ParaSait Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 The thread's title may seem absurd and a contradiction in terms (and it may as well BE contradictory too, I don't know for sure -- that's why I'm asking). This is fairly simple question, but may have a complicated answer. So imagine, for instance, if I said to you "If tomorrow I try to leave the house, do not allow me to do it under any circumstances, even if I beg and plead you at that time to let me leave. Use force if necessary!", would it be moral or immoral for you to keep me in the house by force the next day? Is it still a violation of the NAP to keep me in the house by force, or can the consensual agreement override the principle arbitrarily? Now there could be various good reasons for me to ask something like this. I could be schizophrenic. I could be on shrooms. I could have some sort of addiction. Any kind of insane state of mind. So, in case the answer is "it depends", then is it legitimate for you to do this if A) I'm insane, B) I'm actually sane. (thinking about it, version B is probably self-defeating, because I may necessarily need to be insane to ask something like that in first place ) Your thoughts?
Wuzzums Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Planning on listening to any mermaid songs in the near future? The way I see it it's like self defense against yourself by proxy. Self defense does not violate the NAP, I cannot use self defense against my own body, I know I must use self defense against my body because I will not be myself for a period of time, I can delegate said self defense to a second party. The second party cannot be accused of violating the NAP in the same manner a bodyguard cannot be accused of violating the NAP when they protect someone through violence even though they themselves weren't the ones being attacked. 1
luxfelix Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 I can see how this could be an awkward predicament to explain to others as it might seem to break NAP without context; so, do provide context by informing multiple people, signing documents, etc. to help others help you? This reminds me of the scenario of a doctor needing to amputate a limb to save the rest of the patient's body; the patient doesn't want to lose the limb, so what does the doctor do? (Hippocratic Oath?) If something was agreed ahead of time then there would be less ambiguity.
MMX2010 Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Are you experiencing something similar in your life, right now, ParaSait?
ParaSait Posted August 25, 2014 Author Posted August 25, 2014 Planning on listening to any mermaid songs in the near future? The way I see it it's like self defense against yourself by proxy. Self defense does not violate the NAP, I cannot use self defense against my own body, I know I must use self defense against my body because I will not be myself for a period of time, I can delegate said self defense to a second party. The second party cannot be accused of violating the NAP in the same manner a bodyguard cannot be accused of violating the NAP when they protect someone through violence even though they themselves weren't the ones being attacked. Makes sense! Thanks for clearing it up. Are you experiencing something similar in your life, right now, ParaSait? Yes and no. I'm currently helping a girl to get out of an abusive relationship with her "boyfriend", and he's brainwashed her pretty bad. I just wanted to be fully clear on this moral question in case she pulls the "it's my problem, he's doing it for my own good" card...
MMX2010 Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 I'm currently helping a girl to get out of an abusive relationship with her "boyfriend", and he's brainwashed her pretty bad. Wow. I think you should immediately PM MMD and arrange a call-in show with Stefan. What you're doing is both highly valuable and even more dangerous. So I don't think you should so this unless you're fully aware of both the value - (which means you must be highly skilled, lest you perform poorly) - and danger of your task.
Wuzzums Posted August 25, 2014 Posted August 25, 2014 Yes and no. I'm currently helping a girl to get out of an abusive relationship with her "boyfriend", and he's brainwashed her pretty bad. I just wanted to be fully clear on this moral question in case she pulls the "it's my problem, he's doing it for my own good" card... Waitaminute. You said "helping" which implies you were asked by her personally. But how can she ask you to help her if she's been brainwashed to the point where she might pull the "it's my problem" card? It's not something you decided by yourself to do for her because you think she'll benefit from it in the long run, right?
cynicist Posted August 26, 2014 Posted August 26, 2014 If you had consent you wouldn't need coercion. I know you are trying to avoid going into specifics but in the example you gave in your first post, how do you know that they simply haven't changed their mind? Unless the situation is life-threatening or there is a high risk of physical harm you can't say you are acting in defense of the other person by using force to stop them. Is the abuse that bad?
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