DCLugi Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 If one makes a human moral claim then it applies to all humans at all times simply because the human being is fundamentally the same regardless of culture, nation or costume etc. So if I claim that murder is moral then I accept that it is good for me to be murdered. However, the very definition of murder is to not want to be killed. If I want someone to kill me then it's not murder. This is where it fails. I can't want to be murdered and not want to be killed simultaneously. If I make the claim that murder is immoral then it logically and consistently works and the same applies to rape and theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slavik Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 If one makes a human moral claim then it applies to all humans at all times simply because the human being is fundamentally the same regardless of culture, nation or costume etc. So if I claim that murder is moral then I accept that it is good for me to be murdered. However, the very definition of murder is to not want to be killed. If I want someone to kill me then it's not murder. This is where it fails. I can't want to be murdered and not want to be killed simultaneously. If I make the claim that murder is immoral then it logically and consistently works and the same applies to rape and theft. Im not sure what you mean by "it fails" If you mean the argument for UPB in your proposed explanation, then I do not see how it fails. If you want someone to kill you its no longer murder, its called assisted suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCLugi Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 Im not sure what you mean by "it fails" If you mean the argument for UPB in your proposed explanation, then I do not see how it fails. If you want someone to kill you its not longer murder, its called assisted suicide. Sorry I should have been clearer. "This is where it fails" refers to murder being moral. I'm arguing for UPB and wondered if this was a good way to express it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDB Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Please add the tag "UPB" to this thread. only the OP may do so. If one makes a human moral claim then it applies to all humans at all times simply because the human being is fundamentally the same regardless of culture, nation or costume etc. But why are we fundamentally the same in spite of these differences? If The moral claim is stated as a general argument about humans, it applies to all humans. Whatever claim can be made for specific cultures, etc. seems like in can be made for all.So if I claim that murder is moral then I accept that it is good for me to be murdered. However, the very definition of murder is to not want to be killed. If I want someone to kill me then it's not murder. This is where it fails. I can't want to be murdered and not want to be killed simultaneously. Why must you want to be killed if it is good to be killed? If we always wanted what is good, morality would not be much of a problem.There are many discussions of UPB on the forum, the ones with the tag can be found by following this link:https://board.freedomainradio.com/tags/forums/upb/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelS Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 UPB in one sentence: it is immoral to act on the property of another without consent. Obviously that includes the self as it's own property. The difference between moral and immoral acts lies entirely in (informed?) consent. Lovemakeing vs rape, giving vs theft, assisted suicide vs murder, it all comes down to the preference of the one who's property is being acted upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSDev Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Sorry I should have been clearer. "This is where it fails" refers to murder being moral. I'm arguing for UPB and wondered if this was a good way to express it.You've just restated the principle, verbatim. Stefan talks about that all the time. It's impossible for things like rape and murder to be universally preferable behavior, since the moment they are preferable they cease to be rape and murder. Therefore, not raping and not murdering are universally preferable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCLugi Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Please add the tag "UPB" to this thread. only the OP may do so.But why are we fundamentally the same in spite of these differences? If The moral claim is stated as a general argument about humans, it applies to all humans. Whatever claim can be made for specific cultures, etc. seems like in can be made for all.Why must you want to be killed if it is good to be killed? If we always wanted what is good, morality would not be much of a problem.There are many discussions of UPB on the forum, the ones with the tag can be found by following this link:https://board.freedomainradio.com/tags/forums/upb/ Thanks for responding. Are you raising these questions to bring clarity to my original post? How does one add a tag? Cheers. You've just restated the principle, verbatim. Stefan talks about that all the time. It's impossible for things like rape and murder to be universally preferable behavior, since the moment they are preferable they cease to be rape and murder. Therefore, not raping and not murdering are universally preferable. Great. I'm making an effort to express it as clearly as possible but sometimes me not talk so goodly with word stuff:) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDB Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Thanks for responding. Are you raising these questions to bring clarity to my original post?My first question was more clarification, the second I have a genuine problem. You jump from "it is good for me to be killed" to "I want to be killed" and I don't see how you got there.I once took a stab at summarizing UPB in a UPB FAQ: http://brimpossible.blogspot.com/2014/05/upb-faq-02.htmlHow does one add a tag?Edit your original post. The field beneath the title field should be the tags field or something similar. Type "UPB" in there without quotation marks and save. The UPB tag should show up and be linked to a search, and your new entry should show up at the top of the search. You've just restated the principle, verbatim. Stefan talks about that all the time. It's impossible for things like rape and murder to be universally preferable behavior, since the moment they are preferable they cease to be rape and murder. Therefore, not raping and not murdering are universally preferable.This is one of he things that confuses me. "Preferable" is being used in two different senses. One has to do with consent, if I consent to be killed it is not murder, it is assisted suicide, euthanasia, and if both parties consent to sex it is not rape. The other sense has to do with means and ends, cause and effect. If you want to achieve X, it is preferable that you Y. If you go through old forum posts you will find me ranting and railing about how confusing and unnecessary this terminology is. I think Stef could have written the entire book without using the word "preferable" and increased the clarity of the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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