JSDev Posted August 30, 2014 Posted August 30, 2014 there goes the love it or leave it argument http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/08/28/u-s-hikes-fee-to-renounce-citizenship-by-422/
cobra2411 Posted August 30, 2014 Posted August 30, 2014 Gotta pay to leave the land of the free... The irony is too much... Here's a thought, can I simply renounce my citizenship and become an "undocumented alien"? Seems like it would be beneficial even with the rate hike given the benefits they receive without having the tax burden...
JSDev Posted August 30, 2014 Author Posted August 30, 2014 it occurred to me that this probably won't have the affect they're going for. If they raise the barrier to exit, you only let the richer productive classes out of the country, leaving only the poor to foot the bill. Kind of an Atlas Shrugged thing playing out.
J. D. Stembal Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 My counter to the "love it or leave it" argument is strict immigration laws. If you think about it critically, the INS is not designed to scrutinize immigrants, but to put plans into effect that make it more difficult for citizens to leave, should they desire.. The government could care less who is sneaking across the border looking for a better life. It's more desirable the have the tax cattle unable to leave if they get fed up, especially when there aren't many other countries that don't also have stringent immigration laws. Nearly any country will take you if you bring a lot of money, but no country wants you to leave with a lot of their play money, thus the linked article in the original post.
Carl Green Posted September 1, 2014 Posted September 1, 2014 it occurred to me that this probably won't have the affect they're going for. If they raise the barrier to exit, you only let the richer productive classes out of the country, leaving only the poor to foot the bill. Kind of an Atlas Shrugged thing playing out.The bill raised the exit taxes considerably as well, I beleive.
luxfelix Posted September 2, 2014 Posted September 2, 2014 This reminds me of what Andrew Henderson discusses on his site Nomad Capitalist: http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/09/01/becoming-expat-entrepreneur-interview-eventual-millionaire/?utm_campaign=Nomad+Capitalist&utm_content=%5B%5Brssitem_title%5D%5D&utm_medium=email&utm_source=getresponse&utm_term=Daily+Newsletter
Carl Green Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 could one just dump all their money into BTC or some other crypto before expatting to get around the extra taxes? i guess you'll just have to pay the fee if you ever wanna come back.
cab21 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 it looks like the fee raise is simply from 450 to 2350, hardly something that will make it so "only the rich can leave". the 2350 is likely not much per hour of work the government has to put into this service wise, but the question is why does government mandate this service in the first place.
luxfelix Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 More info on fee hikes: http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/09/10/how-to-renew-a-us-passport-circumcision/?utm_campaign=Nomad+Capitalist&utm_content=%5B%5Brssitem_title%5D%5D&utm_medium=email&utm_source=getresponse&utm_term=Daily+Newsletter
nathanm Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 Don't worry about it, once you get to the free market paradise of Somolia you will forget all about your crappy US dollars. Don't forget that a shadowy man in a suit will come and present you with a gold bar just before you leave.
Josh F Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 As an expat, let me tell you the US passport means less and less every year. Here in S America, Argentina and Brazil charge over a hundred bucks for Americans to just come into their country. They consider it a reciprocity fee for the high costs for them to go to the US.
luxfelix Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 As an expat, let me tell you the US passport means less and less every year. Here in S America, Argentina and Brazil charge over a hundred bucks for Americans to just come into their country. They consider it a reciprocity fee for the high costs for them to go to the US. Another reason to get a second passport, eh? (Though it would be nice if we didn't need them to begin with...)
Josh F Posted September 10, 2014 Posted September 10, 2014 seriously, i wish i didnt have to give one up to gain another. I think only Israel does the dual thing for people who aren't born there, otherwise you need family from the other country I believe
st434u Posted September 11, 2014 Posted September 11, 2014 Besides the jokes about the fact that they say there's no inflation, the funniest part is how they said this is just supply and demand, and how there's so many people requesting the form now, that they had to jack up prices. It makes you wonder what they think this says about the political situation in the US, since so many people are willing to pay just to be able to leave. By the way, in case someone doesn't know, just because you pay the form, doesn't mean they have to approve it. You're not paying for your ability to leave, you're paying for your ability to request permission to leave. And they can literally come up with any reason they want to reject your plea to renounce your US citizenship. For instance, if you say (or even if they have reason to suspect) that you want to renounce it because taxes in the US are too high, they will automatically use that as a reason to reject your request, even if you've already paid them all the taxes they want, including the exit tax. For people who are US citizens, especially those living abroad, this should be a wake up call. It looks like things are only getting worse, and if you don't renounce your citizenship soon, you may never be able to. It's not an easy choice to make, but it is certainly something you should be considering.
luxfelix Posted September 12, 2014 Posted September 12, 2014 Does anyone have first-hand information about (experience) living state-less (without citizenship to any country), and what that entails?
luxfelix Posted September 12, 2014 Posted September 12, 2014 Another article related to citizenship and second passports: http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/09/12/second-citizenships-can-get-marrying-a-foreigner/?utm_campaign=Nomad+Capitalist&utm_content=%5B%5Brssitem_title%5D%5D&utm_medium=email&utm_source=getresponse&utm_term=Daily+Newsletter
Josh F Posted September 12, 2014 Posted September 12, 2014 Does anyone have first-hand information about (experience) living state-less (without citizenship to any country), and what that entails? For the most part it is functionally impossible to do that and participate completely in the economy. That being said, I've known a few people who have done it to varying degrees. One in particular, the guy is a super hippy who literally sleeps in a horse stable and feeds himself on food he collects in the jungle. In some countries it is easier than others. For the most part, it involves a lot of sneaking around. Most borders in the world are not watched. The roads are watched, but for example if you were in Mexico you could make your way all the way to the tip of Argentina without running into a fence you need to hop. Most people doing this are going in the opposite direction (and often with a backpack full of cocaine), so its very possible. Besides the jokes about the fact that they say there's no inflation, the funniest part is how they said this is just supply and demand, and how there's so many people requesting the form now, that they had to jack up prices. It makes you wonder what they think this says about the political situation in the US, since so many people are willing to pay just to be able to leave. By the way, in case someone doesn't know, just because you pay the form, doesn't mean they have to approve it. You're not paying for your ability to leave, you're paying for your ability to request permission to leave. And they can literally come up with any reason they want to reject your plea to renounce your US citizenship. For instance, if you say (or even if they have reason to suspect) that you want to renounce it because taxes in the US are too high, they will automatically use that as a reason to reject your request, even if you've already paid them all the taxes they want, including the exit tax. For people who are US citizens, especially those living abroad, this should be a wake up call. It looks like things are only getting worse, and if you don't renounce your citizenship soon, you may never be able to. It's not an easy choice to make, but it is certainly something you should be considering. Fortunately there are almost no places in the world which require you to give up your citizenship to live there. And the US passport is one of the more powerful ones in the world, giving you access to most countries as a tourist without special visas, and allows you to become a resident in most countries (since the assumption is that you have some money). But these perks are in decline. Anecdotally, I got a passport renewed in a foreign country. They included a pamphlet with the new passport. The title read "The World is Yours" lol
luxfelix Posted September 13, 2014 Posted September 13, 2014 Thank you Thought Terrorist. Do you happen to know what countries are the most free (least laws, freest market, least violence, highest prosperity, etc.) since it is, for the most part, functionally impossible to live stateless in the world today?
st434u Posted September 13, 2014 Posted September 13, 2014 Fortunately there are almost no places in the world which require you to give up your citizenship to live there. That's not what it is about. The US is one of the only countries in the world who tax you on income you earn abroad after you leave, even if you never set foot in the country again for decades, and have no income coming from within the US, they will still tax you on what you're making elsewhere. I think the only other country that does that is some obscure tiny country in the middle of Africa. And the US passport is one of the more powerful ones in the world, giving you access to most countries as a tourist without special visas, and allows you to become a resident in most countries (since the assumption is that you have some money). But these perks are in decline. As a tourist maybe. Like you said, many countries that allow pretty much anybody with a passport to come in will charge a special fee or put restrictions for US citizens in particular. But more importantly, try opening a bank or brokerage account in Switzerland or pretty much anywhere in Europe (as well as increasingly the rest of the world) and you may suddenly find that they will only open an account for you if you're not a US citizen, or at least you will encounter significant restrictions that are not in place for non-US citizens.
Josh F Posted September 13, 2014 Posted September 13, 2014 That's not what it is about. The US is one of the only countries in the world who tax you after you live, even if never set foot in the country again for decades, they will still tax you. I think the only other country that does that is some obscure tiny country in the middle of Africa. As a tourist maybe. Like you said, many countries that allow pretty much anybody with a passport to come in will charge or put restrictions for US citizens in particular. But more importantly, try opening a bank or brokerage account in Switzerland or pretty much anywhere in Europe (as well as increasingly the rest of the world) and you will suddenlty find that they will only open an account for you if you're not a US citizen. To your first point, yes. Apparently they still expect taxes. Which is hilariously insane, since you have to already pay taxes in the country you earned the money in, essentially a double tax. As for banking abroad.... dude, you're talking to someone who had to deal with this a LOT. Let me tell you, its a damn hassle!!! Now, most of the hassle is very recent, and its all coming out of the US. Here in Uruguay where I currently live, recent impositions from US banks have made opening an account here for me very difficult, so much so that most banks don't want to even bother with it. The government here is currently creating an entire office dedicated specifically to US citizen's banking needs, just because its such an extra hassle. The work around, if you care to know, is corporate personhood. Just create a corporation in the country, it has more legal rights than you do, lol. Thank you Thought Terrorist. Do you happen to know what countries are the most free (least laws, freest market, least violence, highest prosperity, etc.) since it is, for the most part, functionally impossible to live stateless in the world today? I kind of look at it too ways. The first is economic freedom, and second is personal freedom. Often a country will excel at one and fail at the other. For example, in Costa Rica you can functionally do almost anything. There is very little policing going on, and in many places you find the whole community, cops included, have a live and let live philosophy with most things. For business, its somewhere in the middle. Meanwhile in Singapore, the economy is very free market and opening a business is a cinch. However, if you've heard any of the stories out of there even spitting gum on the floor can land you in jail. Let alone smoking a joint, peeing outside, etc. I think the Scandinavian countries have the best balance, possibly followed by New Zealand. I'd give Norway the #1 spot from what I know. The country with the easiest access to residency is where I currently live, Uruguay. It costs nothing, you just need a few documents, and its a painless process. This factor attracts a lot of people escaping more violent or desolate countries, esp Venezuela and the Dom Rep. Its a fairly peaceful society and is the second freest economy in S America after Chile. Though... in both cases... socialism is on the rise.
st434u Posted September 13, 2014 Posted September 13, 2014 Now, most of the hassle is very recent, and its all coming out of the US. Here in Uruguay where I currently live, recent impositions from US banks have made opening an account here for me very difficult, so much so that most banks don't want to even bother with it. The government here is currently creating an entire office dedicated specifically to US citizen's banking needs, just because its such an extra hassle. The work around, if you care to know, is corporate personhood. Just create a corporation in the country, it has more legal rights than you do, lol. Yeah, that would work. How are things in Uruguay? I've been there a couple times over the last few years, but I didn't leave with as good an impression as I had before going. I encountered a lot more socialism than I was expecting. Still a lot better than Argentina, though.
Josh F Posted September 13, 2014 Posted September 13, 2014 Yeah, that would work. How are things in Uruguay? I've been there a couple times over the last few years, but I didn't leave with as good an impression as I had before going. I encountered a lot more socialism than I was expecting. Still a lot better than Argentina, though. I'm enjoying it a lot. It is a very peaceful country, and the people are nice. For me, its like the Canada of latin America. The socialism thing is interesting and I can't say I've fully put my finger on it. I'd say firstly, they're no more socialist than the US. They have left some key economic sectors relatively untouched, like banking and business regulations. They've also done something which I saw in Costa Rica, which is that they'll split an institution like Health Care into two systems and keep them separated. So they have a universal healthcare system here (which sucks), but the private healthcare system is not burdened by it. As a result, the monthly health insurance cost for private care is less than $40. And it includes house calls for your check-ups! The min wage is like $1/hr I believe, and unemployment here is extremely low, though growing since the rise of socialism. At one point, it was under 1% Some things work out too, like they limit the meat and dairy exports which keeps the cost on their very high quality meat/dairy products cheap inside the country. I havent renounced my citizenship, though its crossed my mind.
luxfelix Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 Another article discussing the Scottish Secession Movement and "going where you're treated best" (until there is an actual free society at least?): http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/09/19/scottish-independence-life-petri-dish/?utm_campaign=Nomad+Capitalist&utm_content=%5B%5Brssitem_title%5D%5D&utm_medium=email&utm_source=getresponse&utm_term=Daily+Newsletter Also relevant: http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/04/24/countries-secession-movements-from-government/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/07/23/why-i-prefer-small-countries-and-limited-government/
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