats you up on the inside'. 1
MMX2010 Posted August 23, 2014 Posted August 23, 2014 So how do you respond to the commonly preached notion that forgiveness is for the victim so that they can 'let it go', release the anger and bitterness that 'eats you up on the inside'. I know you didn't ask me, but I find Stefan's admonitions that you're not supposed to let go of your anger and bitterness. Earlier in my FDR "career", I would've tried to reason such people out of this position. But now I just view them as dangerous individuals who are best avoided at all costs. (Seriously, those people would rather let the adult victims of child abuse die miserable deaths than change their minds about forgiveness.)
powder Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 I know you didn't ask me, but I find Stefan's admonitions that you're not supposed to let go of your anger and bitterness. Earlier in my FDR "career", I would've tried to reason such people out of this position. But now I just view them as dangerous individuals who are best avoided at all costs. (Seriously, those people would rather let the adult victims of child abuse die miserable deaths than change their minds about forgiveness.) thanks for responding MMX. Not sure if I understand your position. can you finish the first sentence? "...but I find (Stefan's position that ... ).... What exactly? and the second sentence. "reason such people out of this position" which position? and who exactly is best avoided? sorry, wasn't clear to me.
PatrickC Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 So how do you respond to the commonly preached notion that forgiveness is for the victim so that they can 'let it go', release the anger and bitterness that 'eats you up on the inside'. Well, it offers the victim a false sense of virtue and given the reprehensibly poor way the state ascribes proper restitution for them. Some victims will feel it gives them some pride back, particularly if they can express their decision to forgive publicly.
MMX2010 Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 thanks for responding MMX. Not sure if I understand your position. can you finish the first sentence? "...but I find (Stefan's position that ... ).... What exactly? and the second sentence. "reason such people out of this position" which position? and who exactly is best avoided? sorry, wasn't clear to me. My fault. Your question was, "How do you respond to the commonly preached notion that forgiveness is for the victim so that they can 'let it go', release the anger and bitterness that 'eats you up on the inside'?" First, I remember well Stefan's exhortation to hold on you my anger and bitterness, because they're trying to protect me from further harm. Secondly, earlier in my FDR "career", I would've tried to convince people who preach that common notion not to believe that way anymore. But now I find that common notion so entrenched that I just avoid everyone who believes it. (Think about it: those people would rather let the adult victims of childhood die miserable deaths than change their mind about anger and bitterness eating people up inside.)
powder Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 Well, it offers the victim a false sense of virtue and given the reprehensibly poor way the state ascribes proper restitution for them. Some victims will feel it gives them some pride back, particularly if they can express their decision to forgive publicly. My fault. Your question was, "How do you respond to the commonly preached notion that forgiveness is for the victim so that they can 'let it go', release the anger and bitterness that 'eats you up on the inside'?" First, I remember well Stefan's exhortation to hold on you my anger and bitterness, because they're trying to protect me from further harm. Secondly, earlier in my FDR "career", I would've tried to convince people who preach that common notion not to believe that way anymore. But now I find that common notion so entrenched that I just avoid everyone who believes it. (Think about it: those people would rather let the adult victims of childhood die miserable deaths than change their mind about anger and bitterness eating people up inside.) Interesting, so we are often told the anger and bitterness we hold onto is 'unhealthy' on some many levels, and you guys are saying that is not the case? Letting it go, or trying to, gives us a false sense of pride or virtue and it is actually there to protect us from further hurt? But isn't it unpleasant to feel bitter and angry, why not purge that instead and learn from the lesson to protect yourself? I am just parroting the commonly preached rhetoric here, but I have never considered that it wasn't somehow valid, though it never did feel right to me.
Kevin Beal Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 Also, from a practical standpoint, when restitution is impossible, people are almost guaranteed to double down since the emotional pain they would have to experience would be far greater than the pain of continuing to diminish and trivialize the pain of the victim (if only in their own minds). These people do feel ambivalence though, if they have even half a heart. But what I've seen time and time again are the bullshit non apologies (BNAPs). They say sorry for the purpose of relieving themselves of their own guilt at the expense of the truth and the person they wronged. "I'm sorry you feel that way", "I'm sorry for whatever it is you think I did", saying sorry and then doing it again, demonstrating that the apology was without true empathy and consideration. I mean, just imagine how guilty you feel for accidentally stepping on your dogs foot and you hear them yelp. I feel terrible! Then imagine repeatedly abusing a child over a decade and witnessing them turn delinquent and depressed. That's infinitely worse than stepping on a dog's foot. I think that if you think that people who do things for which restitution is impossible, can be expected to really deeply apologize from the bottom of their hearts and work to do whatever they can to prevent future tragedy, etc, I don't think you are really empathizing with them. If they have any empathy at all, it will be a torture worse than hell to be relentlessly honest about, and if they have no empathy, then get as far away as you possibly can! 2
DaVinci Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 Wow guys... So many excellent responses. Thank you so much for taking the time. I understand better now and it makes perfect sense. I have taught my daughter for years that there are three parts to a true apology. 1. Admission of guilt / take ownership of situation. 2. Show genuine remorse, empathy... Apologize sincerely. 3. Make up for it. Replace what was broken, take steps to fix bad situations created, etc. I think #3 should be modified to something like, "Provide restitution to the satisfaction of those harmed however possible; within reason of course." It makes sense for forgiveness to be as involuntary as love. I wonder what other emotions could be more clearly described in this way... Thanks again everyone.The only thing I would add to that list is that the person responsible for the situation expresses a genuine desire to not repeat the behavior. Too many times people apologize, and even provide restitution just so they can hurt you again. The apology retroactively becomes manipulation.
MMX2010 Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 But isn't it unpleasant to feel bitter and angry, why not purge that instead and learn from the lesson to protect yourself? To me, "purging" means that you forcibly eject the anger and bitterness from your life. I think this is impossible. In my life, the things which makes me most bitter and angry are those which remind me of my abusive father. So whenever I see (or read) something that sides with him, I instantly feel bitter and angry. Yes, this is unpleasant - but it's much healthier than not feeling this way. The anger and bitterness lasts however long it's supposed to late, and then I find myself happy - provided nothing triggers my anger and bitterness. On balance, I'm only angry and bitter like 10% of my day. (Which means that anyone who says my anger/bitterness will "eat me up inside" didn't know what they were talking about...) ------------------------ Overall, I think the common rhetoric means, "Look, you can either forcibly reject your feelings of anger/ bitterness OR you can forcibly reject me - your abusive parent! And, as your abusive parent, I think you should reject your anger/bitterness!"
st434u Posted August 24, 2014 Posted August 24, 2014 Stef has used this example a lot Yes, Rothbard made that point about the optimal level of legal restitution. It is the level at which the victim is left feeling neutral towards the act of aggression/fraud of which they were the victim. Of course, this level is impossible to ascertain precisely in a court of law, but the legal system should strive to get to a situation where the average victim is left as close to that level as possible. This is why I am for the death penalty in cases of murder, rape and torture. It is also why I believe that prisons should not exist.
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