(Interesting Video) Understanding Men and Women; Why They See Things Differently

[Bortasz]

[villagewisdom]

I could definitely get the man to woman example of listen and ask questions. It takes effort for a man to do that in my experience. And I have to ask and ask a lot of times and remain calm while asking and not come across as nagging. So I can see the desire and action there on the man's part to contribute to and grow the relationship by going outside of his comfort zone. But the example of the woman to man seemed condescending to me. I think the concept was valid but I didn't see the same desire to love her man as I saw in the example of the man loving the woman. I am a woman so maybe I missed something. But I distinctly remember my mother doing something like this. But as I watched her with my child eyes, I could tell she was just placating my dad and not really respecting him. She thought of him as just too dumb to know any better and so she just let it go. I know this had an effect on me as evidenced by my lack of respect for men in my early relationships. I still struggle with it a lot. I do not believe that it is unique to my mother and subsequently to me. I believe that attitude is quite widespread in the feminine among us. And I say that because of the current war on men being waged by feminists and some of the stuff that comes out of their mouths. 

 

In my experience a better example for the woman's scenario would have been to acknowledge that he brought her the fish. Acknowledge the things that he does for her. 

 

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts. What do you think? 

[J. D. Stembal]

I could definitely get the man to woman example of listen and ask questions. It takes effort for a man to do that in my experience. And I have to ask and ask a lot of times and remain calm while asking and not come across as nagging. So I can see the desire and action there on the man's part to contribute to and grow the relationship by going outside of his comfort zone. But the example of the woman to man seemed condescending to me. I think the concept was valid but I didn't see the same desire to love her man as I saw in the example of the man loving the woman. I am a woman so maybe I missed something. But I distinctly remember my mother doing something like this. But as I watched her with my child eyes, I could tell she was just placating my dad and not really respecting him. She thought of him as just too dumb to know any better and so she just let it go. I know this had an effect on me as evidenced by my lack of respect for men in my early relationships. I still struggle with it a lot. I do not believe that it is unique to my mother and subsequently to me. I believe that attitude is quite widespread in the feminine among us. And I say that because of the current war on men being waged by feminists and some of the stuff that comes out of their mouths. 

 

In my experience a better example for the woman's scenario would have been to acknowledge that he brought her the fish. Acknowledge the things that he does for her. 

 

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts. What do you think? 

 

How does it take any more effort for a man to listen or ask question than it does for a woman to do the same? In my experience, women are easily the more fickle communicators. If she listens to a man speak more than twenty words in row, she is already losing interest - leaving the room, trying to wrestle control of the conversation back, or talking with somebody else, preferably another woman. In practice, the ideal conversation for a woman is to be the one talking, while the man sits on his hands holding eye contact, and periodically says "Uh, huh," "Exactly," or "Yes." If men try to deviate from this format to actually express their thoughts, beliefs or emotions, women start to feel threatened and insecure, desiring to flee to another conversation. I want to reiterate that this is just my personal experience and NAWALT is obviously a given. Biologically, we have grossly different communication styles that are often incompatible. 

 

The woman's desire for connection that Alison Armstrong describes is usually a one way street. Listen to her, sympathize with her, make her feel secure, but all bets are off if you are expecting her to reciprocate these behaviors for the man. Sharing my experience here probably says a lot about what kinds of women with which I have chosen to associate, but even amiable, easy-going women have these defensive tendencies. Very few women are taking an active interest in what men have to offer in the conversation.

[villagewisdom]

How does it take any more effort for a man to listen or ask question than it does for a woman to do the same? In my experience, women are easily the more fickle communicators. If she listens to a man speak more than twenty words in row, she is already losing interest - leaving the room, trying to wrestle control of the conversation back, or talking with somebody else, preferably another woman. In practice, the ideal conversation for a woman is to be the one talking, while the man sits on his hands holding eye contact, and periodically says "Uh, huh," "Exactly," or "Yes." If men try to deviate from this format to actually express their thoughts, beliefs or emotions, women start to feel threatened and insecure, desiring to flee to another conversation. I want to reiterate that this is just my personal experience and NAWALT is obviously a given. Biologically, we have grossly different communication styles that are often incompatible. 

 

The woman's desire for connection that Alison Armstrong describes is usually a one way street. Listen to her, sympathize with her, make her feel secure, but all bets are off if you are expecting her to reciprocate these behaviors for the man. Sharing my experience here probably says a lot about what kinds of women with which I have chosen to associate, but even amiable, easy-going women have these defensive tendencies. Very few women are taking an active interest in what men have to offer in the conversation.

 

You are describing the female communication style fairly accurately. We do tend to communicate more easily with other women but that is only because women understand how women communicate.

 

There is one correction that I would make. If you deviate from the "format" she is not feeling threatened and insecure. She is likely upset that you interrupted her unwinding mechanism and feels you are not listening to her. Women often talk to reduce stress. They do not want advice. They do not want whatever problem they are talking about to be fixed. They only want to talk until they run down. And they want empathy while they do it. You simply cannot have an intelligent conversation when she is in unwind mode. 

 

During the unwind you could try some questioning like Stef does on the call-in shows. "how does that feel?" "what are you feeling right now?" "wow, that sounds really painful". "I'm sorry you're having such a bad experience" "tell me more" and so on. Practice empathy. That would definitely help with getting the stress out. And would give her the opportunity to explore her emotions more deeply. You really only need to refrain from trying to fix the problem. It's about the emotions, not about the specific problems and situations that she is talking about. Those are just stories to move the emotion. 

[Bortasz]

You are describing the female communication style fairly accurately. We do tend to communicate more easily with other women but that is only because women understand how women communicate.

 

There is one correction that I would make. If you deviate from the "format" she is not feeling threatened and insecure. She is likely upset that you interrupted her unwinding mechanism and feels you are not listening to her. Women often talk to reduce stress. They do not want advice. They do not want whatever problem they are talking about to be fixed. They only want to talk until they run down. And they want empathy while they do it. You simply cannot have an intelligent conversation when she is in unwind mode. 

 

During the unwind you could try some questioning like Stef does on the call-in shows. "how does that feel?" "what are you feeling right now?" "wow, that sounds really painful". "I'm sorry you're having such a bad experience" "tell me more" and so on. Practice empathy. That would definitely help with getting the stress out. And would give her the opportunity to explore her emotions more deeply. You really only need to refrain from trying to fix the problem. It's about the emotions, not about the specific problems and situations that she is talking about. Those are just stories to move the emotion. 

Yeeee and we Men have problem when it comes to not fixing a problem. Because we are program to fixing a problem. Man talk to men about problem because he need help fixing a problem. Anything else is absurd.

 

Also my observation is that Man do, Women talk. The best example my father. He will never tell you what he feel. He will do something for you. Fix something, build something. It is easier.

[J. D. Stembal]

You are describing the female communication style fairly accurately. We do tend to communicate more easily with other women but that is only because women understand how women communicate.

 

There is one correction that I would make. If you deviate from the "format" she is not feeling threatened and insecure. She is likely upset that you interrupted her unwinding mechanism and feels you are not listening to her. Women often talk to reduce stress. They do not want advice. They do not want whatever problem they are talking about to be fixed. They only want to talk until they run down. And they want empathy while they do it. You simply cannot have an intelligent conversation when she is in unwind mode. 

 

During the unwind you could try some questioning like Stef does on the call-in shows. "how does that feel?" "what are you feeling right now?" "wow, that sounds really painful". "I'm sorry you're having such a bad experience" "tell me more" and so on. Practice empathy. That would definitely help with getting the stress out. And would give her the opportunity to explore her emotions more deeply. You really only need to refrain from trying to fix the problem. It's about the emotions, not about the specific problems and situations that she is talking about. Those are just stories to move the emotion. 

 

Do you understand how the female "unwind" method of communication lacks empathy for the other participants? Why is the man typically expected to use empathy with a woman when the man's feelings are not any of her concern? This perspective asks us to accept that men are unfeeling machines who can do a better job using empathy and that women are ruled by their emotions and cannot help it. I don't agree with this view. Men, indeed, have many emotions, if only we were allowed to express them in conversation. Also, women have the ability to control their emotions, and use empathy even if they are in "unwind" mode. To argue that they do not is to promote the infantilization of women. Empathy is universal. Both women and men need this tool in the conversational tool belt.

 

I have never tried to solve problems for a woman unless she specifically desires help with a solution. I understand that sometimes people talk just to vent, but when is it appropriate for the man to expect the same empathetic treatment in return?

[villagewisdom]

Do you understand how the female "unwind" method of communication lacks empathy for the other participants? Why is the man typically expected to use empathy with a woman when the man's feelings are not any of her concern? This perspective asks us to accept that men are unfeeling machines who can do a better job using empathy and that women are ruled by their emotions and cannot help it. I don't agree with this view. Men, indeed, have many emotions, if only we were allowed to express them in conversation. Also, women have the ability to control their emotions, and use empathy even if they are in "unwind" mode. To argue that they do not is to promote the infantilization of women. Empathy is universal. Both women and men need this tool in the conversational tool belt.

 

I have never tried to solve problems for a woman unless she specifically desires help with a solution. I understand that sometimes people talk just to vent, but when is it appropriate for the man to expect the same empathetic treatment in return?

 

Just curious. Do you consider yourself good at being empathetic?

[J. D. Stembal]

Just curious. Do you consider yourself good at being empathetic?

 

I know I am capable of it. I don't know how you become good at empathy. You either have it or you don't. You use it or you don't. I convinced my father to stop his wife from beating my nine year old brother with a belt. It took some painful soul searching to feel my brother's fear as my fear. This was the only way for me to muster the courage to stand up to my father. Empathy is not simply wearing someone's shoes for a time. It's experiencing the same feelings as your loved ones because they are part of you.

 

You have posed a curious question so I will turn it back at you. Would you consider me to be "good at empathy" from reading my posts in this thread?

[villagewisdom]

I know I am capable of it. I don't know how you become good at empathy. You either have it or you don't. You use it or you don't. I convinced my father to stop his wife from beating my nine year old brother with a belt. It took some painful soul searching to feel my brother's fear as my fear. This was the only way for me to muster the courage to stand up to my father. Empathy is not simply wearing someone's shoes for a time. It's experiencing the same feelings as your loved ones because they are part of you.

 

You have posed a curious question so I will turn it back at you. Would you consider me to be "good at empathy" from reading my posts in this thread?

 

Practice is how you become good at anything, including empathy. It's tricky because it requires really deep listening, an identification of the feelings in the other, and a response to the feelings identified - which is subjective. I mean to say, what is an appropriate response? Also, empathy is not always used to identify negative experiences. You can experience the joy of another as well.

 

I cannot say whether you are "good at empathy" via these kinds of posts. In my experience, it would require much more direct contact to know that. I was just curious whether you thought you were or not. In some of your responses it seemed you were very familiar with it and in other places it seemed more of an intellectual understanding and not so much personal experience. I could see in your writing some kind of confusion or struggle within you because of the contradictory nature of some of your statements.

 

Sounds like you have some issues at home. Sorry to hear about your brother's abuse. Were you abused as well? It seems likely but I do not want to assume. 

[J. D. Stembal]

Practice is how you become good at anything, including empathy. It's tricky because it requires really deep listening, an identification of the feelings in the other, and a response to the feelings identified - which is subjective. I mean to say, what is an appropriate response? Also, empathy is not always used to identify negative experiences. You can experience the joy of another as well.

 

I cannot say whether you are "good at empathy" via these kinds of posts. In my experience, it would require much more direct contact to know that. I was just curious whether you thought you were or not. In some of your responses it seemed you were very familiar with it and in other places it seemed more of an intellectual understanding and not so much personal experience. I could see in your writing some kind of confusion or struggle within you because of the contradictory nature of some of your statements.

 

Sounds like you have some issues at home. Sorry to hear about your brother's abuse. Were you abused as well? It seems likely but I do not want to assume. 

 

Of course, I was abused. I didn't consider it abuse at the time. A child can acclimate to any environment, not matter how abusive. My childhood did not reflect a military form of aggression, such as being hit with implements. I spent most of my childhood separated from my parents emotionally and physically. I am much more concerned about my abandonment issues than the physical abuse I endured. However, seeing my brother's mother use a belt on him because he would not go to bed was a revelation in empathy for me. It is what caused me to start donating to FDR, and allowed me to see that everything I had heard Stefan discuss on his shows applied to me. Before I witnessed the look of abject fear on my brother's face, I was a sleeper - an FDR tourist. Before awakening, I don't think I was capable of real empathy because it would have forced me to relive my inner emotions, which I had been muting for years through rampant alcoholism. I'm definitely new to empathy, and I realize it doesn't only apply to negative emotions. I am so full of the negative ones that it's impossible for me to empathize with joy.

 

I am still not sure that you can practice empathy to gain proficiency in it. For me, empathy is something you choose to use or not with other people. I would like to point out that we are conditioned to turn our capacity for empathy off most of the time. Just watch the nine o'clock news and try to empathize with every story. It will turn you into a zombie. The majority of the news points to suffering and pain going on in the world. How can we possibly have the emotional energy to feel the pain of thousands of people each day? The simple answer is that we cannot. Humans are not mentally equipped to know and closely relate more than one hundred and fifty people during their lifetimes (Dunbar's number). That's why we have social media. It's so people can manage and filter all the people they have in their lives, keeping them at arm's length. This is also the reason why most celebrities are so screwed up mentally. They meet and talk to so many people they are forced to relate to the rest of the world as one entity.

 

Where did I contradict myself in my earlier statements? Was it where I expressed frustration at the presumption that women are often ruled by their emotions?

[villagewisdom]

Of course, I was abused. I didn't consider it abuse at the time. A child can acclimate to any environment, not matter how abusive. My childhood did not reflect a military form of aggression, such as being hit with implements. I spent most of my childhood separated from my parents emotionally and physically. I am much more concerned about my abandonment issues than the physical abuse I endured. However, seeing my brother's mother use a belt on him because he would not go to bed was a revelation in empathy for me. It is what caused me to start donating to FDR, and allowed me to see that everything I had heard Stefan discuss on his shows applied to me. Before I witnessed the look of abject fear on my brother's face, I was a sleeper - an FDR tourist. Before awakening, I don't think I was capable of real empathy because it would have forced me to relive my inner emotions, which I had been muting for years through rampant alcoholism. I'm definitely new to empathy, and I realize it doesn't only apply to negative emotions. I am so full of the negative ones that it's impossible for me to empathize with joy.

 

I am still not sure that you can practice empathy to gain proficiency in it. For me, empathy is something you choose to use or not with other people. I would like to point out that we are conditioned to turn our capacity for empathy off most of the time. Just watch the nine o'clock news and try to empathize with every story. It will turn you into a zombie. The majority of the news points to suffering and pain going on in the world. How can we possibly have the emotional energy to feel the pain of thousands of people each day? The simple answer is that we cannot. Humans are not mentally equipped to know and closely relate more than one hundred and fifty people during their lifetimes (Dunbar's number). That's why we have social media. It's so people can manage and filter all the people they have in their lives, keeping them at arm's length. This is also the reason why most celebrities are so screwed up mentally. They meet and talk to so many people they are forced to relate to the rest of the world as one entity.

 

Where did I contradict myself in my earlier statements? Was it where I expressed frustration at the presumption that women are often ruled by their emotions?

 

Perhaps contradictory is not the correct term to use. Just above you state: "I am still not sure that you can practice empathy to gain proficiency in it" and then you write that you think it is a choice. I agree. Choosing to experience empathy is a choice. So making a choice over and over is practicing. After a while you can do it more easily. That is what I meant when I used the word contradictory. It's like you say something "is not" this and then say "it is this" and they are the same thing. 

 

Also, not to criticize, but just to note. My experience of your communication is quite harsh. And I do not say this for myself. I say it for you. I believe you are quite harsh on yourself and it shows up in your expression in writing. However, it is writing and I could be totally off base with that. Emotion is not effectively communicated in this kind of interaction. Words without the sound and visual accompaniment can easily be misconstrued. 

 

So sorry you had such a rough time. Are you in counseling? I'm sure you know that if you are not it would certainly help. Again, so sorry for your situation and loss of your childhood. Are you and your brother out of danger now?

[J. D. Stembal]

I have taken steps to remove myself from places and relationships where I would be exposed to substance abuse, which has been a weakness of mine since I was fifteen. Incidentally, this is also the age when I started medication and therapy for depression, which was caused by childhood abandonment and never addressed in my therapy. I had no self-knowledge at this point in my life, and I was never asked about my relationship to my parents. Therefore, I am extremely skeptical of professional psychiatry as I was essentially drugged for my parents' shortcomings. There is a conflict of interest between my needs and the needs of the profession, therefore, I will not seek the assistance of a counselor again.

 

I know that I can come off sounding harsh. It comes from being completely honest with my feelings, which tends to catch people off guard.

 

My half brother and sister (nine and six) are far from being out of danger, but I have expressed many of my concerns to my father about the way they are being raised. There is no way that I can ensure that they are no longer abused. If not physically, they will continue to be abused emotionally by their parents and institutionally through being enrolled in the public school system. I can already see how it affects them adversely.

[Frosty]

Don't really agree with the video, at least I'd phrase it in a different way, I'd say that you have an emotional part of your brain and a logical/intellectual part. The emotional part is hardwired into our evolution where instinct and natural urges drove beneficial behaviour before we had much ability to reason etc, and the much younger rational part of the brain is the part that has become more necessary in modern society.

 

I'd argue that women are more emotional thinkers on average and men are more logical thinkers, it comes from a historical necessity of men to solve problems in order to keep the tribe safe from threat and produce enough resources to provide for family. It's best that you construct a spear to fight a lion rather than get emotional.

 

Like in the video it says women need connections to feel safe and secure, this is an emotional requirement and not a logical one, it's born out of being maternal and needing a connection with infants and children so they have a strong urge to bond.

 

Obviously I'm not saying that women can't be logical, there are lots of great female thinkers, but i'd say the propensity for emotional reactions to trump logical ones is greater, and also the satisfaction and gratification of solving logical problems by formulating solutions is lesser than what men experience. Look at fields of engineering, construction, hard science, computer science, women are almost completely absent, where as fields for caring such as care worker, nurse, childcare etc, these are all female dominated fields.

 

As a man emotional and fundamentally irrational thinking and behaviour frustrate me, it's the cause of a lot of problems and has little ability to resolve them. I reference this video a fair bit, it demonstrates the fundamental difference really well - 

 

For men it's about discovering the problem, working out how to fix the problem and then implementing the fix. Women seem far more interested in emotional sympathy for the problem to such an extent they'd rather have that than actually trying to correct the problem. I literally cannot understand and I'm sure will never understand this approach to life. I ask myself how on earth can women possibly get anything done in life with this attitude, then I remember that it's men that have built most of modern society.

 

Obvious exceptions to ALL of this, I'm talking in generalities not absolutes.

[Psychophant]

There is one correction that I would make. If you deviate from the "format" she is not feeling threatened and insecure. She is likely upset that you interrupted her unwinding mechanism and feels you are not listening to her. Women often talk to reduce stress. They do not want advice. They do not want whatever problem they are talking about to be fixed. They only want to talk until they run down. And they want empathy while they do it. You simply cannot have an intelligent conversation when she is in unwind mode. 

 

 

Is this nurture or is this nature? During a depression, I panicked in the doctors office and talked until I run down with the doctor.

 

Two birds with one stone, kiss her until she runs down. Alternatively you could retreat from the conversation.

[J. D. Stembal]

 

I'd argue that women are more emotional thinkers on average and men are more logical thinkers, it comes from a historical necessity of men to solve problems in order to keep the tribe safe from threat and produce enough resources to provide for family. It's best that you construct a spear to fight a lion rather than get emotional.

 

The Thinking - Feeling component of the Myers-Briggs personality test is often used to illustrate the above. Everyone scores differently on the scale, but the tendency is to conclude that women are mostly feelers. When I purchased a handgun, I showed it to my ex-girlfriend's room mate. She curiously watched me field strip the firearm to polish contact points, and commented that she didn't think the weapon looked very frightening since she was seeing it in a clinical situation, unloaded and stripped down to its component parts. Previous to that point, she had been leaning to the pro-control side of the political argument.

 

I believe wholeheartedly that women can contemplate issues rationally, given the chance, and so can men navigate issues using emotions to guide them, if they are allowed.