Agriculture, permaculture, debating, physical labor & more

[bitcoin]

In my opinion (which I admit, I might have totally misread, misunderstood, etc --- but from my understanding): Stefan talks "down" upon labor working such as landscaping, farming, etc. (for example in "Testosterone Based Parasites")

 

I have a problem with this because, to me, it is disrespectful and to some degree, ignorant. Please read what I have written before coming to any conclusions about my statement. Thanks. 

 

There is an imaginable amount of stuff to learn about truly sustainble and the most productive agriculture. In permaculture, for example, there is extensive research, planning, etc. into the process of building and creating a thriving farm. It is much more than pulling weeds. In fact, it is entirely different, those who practice permaculture are incredibly smart, talented and creative. Those who practice and implement permaculture (Geoff Lawton, Bill Mollison to name a few) have done extensive research, trial and error and are knowledgable in many aspects of science and have chosen to use their physical and mental abilities for the benefit of growing and create thriving ecosystems full of biodiversity, highest amount of minerals & nutrients and actually eventually to provide a very small physical demand. Truly productive agriculture and landscaping begins with extensive research and planning to provide an easy experience in the long run. This takes learning, knowledge of science (soil biology, etc.), philosophy (philosophy created permaculture / permaculture is a philosophy), entrepreneur, marketing and much more. I get that Stefan was  pointing that a smart person would necessarily be interested in this, but I am arguing that is not the case. I am arguing that there are many things Stefan is ignorant to, in the realm of permaculture and that there are incredibly smart people working on projects related to agriculture and landscaping around the world. 

 

Perhaps I misunderstood and /or did not grasp what Stefan was saying (or the context), but I do feel it is a subjective statement to say that people who have drive in landscaping, farming, and other semi-physical activities as a career are not smart, because otherwise they would not be satisfied. Again, perhaps I have misinterpreted, but I feel it is an unjust statement to make.

 

I would also like to quickly point out, there are folks out there who make over $200 grand with this "technique" of farming; and live quite abundantly in nature. Of course, this involves incredible marketing, and physical labor, to be fair. All in all though, permaculture is a practice of agriculture that learns to work with nature in order to reduce and overturn, erosion, drought, and many other environmental problems we face. For those who don't know either, in this form of agriculture, the soil continuously improves, which is far different than any other form of agriculture (including organic--with till -- agriculture.

 

Just to point out, I am openly "biased", being 17, with a huge passion in permaculture, agriculture, the science behind "it all" , wildlife, wildcrafting, plant & soil biology, etc. I may be blinded by the fact that I have a drive towards living a certain way, learning these things and, though I have / had very little money and live in a grouphome, have put hundreds of dollars towards learning the science behind all of this stuff.

 

Hope this all makes sense and is not taken the wrong way. I just wanted to express and share my thoughts; and use this as a way to share and enlighten folks about permaculture !

 

I would love to hear responses, because I humbly admit that there are things I dont know, undertaand, could have very well misunderstood and misread and so on. I would love to hear what people have to say in regards to my (possible?) argument. If there are things I have said which are blatanly false, arrogant, etc. please point them out; this will help me grow and learn. My attempt in writing this is to practice debating, learning about debating (and about this topic) and listening to and hearing others' arguments and perspectives. My intention is not to simply say, for example, "permaculture is the best" or anything of that nature, so again, I would appreciate it if people point out if my argument or anything was not clear and so forth.

 

Thanks a lot for reading !

 

All the best! 

 

Jake

[villagewisdom]

Hi Jake,

 

Good post. I also find Stef's references to farming a little out of touch with the eat local, small farm, sustainable, permaculture models currently gaining ground. I have heard these references several times and have come to the conclusion that Stef thinks of farming the way that most of the US thinks of farming and that is as a manufacturing industry. I see that you know that ultimately it is not a manufacturing industry and never will be as it is not sustainable due to the laws of nature. Sustainable and permaculture are being proven the way to feed the world. 

 

I also find that references such as "nobody wants to do the labor" are also inaccurate. I know of lots of people from your age to mine (59) that are getting into agriculture because of the lifestyle. I have big plans to work hard until I drop. Rather than doing boring stuff at the gym, I find walking a few miles over the farm while moving and checking on animals is great exercise. Today I turned quite a few wheels of cheese that weigh 12 pounds a piece. Much more satisfying that lifting weights. When we get to full production on cheese, I will likely be lifting and turning 12 pound cheeses for an hour at a time. That's actually more exercise than most would do at the fitness center. I love what I do. And it is hard work. 

 

Hard work has really been demonized. It's like people think that you can't be intelligent and also do hard labor. It's just not true. Have you heard of Joel Salatin? Extremely intelligent and an excellent farmer. He's also a libertarian. Have you read "the Unsettling of America, Culture and Agriculture" by Wendell Berry? It's a good read. He has some good arguments that are different than Stef's about why we went from 80% farmers to 2%. 

 

There are lots of people your age or maybe a little older that are trying to get into sustainable agriculture and permaculture. I've met a few. It's your life. Do with it as you please. I'd love to hear more of your plans. It's exciting to see young people like you working to make a difference in our messed up food system. 

[luxfelix]

But there's so much to gain from connecting with another passionate individual, even if they work in another field.

 

I thought something similar to this was stated in one of his previous posts. 

[Guest Mags]

Great post. I'm twenty and agree with everything you've said. Although I'm a little bias as I've just began learning about agriculture and getting involved with native Australian plants. Ever since I was a kid I've enjoyed what could be described as manual labour. I forgot this for a long time in my teens, when I face planted into the tv, my GameBoy SP, and later laptop). Then one day my uncle asked me to help him stack fire wood. I was very surprised at how much I enjoyed it (no one is supposed to after all, and it wasn't because of my uncle's company thats for sure.) A couple of months later I found myself helping my mum with taking care of and repopulating the native trees in her paddock. I found it very satisfying. I concur with villagewisdom; this brand of exercise is so much more relaxing and rewarding, plus you learn a lot if your looking and prepared to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if, in the future, people drove to the local farm to get their workout done instead of to their gym. I don't know too much about big industry farming, but organic/sustainable (and the like) farms are wonderful things as I'm sure I don't have to tell you. I could probably write loads more on the subject but I've said my peace. I might edit in more if I think of it. 

That said I haven't watched Testosterone Based Parasites yet (waiting for that baby to download  ) 

[RyanT]

Yeah, I’ve been into self-sufficiency on and off since I was a kid, so some of Stef’s comments have stuck in my craw the first time around, but certainly in the example of "Testosterone Based Parasites" he specifically asked her, ‘is he running the landscaping firm (i.e the thinking side of things) or just mowing lawns and hauling rocks’… to which she obviously answered the latter.

 

So basically boils down to another, ‘Well I know a tall Asian!’ situation.

 

Sure we can find examples of people who’re expending vast amounts of brainpower on really intricate and complex scientific ideas and processes…and reaping the financial benefits.

 

But for the vast majority and certainly in the specific example he’s talking about here,

that’s simply not the case?

 

NAFALT - 'Not All Farmers Are Like That'?

[bitcoin]

Hi Jake,

 

Good post. I also find Stef's references to farming a little out of touch with the eat local, small farm, sustainable, permaculture models currently gaining ground. I have heard these references several times and have come to the conclusion that Stef thinks of farming the way that most of the US thinks of farming and that is as a manufacturing industry. I see that you know that ultimately it is not a manufacturing industry and never will be as it is not sustainable due to the laws of nature. Sustainable and permaculture are being proven the way to feed the world. 

 

I also find that references such as "nobody wants to do the labor" are also inaccurate. I know of lots of people from your age to mine (59) that are getting into agriculture because of the lifestyle. I have big plans to work hard until I drop. Rather than doing boring stuff at the gym, I find walking a few miles over the farm while moving and checking on animals is great exercise. Today I turned quite a few wheels of cheese that weigh 12 pounds a piece. Much more satisfying that lifting weights. When we get to full production on cheese, I will likely be lifting and turning 12 pound cheeses for an hour at a time. That's actually more exercise than most would do at the fitness center. I love what I do. And it is hard work. 

 

Hard work has really been demonized. It's like people think that you can't be intelligent and also do hard labor. It's just not true. Have you heard of Joel Salatin? Extremely intelligent and an excellent farmer. He's also a libertarian. Have you read "the Unsettling of America, Culture and Agriculture" by Wendell Berry? It's a good read. He has some good arguments that are different than Stef's about why we went from 80% farmers to 2%. 

 

There are lots of people your age or maybe a little older that are trying to get into sustainable agriculture and permaculture. I've met a few. It's your life. Do with it as you please. I'd love to hear more of your plans. It's exciting to see young people like you working to make a difference in our messed up food system. 

 

Thanks a lot for the response, I really appreciate it and am glad to have found someone like you on FDR... 

 

I would LOVE to get your thoughts on a few things. I am currently about to drop out of high school to go live my life the way I want to live it, learn and experience, in BC, on a  permaculture farm. Of course, there are many layers to this decision, but in any case I would love your thoughts.

 

I totally agree, I would much prefer the physical labour that involves things "out in the wild" such as climbing, running, churning, building, etc. and the piece of mind that comes with it, knowing that this physical labour is towards somthing even positive in the world as well as health.

 

I have heard of Joel Salatin and the first time I did, I thought he was incredibly intelligent. He makes great points, about farming and politics. Very smart man. 

 

In any case, thanks for the response and I would love your thoughts on my plans !!

 

Thanks a lot .

 

Jake

Great post. I'm twenty and agree with everything you've said. Although I'm a little bias as I've just began learning about agriculture and getting involved with native Australian plants. Ever since I was a kid I've enjoyed what could be described as manual labour. I forgot this for a long time in my teens, when I face planted into the tv, my GameBoy SP, and later laptop). Then one day my uncle asked me to help him stack fire wood. I was very surprised at how much I enjoyed it (no one is supposed to after all, and it wasn't because of my uncle's company thats for sure.) A couple of months later I found myself helping my mum with taking care of and repopulating the native trees in her paddock. I found it very satisfying. I concur with villagewisdom; this brand of exercise is so much more relaxing and rewarding, plus you learn a lot if your looking and prepared to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if, in the future, people drove to the local farm to get their workout done instead of to their gym. I don't know too much about big industry farming, but organic/sustainable (and the like) farms are wonderful things as I'm sure I don't have to tell you. I could probably write loads more on the subject but I've said my peace. I might edit in more if I think of it. 

That said I haven't watched Testosterone Based Parasites yet (waiting for that baby to download  ) 

 

True that. I started from the city, still here, eating mcdonalds and whatever little food I could eat (crap like hotdogs though) and only somewhat recently, after I finally defooed (long before I heard of Stef / FDR) I eventually found myself in Northern California where I got into the whole agriculture thing. I was fascinated, loved the people, loved the work; and there is unimaginable stuff to learn. Its amazing how people are so quick to think the system is better than before, because we have more machinery and less labor.... Well in fact, Manasobu Fukuoka did almost no labor on his farm once it was all started... There is very little maintenance, the hardest thing is harvesting. Anyways, I heard similar comments in The Truth About Immigration, and others. Doesn't matter though; glad I found like-minded folks on this topic. 

Yeah, I’ve been into self-sufficiency on and off since I was a kid, so some of Stef’s comments have stuck in my craw the first time around, but certainly in the example of "Testosterone Based Parasites" he specifically asked her, ‘is he running the landscaping firm (i.e the thinking side of things) or just mowing lawns and hauling rocks’… to which she obviously answered the latter.

 

So basically boils down to another, ‘Well I know a tall Asian!’ situation.

 

Sure we can find examples of people who’re expending vast amounts of brainpower on really intricate and complex scientific ideas and processes…and reaping the financial benefits.

 

But for the vast majority and certainly in the specific example he’s talking about here,

that’s simply not the case?

 

NAFALT - 'Not All Farmers Are Like That'?

I agree that the example was a bit different, come to think of it, in TBP, the guy was only doing the moving rocks type work. Though, in my experience, there is a lot to learn on the job, which is far more than simply "moving rocks". I agree, to some degree about the "Tall asian" comment, though there is a lot more intelligence to gain from the work than simply the business / marketing aspect. Creating a plan for the garden / home is one of the most challenging aspects of a good (permaculture) landscaping company, which reduces further labor in the future. Of course, I get that this is not what they were doing. I just want to point out though, organic farmers that I have met, and organic landscapers seem to be quite intelligent, only hire other intelligent people (because they are generally very small businesses), hard workers and those who are passionate(!). In any case, what I am saying is irrelevant, I agree with you. I am just pointing out my experience is very different in working with organic farmers.

[villagewisdom]

Hi Jake,

 

Before commenting on your plans I would need more information like your long-term future plans. Things like are you planning to have a farm of your own? Do you want a family? Are you going to be a permaculture consultant? You might need some business savvy for that. What is your time-line for "the plan"? etc. 

 

Also, tell me more about your current opportunity. Are you Canadian? What is your role on the farm and what do you want to gain from the experience? etc. 

 

Love Fukuoka's stuff. And love living in Virginia as we have Joel Salatin doing some great political stuff for small farms. Not like getting free stuff, but getting the regulations relaxed so we can sell stuff from the farm without FDA/USDA burdens. I think it just might happen. As long as we have the evil government, it's good to have someone on our side. 

 

I look forward to hearing more. 

[bitcoin]

Hi Jake,

 

Before commenting on your plans I would need more information like your long-term future plans. Things like are you planning to have a farm of your own? Do you want a family? Are you going to be a permaculture consultant? You might need some business savvy for that. What is your time-line for "the plan"? etc. 

 

Also, tell me more about your current opportunity. Are you Canadian? What is your role on the farm and what do you want to gain from the experience? etc. 

 

Love Fukuoka's stuff. And love living in Virginia as we have Joel Salatin doing some great political stuff for small farms. Not like getting free stuff, but getting the regulations relaxed so we can sell stuff from the farm without FDA/USDA burdens. I think it just might happen. As long as we have the evil government, it's good to have someone on our side. 

 

I look forward to hearing more. 

 

PM me pleaaaase !