#likeagirl hashtag

[Kevin Beal]

There is a new trending hashtag out there called #likeagirl. I don't know if it was started by the Always marketing team or they just ran with it, but it's in the name of empowering women.

 

The hashtag refers to taunts like "you throw like a girl!"

 

Here's the video I was alluding to:

 

Many feminists have taken the fact that this phrase exists as proof of sexism against women. In the video one woman claims that this phrase is used to put girls down and humiliate them.

 

Despite a powerful video, I remain unconvinced.

 

Here's what I wrote in response to the video:

 

It may also be the case that "girl" implies being childlike, and being childlike comes with undeveloped coordination and physical abilities. If you had asked them to run like a "woman", I'm guessing that you would have gotten a different response.

 

It's not like males don't get similar and equivalent taunting. To be a boy rather than a man is to be considered weak, out of control and spastic.

 

I would hesitate to chalk this one up so quickly to sexism as people are want to do. To do this justice, you can't vaguely imply sexism and consider it explained.

 

I won't pretend to know what it's like to be a girl, but I would just ask the same humility in return when it comes to the reasons boys say things like "you throw like a girl".

 

Certainly there are boys and girls who are quick to humiliate others, and that's obviously destructive, but this same phrase was often used to tease. That being the way that kids express an interest in each other.

 

And also, to ask to "run like a girl", you are asking that as compared to running like a boy or a man. And there are many studies that show a significant difference between the sexes when it comes to eye-hand coordination and other similar skills in the favor of the males of our species.

 

Natural sex differences are exaggerated in contrast to each other

 

If you asked these same people to clean up after themselves like a boy, or play nice like a boy, you'd get an exaggerated version of these acts. That is, very poorly executed.

 

As a young boy growing up, I was told that my sex was responsible for all the war and suffering in the world. While I was going thru puberty and figuring out who I was and becoming a man, this was a source of a significant amount of conflict for me, as I felt as if I was being asked to apologize for things I had nothing to do with because I was born with a penis.

 

If this is empowering to girls then great. How could I possibly argue with that? But if this is being used to promote the current zeitgeist, that women are uniquely disadvantaged, the one that I have come to resent, I would just like to instill a drop of healthy doubt.

 

This raises some interesting questions for me, though.

 

There are a lot of expectations put on children that they should conform to gender roles. One I remember very vividly was that I would be a sex-obsessed oaf of a man, and I remember girls telling me that I was a pervert for wanting to see women naked.

 

I hesitate to just chalk it all up to sexism, though. I don't understand how it explains anything. It's not in the strictest sense the hatred or fear of men to label us sex obsessed oafs.

 

I wonder how much of these accusations are really repressed fantasies that we have. Do a lot of women want men to be sex obsessed and barely able to contain their lust for them? Is the supposed rape culture really just a repressed desire to experience male domination? This is what JudgyBitch thinks.

 

On the other side of the coin, the accusation that women are entitled or crazy or whatever other things men will sometimes toss out there (and some women too), are those repressed desires of men?

 

Then there are people who own these accusations, like men who say "yea, all we care / think about is sex", or women who say "yea, it's true, women are crazy". Are they just like the most honest people and there are real biological explanations for all of this that we need to come to terms with? Or is it something less noble?

 

Why are expectations about gender so incredibly controversial and fucked up? I really don't get it.

[MMX2010]

 

 

Why are expectations about gender so incredibly controversial and fucked up? I really don't get it.

 

There are only three types of women: Pretty Women, Medium and Nice Women, and Ugly Women.

 

Pretty Women don't need feminism because they're pretty.  In the absence of feminism, pretty women are (in rare cases of extreme craziness / immoral behavior) well-provided for by latching themselves on to men. 

 

Medium and Nice Women don't get the same level of attention, validation, and provision than Pretty Women.  In the absence of feminism, these women are moderately well-provided for. 

 

Ugly women absolutely need feminism because they're ugly.  In the absence of feminism, these women are rarely provided for and are therefore doomed to a life of spinsterhood AND working crappy jobs (or staying at home to care for mom and dad in old age). 

 

Ugly women must say that ALL women are oppressed because that appeals to Medium and Nice Women.  Their loud, angry complaints persuade Medium Women to vote for candidates who are pro-feminism.  Ugly Women's complaints must be exaggerated, because they wouldn't appeal to Medium Women and politicians if they weren't exaggerated. 

[Wuzzums]

 

It may also be the case that "girl" implies being childlike, and being childlike comes with undeveloped coordination and physical abilities. 

 

There's actually more truth to this: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=girl

[Prairie]

Why are expectations about gender so incredibly controversial and fucked up? I really don't get it.

Coming from a perspective of an outsider to this, I think that the drive to be sexual with other people and the belief that it will eventually be deeply satisfying drives most of this. Especially for people who want to be sexual with those classified as the other sex than themselves, frustrations with meeting one's sexual goals turn into stereotypes around the sex a person is classified as, and anger towards the entire grouping of people. The ability of people classified as the other sex than oneself to grant or not grant one's sexual wishes and fantasies can be very frustrating.Couple this with being trained to deal with one's emotions by projecting on to others, explaining them as externally-caused, stereotypes are the obvious conclusion. Self-knowledge and taking ownership of emotions is foreign and seen as letting these awful other-sexed people get away with things.Further, from even childhood people are taught that their very being is one sex or another, and that behavior must fall within limits or they are risking being non-sexed and thus being nothing as a person. I think this probably ties in with sexuality of adults and maintaining the system (someone pointed out that perhaps there is a sense that without this system people wouldn't procreate and humans wouldn't continue to inhabit Earth). So this identity-based notion works with the sexuality-fulfillment-based one.I see it as all smoke and mirrors, endless imaginary walls and paths that people must not run into and must stay on, and imaginary injuries to justify using force to keep people following them.

[MMX2010]

I wanted to add a second perspective: the way gender-equality produces projection. 

 

If the genders are equal and men like sensitive, caring women, then men presume they should be caring and sensitive.

 

If the genders are equal and women like confident, assertive men, then women presume they should be confident and assertive.

[hannahbanana]

I agree that the amount of pressure for gender-conformity in children there is now is pretty heartbreaking. And I feel like if there was a real desire to generate equality between sexes (in cases where there really is inequality, for men and women), they would look first to children. You see it in the way kids are treated by all adults (the mischievous boy versus the well-behaved girl), the toys that are provided (boys' toys are focused on problem solving and creation, girls' toys are focused on aesthetics and domestic topics), and the way they are expected to treat each other ("no girls allowed" and the idea of cooties). To act in the opposite way gets you possible disapproval from adults and teasing/ostracism from other children. No wonder people grow up treating the opposite sex like another species, because they are treated as such as children. But most gender-equality movements don't seem to give a shit, and that makes me really sad.

[Lars]

Typical feminists completely blind to the fact that men are stigmatized as well (in a far more destructive manner, comparing gender suicide rates). I would guess the reasons why they're so concerned about this 'like a girl' rubbish is because 1. they selectively associate with assholes 2. they wish to further usurp the position of alpha males in society.Whatever, they'll just have to deal with it when all the good partners turn zeta due to their incessant arrogance. Sure, tough single mother, aim for the top of the business world or perhaps devote all of your time to economically worthless hobbies - follow your dreams! Those kids you had on the side will be fine dumped in a daycare. Makes me sick.

[Triumph]

They're not blind that men are stigmatized too, they choose to ignore it.  Current feminism is where sadist women gather to find targets to abuse.  They don't care about women's rights in a practical sense.  This commercial is just an attempt to stay relavent, and to provide justification for more abuse for them to inflict on men and women who don't agree with them.

[Lars]

Feminists choose to ignore and downplay male issues as if it's like an obese person whining about running out of maple syrup for their delicious pancakes.

[Kevin Beal]

To act in the opposite way gets you possible disapproval from adults and teasing/ostracism from other children. No wonder people grow up treating the opposite sex like another species, because they are treated as such as children. But most gender-equality movements don't seem to give a shit, and that makes me really sad.

For what it's worth, I think you make a really good point, but I'm reminded that technically speaking, the sexes are as genetically dissimilar as between a male human and a male chimpanzee (98.5%), or female human and female chimp.

 

I hate the social disapproval children experience for such trivial things as playing with toys from the other side of Toys R Us. It makes me angry that people would put so much importance on that. I used to love doll houses as a kid and played with "girl toys" from time to time. I thought about what it would be like to have family of my own at a very young age. My best friend in kindergarten was a girl for a period. It wasn't until later that I became aware of how bad all of that is supposed to be.

 

But regardless, the differences between the sexes is very real, and affects brain composition, the eyes, muscle distribution, how disease affects us and a ton of other factors that aren't just the naughty bits. And it's not very clear to me how these natural differences manifest, when there is so much propaganda about how men and women are and should be. Simply having a frank discussion about this has been really difficult for me, and I'm guessing I'm not alone in that. And the gender roles you mention, I'm sure, are a big reason why it's so unclear.

 

I'm left with this compelling mystique about the "other" that is woman. How you ladies tick is a question I would pay very good money to finally have answered. I've read all kinds of things online and it all leaves me more confused or frustrated. It's part of what makes me attracted to women in the first place.

 

I just don't understand how people can say that something is sexist when we aren't as a society talking candidly about our differences. It's all very political, in the worst sense of the word. And I feel betrayed by feminism. I was promised a true and unbiased examination of men and women, without the fog of patriarchy blinding me.

 

My parents were are emotionally stunted half children themselves and were of little use in this regard. I remember after sharing that I had found one of the softcore porno channels on my friend's TV, my brother revealed to me the secret (unprompted) that women actually enjoy sex too. It was a shock to me! And I became aware of the secret nature of sex and gender.

 

My friends and I would compare notes and the crazy degree of misinformation we all had makes me both laugh and grieve the desperate lengths we went to in trying to figure out the most simple of things. And it's frustrating that it still happens to me in my 27th year of life. Why does nobody know the relatively large genetic differences between the sexes or the difference in brain composition and structure? This should not be such hard information to find.

 

Maybe it's the case that girls don't run or throw balls as good as boys. And maybe it's a pathetic thing for boys to hold over girls who gained this advantage by sheer accident. I don't know, but I'm tired of all the landmines that I'm supposed to navigate should I decide to try and talk openly and have the hubris of not wanting to blow my leg off.

 

I'm not saying that you are doing anything to prevent open discussion, the opposite is true. I really appreciate your input on this subject. I'm just embittered by all the political correctness there is around sex differences.

 

I hope you don't mind the rant. I've been holding this in for a while and took the opportunity to express some things.

[hannahbanana]

 

Thanks for the response, you bring up good points I guess I wasn't saying that gender differences don't exist, I'm more sharing in the frustration that we are unable to have candid discussions about them (which is what you just said, correct?). But my point before was that, to add to the confusion, there are some expectations put on boys and girls to be separate from one another, or to accentuate their differences, thus making it unclear as to what is a 'real' difference and what is a 'fake' difference. And then, to make matters EVEN worse, it is disapproved of to acknowledge real differences and sometimes even impossible (since it is supposedly bad to have a friend of the opposite sex, divisions make it difficult to have a proper dialogue with most people). It frustrates me that these things are so obviously obstructions, and yet the people who claim to care seem to do nothing about it, especially since these things affect children so much.

[Josh F]

There is a new trending hashtag out there called #likeagirl. I don't know if it was started by the Always marketing team or they just ran with it, but it's in the name of empowering women.

 

Why are expectations about gender so incredibly controversial and fucked up? I really don't get it.

 

 

I've been really into this topic recently.  I moved to Uruguay, and for whatever reason I found myself making a lot of gay friends.  I'm not a homophobic person at all, but I've kind of thought of gender as unimportant.  At first, things like queer theory just seemed like bourgeois attempts at victimhood.  Facebook has some 50 plus options now for your gender, things like pansexual and cis-gender.  

 

It took me some time to realize that queer-theory was very compatible with other rejections of inherited social norms, like religion and government.  Gender bias in queer theory is called heteronormative, the idea is that we consider traditional male female straight relationships the norm and everything else abnormal.  

 

Now, I think the above message is completely unimportant.  The reason women can't physically compete with men is not because of social programming, but biological reality.  That is very much within the category of SEX and not gender.  There are differences between the sexes which inform those stereotypes.  More importantly, attempting to change the way people talk can only be accomplished through shaming, violence, or an ACTUAL change in understanding.  If women were suddenly to start beating men in sports, then saying "she hits like a girl" will mean something very different.  Until that day, I think shame is a horrible way to accomplish change, especially for anyone interested in gender issues, which are all about heterosexuals shaming them.  

 

Lastly, ask female athletes their opinion. Do they think people saying "you hit like a girl" was a hinderance to their accomplishments?  I doubt it.

 

 

Oh, and who is "you hit like a girl" designed to insult?  Women?  No. Men.  Its something a man says to another man to shame him.  I never tell a women you hit like a girl, that makes no sense.  They also never say "you do math like a girl."  Its only physical things.  So why is being female considering weakness when it comes to physical activity?  Because women... are weaker... physically.  

[PGP]

I'd like to throw my grenade into the mix. As mentioned above, there are definite and measurable differences in males and females from a genetic perspective. Now, bringing in the epigenetic development and dynamic interaction with environment can intensify or dilute or possibly counteract the predisposition at birth. For example, the brain can be extremely plastic due to environment in early years (saw this recently, may be of interest: http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/men-are-from-mars-women-from-venus-myth-harmful-285155.html ).

Now, why are boys and girls treated differently or encouraged down different lines in the early years? Perhaps because the parents and wider society deem these treatments and the consequences as desirable and additive to survival and success? Perhaps to maintain the status quo to what has been proven to work in the past over countless generations?

For example, East German weight-lifters of the female sex ended up exhibiting alot of the male characteristics due to training and not a little use of growth hormones etc. This met the social ideal and goals of the "society" in which they lived. In the end, the individual suffered horrendously for the collective. Other examples abound in different societies, feet-binding, Female and male circumcision, pillorying of weakness or emotional expression in boys and so on.

Now, we have reached a point through feminism, rule of law and technology etc. that alot of the desirable traits encouraged in development are perceived, or perhaps are, detrimental to an individual of the male or female sex reaching their own individual potential. So, formerly desirable traits are now viewed as limiting. Therefore they should not be perpetuated in this paradigm.

So, I have heard of the genderless upbringing in some countries such as Sweden. One key question for me is, what will the consequences of this genderless upbringing be? Will physical ability be narrowed, perhaps nullified? Will different spatial, reasoning, mathematical, communicating skills etc be much more shared in the absence of gender-direction in childhood? 

Above all, for me, the question will be: is this desirable on a civilisational level? Are the differences between the sexes genetically and then in development now irrelevant? To be discarded? 

Perhaps, the question of children being made to feel bad for doing certain things (like boys playing with dolls or whatever) has no answer. Maybe this shaming of certain behaviours or the corollary of genderless upbringing are just different strategies to achieving success for the individual and by extension the group. 

[endostate]

It seems these types of groups disregard sexual dimorphism.  They should see the difference between men and women's olympic records!

[J. D. Stembal]

It seems these types of groups disregard sexual dimorphism.  They should see the difference between men and women's olympic records!

 

No, feminists completely understand the above term as it relates to walking home alone at night in a high-crime section of the city, where a man may use his superior aggression and strength to mug, rape, kidnap, or murder a physically inferior woman.

 

[Josh F]

Wow, that list of things women can't do sounds like it was written by a man in the 1800s.  Women should avoid meeting with men alone in their homes.  Women should avoid dressing scantily.  Women should avoid traveling alone, talking back to a man, or talking to strange men.

 

Then it asks at the end, what worries you?  The draft.  Alimony.  Being registered as a sex offender for public urination.  

 

Think its awkward being a single woman on a subway with only men?  Try being a single man at a park filled with mothers and their children.  

 

Things are just different.  

[shirgall]

Wow, that list of things women can't do sounds like it was written by a man in the 1800s. 

 

The amusing part of that is that it was the women that set the rules of Victorian Age society, not the men. Basically an entire gender engaged in "price fixing".

[Josh F]

yeah I think the horizontal oppression, women shaming other women, is more prominent than the vertical oppression of more powerful men shaming women.  

[Lars]

It's ridiculous to judge a person's value by physical ability or appearance in the first place.

[fractional slacker]

I thought post #1 and # 2 were both great. Sorry, I haven't read every post after that. 

Egalitarians hate empiricism, and that seems to be the rub here: biology is somehow conspiring with the patriarchy. In general girls do look funny and awkward throwing a ball or running compared to boys. What's the solution? Make a career out of promoting sophistry and sucking up to the state to make sure females always have a victim card to play.  I would describe these professors of non sense as social parasites.