Dealing with "bullies" after high school

[MOTM]

So there's was this guy at my job who likes to make fun of specific people including me. Lets call him Bill. I'm a laborer by the way. He would constantly make obvious set up/punch line jokes that I saw a mile away and didn't find funny, but other guys would laugh. He would only attack me if he had an audience. He would also yell for me to shut up even if I hadn't even said a word. Along with other intentionally hurtful verbal attacks. I would shoot back but I would make one come back to every 4 or 5 of his "jokes". For some perspective I'm 20 and he is 30.

 

Today I was working while he was just sitting in the truck on his phone. (he is not a superior to me, he has the same job) I walked up to the truck and said to him "you know you're not union so you can get the fuck out of the truck every once in a while." The other guy on the job starts cracking up at this point.

 

Bill stared at me with a mix of disbelief and anger on his face. He said "What the fuck did you just say? Did you guys just hear that? You know your talking to a grown man right now."

 

I said "Let me ask you a serious question"

 

Bill "I'm probably not going to answer it"

 

Me "I know you joke around sometimes but do you actually think I'm a bitch? 

 

Bill "Do you think I'm a bitch?"

 

Me "Yeah, a little bit"

 

Bill "do you think I'm a bitch"

 

Me "yeah"

 

Bill "So what, do you wanna fight me or something? Cause I'll destroy you"

 

Me "yeah I do actually. I wanna fight you in the octagon. I won't fight you at work but I will fight you legally in a gym" (I fight for sport)

 

Bill "alright name the time and place and I'll be there"

 

Me "Sunday around noon in (town). How about that?"

 

Bill (walks away and comes back a minute later) "I was just joking. I don't mix work with what I do after work. But don't talk to me from now on." (walks away)

 

Me "that's a nice excuse."

 

He won't talk to me from now on and I won't talk to him so I got what I wanted. But this isn't the first time I've had to threaten to beat someones ass because they won't stop disrespecting me. Its always for no apparent reason. Maybe its because I'm such an agreeable nice guy that I'm a target. 

 

Question. Will I have to deal with "bully" types my entire life? Did I initiate force by challenging him to a fight?

 

I also notice a sudden surge in everyone's general respect for me. Is that some sort of left over alpha male shit? Am I obligated to defend the other guy he has targeted?

[MMX2010]

Major, major disclaimer: I haven't yet applied these ideas to my own life, so I concede that I have no credibility. 

 

However, have you read articles from either Rollo (from the rationalmale.com) or Roissy (at chateau heartiste) with regard to either "inner game", "amused mastery", or "cocky and funny"? 

[MOTM]

have you read articles from either Rollo (from the rationalmale.com) or Roissy (at chateau heartiste) with regard to either "inner game", "amused mastery", or "cocky and funny"? 

 

No but I have heard of inner game from the PUA community

[Alan C.]

Will I have to deal with "bully" types my entire life? Did I initiate force by challenging him to a fight?

 

You will likely have to deal with bullies indefinitely.

 

You didn't initiate force because he consented.

[Wuzzums]

I'm guessing Bill is at least taller than you? These assholes always pick on what they perceive as the weaker target. This way they make sure the target will take it and not fight back. From my experience they back off immediately if you make it clear to them that you will fight back if it gets to violence. It's because they never were in a fight in the first place since none of the targets ever fights back.

[MOTM]

I'm guessing Bill is at least taller than you? 

 

 

No I'm 6' 3" and he is probably around 5' 5". He has a big mouth though and noticed I'm quiet 

[MMX2010]

No but I have heard of inner game from the PUA community

 

Okay. 

 

From my perspective, you were asking for alternative ways of dealing with bullies like your co-worker.  Before I comment, I hope you're not at all feeling guilty, sad, or any form of self-attack for handling him like you did.  He doesn't deserve any of your sympathy, and he wins if you experience self-doubt from interacting with him. 

 

It's possible to make a guy like that back down by turning his insults around.  So when he asks you to shut up, even though you haven't said anything, just loudly and with happiness say, "(insert bully's name here), I know you fantasize about me hitting on you and dominating you, but I swear I didn't say anything just then.  *point to someone else* John, you didn't hear me hit on him, right?" 

 

If you do this with ultimate happiness, and win over the laughter / approval of the rest of the group, he'll back down extremely quickly.  But if you do this with any trace of frustration, bully guy will know that he's "gotten to you" and will continue to antagonize. 

 

Naturally, you don't have to learn to adopt this personality if you don't want to.  I'm just presenting it as an option. 

[MOTM]

 

It's possible to make a guy like that back down by turning his insults around.  So when he asks you to shut up, even though you haven't said anything, just loudly and with happiness say, "(insert bully's name here), I know you fantasize about me hitting on you and dominating you, but I swear I didn't say anything just then.  *point to someone else* John, you didn't hear me hit on him, right?" 

 

I appreciate the suggestion. While that may be effective for some I feel like that can easily backfire on me. It may come off as projection and I would probably be cut off before fully making the point. 

[MysterionMuffles]

Massive props to you for standing up for yourself! I don't agree with the threatening being so explicit, though I do wonder how I would feel if you made it implicit that you fight for sport.

 

Well anyways, yeah you're gonna have to deal with a lot of bullies out in the world. They're cowards. Stand up to them, they back down.

You will likely have to deal with bullies indefinitely.

 

You didn't initiate force because he consented.

 but I agree with this logic.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

Your post made me smile. Nothing like pointing out how small someone's balls are when they're masquerading around like they're monstrous.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA_trUrPQbI

[MysterionMuffles]

I appreciate the suggestion. While that may be effective for some I feel like that can easily backfire on me. It may come off as projection and I would probably be cut off before fully making the point. 

 

and yeah that's kinda iffy. I remember a bully from my old work place projecting weird shit on this mentally challenged guy saying, "why you lookin at me you gay or something? you want my cock?" like eww dude just come out of the closet already. The mentally challenged guy glanced at him for like 5 seconds and didn't say anything so it's funny that's how the bully treated him.

[J-William]

I'm a laborer by the way.

For some perspective I'm 20 and he is 30.

 

Today I was working while he was just sitting in the truck on his phone. (he is not a superior to me, he has the same job) I walked up to the truck and said to him "you know you're not union so you can get the fuck out of the truck every once in a while." The other guy on the job starts cracking up at this point.

 

Me "yeah I do actually. I wanna fight you in the octagon. I won't fight you at work but I will fight you legally in a gym" (I fight for sport)

So... let's see here. You're a young big quiet smart guy working as a laborer. He's a dumb short guy who is still working at the bottom of the rung of the ladder as a laborer at 30. 

 

I would bet he was a bully in school who liked to pick on the younger kids. I'm probably the same age as him and have never needed to tell anyone I'm a grown man.

 

Why do you fight? Bullies can smell lack of emotional connection a mile away. When you're a kid that's connection with your parents, and now that you're a grown man it's connection with yourself and your own emotions. I am somewhat concerned that if you are fighting for sport that perhaps you are lacking an emotional connection with yourself.

[MOTM]

 

Yeah through times I over heard him talking to others I gathered some information on him. He's $30,000 in debt, he blows his money on instant lottery tickets, he used to get picked on as a kid and developed a personality that would fend them off, he hates his mother, he watches BDSM porn, and he wishes cancer on anybody he doesn't like including someone who cuts him off in traffic. I wonder what his mother did to him. It really messed him up

 

I fight because my older brother is into it. He started going to help him get off drugs. He's an instructor now. I go for exercise and Its always good to know how to fight. Its also fun. I'm pretty good for my level of experience and usually win. I don't go over 30%. I hold back because I don't actually want to hurt anybody, especially a friend in class that did nothing wrong to me. 

 I don't agree with the threatening being so explicit, though I do wonder how I would feel if you made it implicit that you fight for sport.

Why don't you agree? I made it clear that I wouldn't hit him unless he agreed to step into a legal match against me. How else could I get him off my back. Going back at him verbally wasn't working. I had to intimidate him somehow. You can't reason with unreasonable people. 

[Timur]

I see no problem with challenging somebody to a fair fight in a gym. It's not the same as threatening to hurt somebody. Well done with how you handled this.

[MysterionMuffles]

Why don't you agree? I made it clear that I wouldn't hit him unless he agreed to step into a legal match against me. How else could I get him off my back. Going back at him verbally wasn't working. I had to intimidate him somehow. You can't reason with unreasonable people. 

 

Youre right, I retract my statement. You weren't saying that you would kick his ass right then and there, you were inviting him to a fair fight on reasonable grounds where it's allowed if he consented to it. Were you ever really going to fight him if he said yes or was it just a way to make him back off?

[MOTM]

Were you ever really going to fight him if he said yes or was it just a way to make him back off?

Like I said earlier, I don't like hurting people. However, In this case I was looking forward to beating his face in.  I have so many physical advantages on him along with training. He didn't have a chance against me and he knew it. I've only had to call out 3 guys to a fight in my life. All three have backed down so far. I say what I mean and mean what I say. I don't make hollow threats.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a tough guy. I and nice to everyone I meet. Its other guys acting tough that gets me mad.

 

I once heard a quote that resonated with me. "what if the solution to all of your frustrations is to just be awesome to every single person you encounter?" Apparently not as realistic as I once thought

[Dave Bockman]

who was the first bully in your life?

[J-William]

 

I fight because my older brother is into it. He started going to help him get off drugs. He's an instructor now. I go for exercise and Its always good to know how to fight. Its also fun. I'm pretty good for my level of experience and usually win. I don't go over 30%. I hold back because I don't actually want to hurt anybody, especially a friend in class that did nothing wrong to me. 

Have you gone to therapy? I just ask because you have a brother who needs to hit people to get himself off drugs, from which I can guess your childhood wasn't great.

 

What about the emotional connection? Do you have a good connection with yourself? When he first started this do you think you could have said something like "That's not cool dude, cut it out."? I don't think that I put out a strong aura of "don't fuck with me" or anything, but I haven't been bullied since high school (other than bullying from my parents)

 

I have a significant history of being bullied, but it's been a while since I have been in school.

 

I have not once been overtly bullied at work, even working some very much blue-collar jobs. I have had difficulties with people, but bullying just doesn't make sense. I'm there by choice, they're there by choice, and if they're assholes I just tell the boss about it... I mean I left a job because I went to the boss about the negative behavior of a more senior co-worker and he made it clear that he didn't care. But I did care, no job is worth submitting to awful behavior.

 

Perhaps it is because I've stood up to my parents and stopped their bullying (by hitting the eject button) that I'm generally unconcerned with bullying in my life now.

[MOTM]

who was the first bully in your life?

define bully for me

Have you gone to therapy?

 

What about the emotional connection? Do you have a good connection with yourself? When he first started this do you think you could have said something like "That's not cool dude, cut it out."? 

 

 if they're assholes I just tell the boss about it... 

I went to a Psychologist and Psychiatrist when I was in 2nd grade. I was diagnosed as "emotionally disturbed" and put on Zoloft. I don't even what to think about the horrors that medication did to my developing brain. I think I went back in 4th grade a couple times and then in 6th grade. Since then I haven't

 

I'm not sure how to answer if I have a good connection with myself. Asking a scumbag nicely to stop will usually just show weakness and make them double down. 

 

About complaining to a boss. I'm not sure the area you grew up in, but in New Jersey there is a strong anti-snitch culture. If I went to the boss he would have definitely put an end to the behavior. However, the rest of the guys would lose trust in me and I would become everyone's target. The mentality over here is that you deal with problems man to man first, going to the boss should be the last case scenario. 

[Dave Bockman]

 

 

define bully for me

 

I am somewhat confused by your request. You used the word youself in your original post, are you thinking I am working from an irregular definition of the word bully?

[Melissa McWilliams]

"For some perspective I'm 20 and he is 30."

 

What a fucking loser that guy is...to pick on someone a decade younger than himself. In my experience, bullies are like storms that blow themselves out. Over the course of their sorry-ass lives, their consciences deep down will bother them-- perhaps when they're older they'll spend the rest of their lives in deep, agonizing regret for their actions-- or if not, then eventually they will alienate themselves and die empty, hated and alone.

 

I told this to myself every day I had to work with an ex-coworker of mine. She was a fat, 20-something, poorly-tattooed nobody who loved to try and bully me (the youngest one in the workplace). I just laughed at her every time she insulted me, hit me, etc, and moved on, but she was persistent. One particularly bad day of mine, she picked up on my frustration and took up the opportunity to really try and get me down. After some jabs (which I ignored), she said to me, "You're so fucking slow. And you mixed up this and that. Can't you do anything right? You look like this is your first job or something!" To which I responded: "It is... and you're working it too."

 

One day she cracked a few remarks with the manager within earshot. She got a write-up. The next week she tried to attack another coworker, and, inevitably, she got her ass fired.

[J. D. Stembal]

I would have simply told him that he's not funny. There's no need to resort to fists. If someone is joking around at your expense, lay it down for him honestly. Don't sugar coat it, be straight. I did this recently when a female bully was trying to pass off casual insults towards me. When I took offense, she said, "Oh, I'm just joking around with you." My response; "I don't find you to be funny."

[MOTM]

I am somewhat confused by your request. You used the word youself in your original post, are you thinking I am working from an irregular definition of the word bully?

Well did you mean who was the first person who scared me in my life or the first peer that picked on me.

 

I would have simply told him that he's not funny. There's no need to resort to fists. If someone is joking around at your expense, lay it down for him honestly. Don't sugar coat it, be straight. I did this recently when a female bully was trying to pass off casual insults towards me. When I took offense, she said, "Oh, I'm just joking around with you." My response; "I don't find you to be funny."

 

He knew what he was doing. When I looked at him with a straight face after every joke, he knew. The crowd laughed so he assumed it was funny regardless 

[Triumph]

I also notice a sudden surge in everyone's general respect for me. Is that some sort of left over alpha male shit? Am I obligated to defend the other guy he has targeted?

 

Consider yourself a bystander to a confrontation between 2 guys in a similar situation.  In one version the bullied character never fights back or says anything, in the other version he has enough one day and tells Bill lets go to the gym and settle this in the ring?!  Which of the two do you respect more?

 

It's obvious to make the Alpha male connection.  But it is really more than that. As social creatures who depend on other around us for survival we find ourselves more at ease surrounded by capable individuals. 

 

Now imagine you meeting two new guys, and both of them are categorical beta males.  One of them though has a PhD in Astrophysics, and you can immediately tell talking to him that he really is intelligent.  The other beta... not so much.  If you're like me,  the Astrophysics degree causes you to respect that individual a lot more.  It's not an issue of him being an alpha or beta, it's about knowing him to be incredibly capable. 

 

anyways, my $0.02

[Carl Green]

Bill "So what, do you wanna fight me or something? Cause I'll destroy you"

 

Me "yeah I do actually. I wanna fight you in the octagon. I won't fight you at work but I will fight you legally in a gym" (I fight for sport)

 

 

 

Any idea why you wanted to elevate the interaction from conversation to physical altercation?

[MOTM]

 

Any idea why you wanted to elevate the interaction from conversation to physical altercation?

 

 

It was my way of ending the abuse. I was obsessing over it for days along with regular panic attacks. I had to confront him in some way. Plus I know I'm better than him physically but when we verbally argue he has the upper hand. 

[Melissa McWilliams]

In my opinion, the last thing you should do is keep taunting and provoking this guy, because that's exactly what he wants; but it already seems too late-- as you've escalated this into a physical altercation. Even if you kick his ass the first time, what makes you think this will "end" things? Why wouldn't he come back to get you in any way he can?

 

Beyond middle school (and even then), anyone who chooses to pick on another is outwardly showing their complete lack of testicular fortitude. They are taking time out of their day to put on a facade of toughness, cause problems, and attempt to bring out the worst in others-- in order to inspire confidence within themselves. Tell this to yourself, and move on.

[Psychophant]

"For some perspective I'm 20 and he is 30."

 

What a fucking loser that guy is...to pick on someone a decade younger than himself. In my experience, bullies are like storms that blow themselves out. Over the course of their sorry-ass lives, their consciences deep down will bother them-- perhaps when they're older they'll spend the rest of their lives in deep, agonizing regret for their actions-- or if not, then eventually they will alienate themselves and die empty, hated and alone.

 

I told this to myself every day I had to work with an ex-coworker of mine. She was a fat, 20-something, poorly-tattooed nobody who loved to try and bully me (the youngest one in the workplace). I just laughed at her every time she insulted me, hit me, etc, and moved on, but she was persistent. One particularly bad day of mine, she picked up on my frustration and took up the opportunity to really try and get me down. After some jabs (which I ignored), she said to me, "You're so fucking slow. And you mixed up this and that. Can't you do anything right? You look like this is your first job or something!" To which I responded: "It is... and you're working it too."

 

One day she cracked a few remarks with the manager within earshot. She got a write-up. The next week she tried to attack another coworker, and, inevitably, she got her ass fired.

 

What has the age to do with anything? Bullies prey upon the weak or weakminded, especially if they are most likely sociopath. Dat chick dat bullied me durring my first 8 years of school can lie with a straight face and make it credible - in case you don't know about micro expressions of course. Stef had a micro expression as he talked about Ana Kasparin and the "productive" exchange of ideas - sarcasm . Micro expressions are unusual facial expression that aren`t in accordance with what has been said.

 

There is no sign of deceit itself. There is no gesture, facial expression, nor muscle twitch that in and of itself means that a person is lying. There are only clues that the person is poorly prepared and clues of emotions that don't fit what the person is saying. These are what provide leakage or deception clues. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microexpression

 

[Melissa McWilliams]

What has the age to do with anything? Bullies prey upon the weak or weakminded, especially if they are most likely sociopath. Dat chick dat bullied me durring my first 8 years of school can lie with a straight face and make it credible - in case you don't know about micro expressions of course. Stef had a micro expression as he talked about Ana Kasparin and the "productive" exchange of ideas - sarcasm . Micro expressions are unusual facial expression that aren`t in accordance with what has been said.

 

If this is what you're getting at, then I am of the opinion that "age is just a number." However, it is generally safe to assume that a 30-y/o has more life experience than a 20-y/o; and in a circumstance such as this, that 10-year seniority seems like it can be exploited as a leverage for power and dominance by the bully (especially if his victim is weak to begin with).

 

No a psychologist...just a lifelong victim (who refuses to be any longer) of this sort of social bullshit. (The woman I mentioned above who bullied me was 10 years older than I, interestingly enough.) Take it FWIW.

[wdiaz03]

...

Question. Will I have to deal with "bully" types my entire life? Did I initiate force by challenging him to a fight?

 

...

 

My first reaction was, why are there people like this around you to begin with?

If you keep bullies around then you will have to deal with them your entire life. Why not bring the bullying to your boss?. Let him handle it.

 

I say climb the corporate/occupational ladder and leave them behind. There will always be a part of society that breeds this type of people. To escalate is to mud wrestle with pigs, you get dirty and the pigs like it. The invitation to a fight might have worked on this guy but eventually you will find a guy who will take you up on it. I don't know who will beat who, but I do know that if you get unlucky you can hurt yourself for life, I've come to realize that the human body is more fragile than most people tend to believe and an injury can really affect you for a long time.

 

I say get out of the pig pen when you live up in the trees you rarely have to deal with the pigs on the ground.