Monsters

[Brazilda]

*Warning: disturbing, reprehensible details shared here

 

In a recent video, the antidote to cruelty, I found revealing parallels between myself and the first caller. Basically the caller killed animals when he was younger and in his mind he was justified. Stefan pointed out that when he was younger his father was cruel to him and in his mind he was also justified. I think towards the end of the call Stef says that no one is born wanting to kill small animals. 

 

When I was younger I was messing around with this sickly cat and when it scratched me I used that as an excuse in my mind to escalate until eventually I tied the cat in a plastic bag, took it to the pond behind my house, dropped a big stone on it, then threw it in the water where I left it to drown. 

 

Maybe 3-5 years before that I was beaten by my father because I didn't respond to him with "sir". He cornered me in my room and put his hand around my throat and pressed me into the wall and was demanding that I "respect" him. I guess I knew I wasnt in mortal danger because I didnt comply, with my mom screaming at him to stop he kept hitting me until she ran out of the room and came back with some heavy metal object that she used to smash him over the head with until he released me. 

 

Ever since the incident with the cat I've had a deep hatred and contempt for myself brewing inside. I've always known that anyone who is capable of doing what I did that day is a disgusting worthless piece of shit. It wasn't until the antidote to cruelty that I connected the dots, that my father wasn't really concerned about respect, thats just an excuse he invented to hurt me. And just like my 300+ lb father I found a weak helpless creature to impose my impossible rules on in order to inflict pain. 

 

My father was severely abused by his father, and my grandfather's father was a macho military man, so I think my family has been composed of sadists for quite a while. I feel extremely emotional about all of this and I'm not sure what I'm hoping to gain from posting this here, maybe someone can confirm that my childhood indeed played a role in the cruelty I am responsible for. 

[Tyler Durden]

I understand how you feel. And unfortunately I can't absolve you of your guilt, it was your own decision to do that to the cat.

 

But the story about what your father did to you explains a lot. The simple fact that he demanded to be addressed as sir indicates how much distance there was between the two of you. And the violence is absolutely brutal. There's no denying that the abuse he inflicted on you influenced your behavior.

 

I also don't think it's very productive to continue feeling hatred and contempt for yourself and calling yourself a disgusting worthless piece of shit. So I would start looking for a way to make up for what you did.

 

Obviously you can't make it up to that particular cat. But there are many things you can do to improve the lives of other animals. I'd say that if you go vegetarian for a year you'll be pretty much back on track with the rest of the people. If you keep it up longer you can even become more considerate of animals than the average person.

 

Apart from that, therapy is probably a good idea, to process the abuse your father inflicted on you.

[MMX2010]

Seconding everything Tyler Durden said, why not volunteer for a local animal shelter?  You'll see first-hand just how cruel other people have been to animals, but this time you'll be in a position to help. 

[JanneW]

Edit: I see that while I was typing a lot of stuff, Tyler summed up things pretty well... Only read if interested in my dual theory of shame.

 

Wow, Brazilda, how brave of you to face up to what you did so many years ago. I appreciate that you put a warning at the top of your post; when I'm forewarned of bad stuff coming, I'm able dial back my empathy and not be affected so much by what I'm reading - thank you.

 

Regarding what you might gain from posting this, my take would be this: You probably were very young when you did this and you also had had very, very bad behavior modelled to you. I'm very sorry for the terrible thing your father did to you and I can guess the rest of your childhood, at least around your father, was probably quite bad as well. His actions that day towards you were truly abhorrent.

 

But you posted about your actions towards the cat, and I'm guessing that nothing I just said is much of a surprise to you. Back then you were a child, of limited moral responsibility, but when you think of your actions now, you being much older, what happens for you when you think of this?

 

I'm not sure what you gain by posting this. To give you an analogy, I remember doing something I was (and still am) ashamed of and how I have processed it so far. I grew up in socialist eastern Germany and one day there was a meeting one teacher arranged with four of us 16 year-olds, to pressure us into pledging ourselves into the army for a longer than the compulsory term. None of us wanted to do that, only I was safe from danger, because I have a medical condition that precluded me from military service. The teacher kept putting pressure on the other guys, they defended themselves and I got very uncomfortable. I don't know what cues triggered me to open my goddam mouth, but I heard myself say to one of them something like: 'Oh, but don't you believe in the neccessity of defending our country?' Luckily they kept to their stances in spite of my back-stabbing. I'm ashamed of that action. But what came of that feeling? I was ashamed of myself for many years, and I think that's how it should be, even though I had been inculcated with doctrine and with a fear whenever I didn't please people in authority, yadda yadda. I carried the shame of this action unaltered for 20 years, because there was no way for me to make restitution, just like in your case. The shame did lessen not before I learned a great deal more about myself. A few years ago I spent some time going over this and other shameful memories. At first, I didn't want to really fully go into the feeling of my shame and I skirted around it, as if only fleetingly touching a hot stove. But when I finally let myself fully experience the feeling, it subsided to a small ember. And I think this is because I know of myself that I have changed a lot. That I am much less prone to do shameful things to avoid discomfort in conversation, and actually had in the meantime done some brave things in confrontations.

 

My theory, if you want to hear it, is this: There is a kind of shame that you feel completely within yourself. It has nothing to do with other people knowing about what you did. It comes from you having acted against your values, and it is there to help you learn from your experience. I make a habit of revisiting shameful memories now, to find out what they are telling me. When the lesson is learned, the shame might grow less, but a small reminder remains to make sure I remember always. On my path to living my values I welcome that.

 

There exists a different kind of shame, and this kind has to do with other people witnessing your actions. It is frequently used to ensure social conformity. "Uh, you're not like the others, shame on you!" I try to grow indifferent to this manipulative abuse of the feeling of shame. I think healthy shame is a very private feeling.

 

Long story short: I'm a little suspicious of airing one's self-contempt in public, especially since you simultaneously supplied some backstory that could be seen as indemnifying you. Indeed, what are you trying to gain here? Are you trying to provoke in yourself the second kind of shame? I'm alarmed that you feel hatred towards yourself. I don't know when hatred towards oneself would ever be justified. Whatever you have done, you need to deal with it and learn from it. In my mind, self-hatred is just self-attack, likely programmed into you by people like your father. Maybe you can work towards losing the self-hatred as a first step, before revisiting what might be useful private shame over you drowning the cat?

 

Of course I might be completely wrong. I'd very much like to know what the others think. And I'd like to know what you think, Brazilda? Did I bring some clarity to your feelings or did I muddle things up? I very much admire you exploring your relationship with cruelty!

[charlesp]

Edit: I see that while I was typing a lot of stuff, Tyler summed up things pretty well... Only read if interested in my dual theory of shame.

 

Wow, Brazilda, how brave of you to face up to what you did so many years ago. I appreciate that you put a warning at the top of your post; when I'm forewarned of bad stuff coming, I'm able dial back my empathy and not be affected so much by what I'm reading - thank you.

 

Regarding what you might gain from posting this, my take would be this: You probably were very young when you did this and you also had had very, very bad behavior modelled to you. I'm very sorry for the terrible thing your father did to you and I can guess the rest of your childhood, at least around your father, was probably quite bad as well. His actions that day towards you were truly abhorrent.

 

But you posted about your actions towards the cat, and I'm guessing that nothing I just said is much of a surprise to you. Back then you were a child, of limited moral responsibility, but when you think of your actions now, you being much older, what happens for you when you think of this?

 

I'm not sure what you gain by posting this. To give you an analogy, I remember doing something I was (and still am) ashamed of and how I have processed it so far. I grew up in socialist eastern Germany and one day there was a meeting one teacher arranged with four of us 16 year-olds, to pressure us into pledging ourselves into the army for a longer than the compulsory term. None of us wanted to do that, only I was safe from danger, because I have a medical condition that precluded me from military service. The teacher kept putting pressure on the other guys, they defended themselves and I got very uncomfortable. I don't know what cues triggered me to open my goddam mouth, but I heard myself say to one of them something like: 'Oh, but don't you believe in the neccessity of defending our country?' Luckily they kept to their stances in spite of my back-stabbing. I'm ashamed of that action. But what came of that feeling? I was ashamed of myself for many years, and I think that's how it should be, even though I had been inculcated with doctrine and with a fear whenever I didn't please people in authority, yadda yadda. I carried the shame of this action unaltered for 20 years, because there was no way for me to make restitution, just like in your case. The shame did lessen not before I learned a great deal more about myself. A few years ago I spent some time going over this and other shameful memories. At first, I didn't want to really fully go into the feeling of my shame and I skirted around it, as if only fleetingly touching a hot stove. But when I finally let myself fully experience the feeling, it subsided to a small ember. And I think this is because I know of myself that I have changed a lot. That I am much less prone to do shameful things to avoid discomfort in conversation, and actually had in the meantime done some brave things in confrontations.

 

My theory, if you want to hear it, is this: There is a kind of shame that you feel completely within yourself. It has nothing to do with other people knowing about what you did. It comes from you having acted against your values, and it is there to help you learn from your experience. I make a habit of revisiting shameful memories now, to find out what they are telling me. When the lesson is learned, the shame might grow less, but a small reminder remains to make sure I remember always. On my path to living my values I welcome that.

 

There exists a different kind of shame, and this kind has to do with other people witnessing your actions. It is frequently used to ensure social conformity. "Uh, you're not like the others, shame on you!" I try to grow indifferent to this manipulative abuse of the feeling of shame. I think healthy shame is a very private feeling.

 

Long story short: I'm a little suspicious of airing one's self-contempt in public, especially since you simultaneously supplied some backstory that could be seen as indemnifying you. Indeed, what are you trying to gain here? Are you trying to provoke in yourself the second kind of shame? I'm alarmed that you feel hatred towards yourself. I don't know when hatred towards oneself would ever be justified. Whatever you have done, you need to deal with it and learn from it. In my mind, self-hatred is just self-attack, likely programmed into you by people like your father. Maybe you can work towards losing the self-hatred as a first step, before revisiting what might be useful private shame over you drowning the cat?

 

Of course I might be completely wrong. I'd very much like to know what the others think. And I'd like to know what you think, Brazilda? Did I bring some clarity to your feelings or did I muddle things up? I very much admire you exploring your relationship with cruelty!

I think you're on the right track in general, I'm not suspicious of him airing it here though, I find this forum to be an incredibly safe place to talk about things that pretty nobody else in my life knows about.

Back to Brazilda, I think Janne is on the right track, and that your self shame or hatred is something to learn from, but also look at your self hatred like this; who would you rather have punch you in the face? Me? or yourself? Your self hatred and shaming (i'm totally the blind leading the blind here so stick with me im new at this) is basically punishing yourself as hard as you can to absolve you of the outside shame and hatred. I think i did a horrible job with that example but I just actually had a similar discussion with my therapist Monday night. i had told him about a situation from my mid 20s where I expected my parents to kill me, they were generally not super when I grew up, so I truly expected a Full Metal Jacket level verbal beatdown if not actual death. I didn't get it from them, so I spent 6 months torturing myself. Not eating, no socializing, I made my house a prison for 6 months and if I accidentally found myself having fun I cut it off instantly.

I think now that I punished the hell out of myself because I knew I wouldn't hurt me as bad as they COULD hurt me. Not sure if that might resonate or not, but feel free to message me or something if you need someone to talk to.

[Brazilda]

I understand how you feel. And unfortunately I can't absolve you of your guilt, it was your own decision to do that to the cat.

 

But the story about what your father did to you explains a lot. The simple fact that he demanded to be addressed as sir indicates how much distance there was between the two of you. And the violence is absolutely brutal. There's no denying that the abuse he inflicted on you influenced your behavior.

 

I also don't think it's very productive to continue feeling hatred and contempt for yourself and calling yourself a disgusting worthless piece of shit. So I would start looking for a way to make up for what you did.

 

Obviously you can't make it up to that particular cat. But there are many things you can do to improve the lives of other animals. I'd say that if you go vegetarian for a year you'll be pretty much back on track with the rest of the people. If you keep it up longer you can even become more considerate of animals than the average person.

 

Apart from that, therapy is probably a good idea, to process the abuse your father inflicted on you.

 

When I was 14 or 15 I smoked weed for the first time and in response my parents tricked me into going to a mental hospital where my urine and blood was tested, I was interrogated by people who clearly looked down on me, mug shot taken, and shuffled off to my barred window room with the locked door, and brick mattress where I was stored for two weeks everyday the same, a brief 5 minute evaluation with a man in a white lab coat and a doctor title, food, group therapy which I never participated, and a 10 minute a day optional phone call at 8pm to the people who betrayed my trust by lying to me to put me there. 

 

I bring that up because Ive always been resentful towards therapy because my first experience was sorta involuntary and rapey. You're probably right that I need therapy though, my primary method of self knowledge is listening to these fdr podcasts and heeding the lessons other people learn. Although I'm starting to feel like a man with a bullet wound telling doctors I'll fix it myself with a spoon, some alcohol, and a lot of gauze. 

 

Thank you for acknowledging the causality of my actions and my childhood. It wasn't obvious to me, I needed a big portrait painted to realize that I found for the first time in The Antidote to Cruelty.      

Edit: I see that while I was typing a lot of stuff, Tyler summed up things pretty well... Only read if interested in my dual theory of shame.

 

Wow, Brazilda, how brave of you to face up to what you did so many years ago. I appreciate that you put a warning at the top of your post; when I'm forewarned of bad stuff coming, I'm able dial back my empathy and not be affected so much by what I'm reading - thank you.

 

Regarding what you might gain from posting this, my take would be this: You probably were very young when you did this and you also had had very, very bad behavior modelled to you. I'm very sorry for the terrible thing your father did to you and I can guess the rest of your childhood, at least around your father, was probably quite bad as well. His actions that day towards you were truly abhorrent.

 

But you posted about your actions towards the cat, and I'm guessing that nothing I just said is much of a surprise to you. Back then you were a child, of limited moral responsibility, but when you think of your actions now, you being much older, what happens for you when you think of this?

 

I'm not sure what you gain by posting this. To give you an analogy, I remember doing something I was (and still am) ashamed of and how I have processed it so far. I grew up in socialist eastern Germany and one day there was a meeting one teacher arranged with four of us 16 year-olds, to pressure us into pledging ourselves into the army for a longer than the compulsory term. None of us wanted to do that, only I was safe from danger, because I have a medical condition that precluded me from military service. The teacher kept putting pressure on the other guys, they defended themselves and I got very uncomfortable. I don't know what cues triggered me to open my goddam mouth, but I heard myself say to one of them something like: 'Oh, but don't you believe in the neccessity of defending our country?' Luckily they kept to their stances in spite of my back-stabbing. I'm ashamed of that action. But what came of that feeling? I was ashamed of myself for many years, and I think that's how it should be, even though I had been inculcated with doctrine and with a fear whenever I didn't please people in authority, yadda yadda. I carried the shame of this action unaltered for 20 years, because there was no way for me to make restitution, just like in your case. The shame did lessen not before I learned a great deal more about myself. A few years ago I spent some time going over this and other shameful memories. At first, I didn't want to really fully go into the feeling of my shame and I skirted around it, as if only fleetingly touching a hot stove. But when I finally let myself fully experience the feeling, it subsided to a small ember. And I think this is because I know of myself that I have changed a lot. That I am much less prone to do shameful things to avoid discomfort in conversation, and actually had in the meantime done some brave things in confrontations.

 

My theory, if you want to hear it, is this: There is a kind of shame that you feel completely within yourself. It has nothing to do with other people knowing about what you did. It comes from you having acted against your values, and it is there to help you learn from your experience. I make a habit of revisiting shameful memories now, to find out what they are telling me. When the lesson is learned, the shame might grow less, but a small reminder remains to make sure I remember always. On my path to living my values I welcome that.

 

There exists a different kind of shame, and this kind has to do with other people witnessing your actions. It is frequently used to ensure social conformity. "Uh, you're not like the others, shame on you!" I try to grow indifferent to this manipulative abuse of the feeling of shame. I think healthy shame is a very private feeling.

 

Long story short: I'm a little suspicious of airing one's self-contempt in public, especially since you simultaneously supplied some backstory that could be seen as indemnifying you. Indeed, what are you trying to gain here? Are you trying to provoke in yourself the second kind of shame? I'm alarmed that you feel hatred towards yourself. I don't know when hatred towards oneself would ever be justified. Whatever you have done, you need to deal with it and learn from it. In my mind, self-hatred is just self-attack, likely programmed into you by people like your father. Maybe you can work towards losing the self-hatred as a first step, before revisiting what might be useful private shame over you drowning the cat?

 

Of course I might be completely wrong. I'd very much like to know what the others think. And I'd like to know what you think, Brazilda? Did I bring some clarity to your feelings or did I muddle things up? I very much admire you exploring your relationship with cruelty!

When I think about what I did I mostly feel sorrow for the animal, and disappointment in myself for making those choices. I feel anger towards my father for the daddy issues I've inherited. I shouldn't have to seek out kind hearted people like yourselves to spill my guts to because I was so carelessly raised but here I am at 1 am writing to you as openly as I know how.  

 

All I hoped to gain from posting this is discussion, I don't have many people to talk to and all of the insights I find here at FDR are so incredibly valuable. My first reaction to your analogy was laughter because to me it seems crystal clear not to do what you did and at the same time I know it must seem quite obvious for you and anyone else not to do what I did, I guess thats what happens when you see your life through someone else's eyes. 

 

I think my shame is sincere. After all no one would have known what I did if I didn't tell them, someone only wanting to be accepted by the herd wouldve just remained silent. I am my own best judge, jury, and executioner. 

 

Now that you mention it I think my self attack is almost entirely programmed by my father. I can even think back to a time when he called me a worthless piece of shit drug addict, probably why I chose those words in particular. 

I think you're on the right track in general, I'm not suspicious of him airing it here though, I find this forum to be an incredibly safe place to talk about things that pretty nobody else in my life knows about.

Back to Brazilda, I think Janne is on the right track, and that your self shame or hatred is something to learn from, but also look at your self hatred like this; who would you rather have punch you in the face? Me? or yourself? Your self hatred and shaming (i'm totally the blind leading the blind here so stick with me im new at this) is basically punishing yourself as hard as you can to absolve you of the outside shame and hatred. I think i did a horrible job with that example but I just actually had a similar discussion with my therapist Monday night. i had told him about a situation from my mid 20s where I expected my parents to kill me, they were generally not super when I grew up, so I truly expected a Full Metal Jacket level verbal beatdown if not actual death. I didn't get it from them, so I spent 6 months torturing myself. Not eating, no socializing, I made my house a prison for 6 months and if I accidentally found myself having fun I cut it off instantly.

I think now that I punished the hell out of myself because I knew I wouldn't hurt me as bad as they COULD hurt me. Not sure if that might resonate or not, but feel free to message me or something if you need someone to talk to.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head here. When Brad Pitt told me to go vegan I sorta rolled my eyes, I think that's proof that your theory must be correct. If someone else decided my punishment I could be in jail or going vegan, two things I'm not prepared to do. I've found your response the most helpful yet. I think Ive heard Stefan talk about this exact theory before but I'm not 100% sure because I discovered FDR a few months ago and I've spent nearly every waking moment since absorbing new information.

 

I know what its like to fear a parent will kill you, I was feared for my life a few month ago over a stupid innocent joke I thought I could say to my father, which he quickly turned into an excuse to try to kick me out when it was damn cold, I refused and he started to approach me in a hostile manner. I really dont know what wouldve gone down had my mom not happened to have been there to intervene. In the past hes charged me aggressively and the one time I fought back he called the police and they came and I remember one cop telling me how lucky I am that i am a few months away from being 16 because he wanted me to be charged with assault. 

[charlesp]

I'm glad it helped but I'm a little confused. Brad Pitt is your father? Where does he fit in?

You're right what I said is something Stefan has referenced at least once on the call in show, probably many many times. I'm glad what I said helped you and I'll do what I can to help more, but don't fear therapy. My first session was Monday and I felt a lot better after. I'm going weekly for the foreseeable future. Voluntary of course.

[Brazilda]

I'm glad it helped but I'm a little confused. Brad Pitt is your father? Where does he fit in?You're right what I said is something Stefan has referenced at least once on the call in show, probably many many times. I'm glad what I said helped you and I'll do what I can to help more, but don't fear therapy. My first session was Monday and I felt a lot better after. I'm going weekly for the foreseeable future. Voluntary of course.

Haha I was referring to a comment made by the first poster, Tyler Durden, with the picture of Brad Pitt. Good for you, I'm glad what you're doing is working.