Guilty for feeling guilty

[hannahbanana]

I've been working on knowing myself better and improving myself/understanding false feelings for a while, and I feel like it's been going really well...but there's something that I've been having trouble understanding, and it's the way I self-impose judgement and guilt.

Right now, I'm currently trying to be more assertive about my preferences, which has been reducing the way I judge and guilt myself a little bit, but it still hinders me a lot sometimes, even for small things.

For instance, if I say something "too assertive" in person or on the internet, I will start fixating on it, get anxious that I said something "wrong" and only feel better if I either edit what I said, take back what I said, or add a qualifying statement.

It's a dilemma, because sometimes I am not sure if this is my real self showing I was being insensitive or unempathetic, or if it's my false self trying to censor me or make me less assertive.

Does anyone share in this or have any advice as to how I could continue?

[bootoo]

What is a false self? what are false feelings?

[dsayers]

We can easily and accidentally perpetuate abuse of the past even with the words that we use to frame our approach. For example, what is meant by too assertive? Until you can answer that, there's no way of knowing if it's even problematic, let alone how to proceed. To me, being assertive is simply accepting that we are generally equals. I cannot fathom how somebody could be "too equal" to another. It sounds like something an abuser would say to encourage you to erase yourself for their convenience. While using language to program you to abuse yourself in the future. It's really quite sinister.

 

So I reject your premise that you are guilting yourself. I would say that the way to proceed is to identify who is actually doing the guilting of you. Processing that would entail being honest about what it all actually means and getting angry that somebody you trusted or was even dependent upon would manipulate you like that. Imagine aggressively removing somebody from life by likening their presence to a fault. It's outrageous.

 

This is so widespread that there are people out there that will claim that something offends them just for the sake of manipulating others. With people you are intimate with and care about, there can be a fine line between being empathetic towards them and erasing yourself for their benefit. With strangers though, there is no reason why they would be so emotionally involved in you stating something factual that they could actually get offended. To make such a claim, they're revealing their own unprocessed trauma.

[MMX2010]

With strangers though, there is no reason why they would be so emotionally involved in you stating something factual that they could actually get offended. To make such a claim, they're revealing their own unprocessed trauma.

 

Your entire post is awesome, but I wanted to highlight this part to suggest that Hannah is so emotionally involved with strangers that she is anxious over what she tells them even before they've indicated any offense. 

 

(Hannah, if you think this statement is wrong, tell me and I'll edit it out.)

[Bouncelot]

Agree with the above posts. more info would be useful as well. preferably a specific example.

 

If I am understanding what you are saying, then from what I have seen and heard, it is usually caused by someone in our past (often parents) who punished us for expressing our needs or thoughts. This creates a hyper sensitivity, this feeling that someone will get angry if you say what is on your mind.

[PGP]

I've been working on knowing myself better and improving myself/understanding false feelings for a while, and I feel like it's been going really well...but there's something that I've been having trouble understanding, and it's the way I self-impose judgement and guilt.

Right now, I'm currently trying to be more assertive about my preferences, which has been reducing the way I judge and guilt myself a little bit, but it still hinders me a lot sometimes, even for small things.

For instance, if I say something "too assertive" in person or on the internet, I will start fixating on it, get anxious that I said something "wrong" and only feel better if I either edit what I said, take back what I said, or add a qualifying statement.

It's a dilemma, because sometimes I am not sure if this is my real self showing I was being insensitive or unempathetic, or if it's my false self trying to censor me or make me less assertive.

Does anyone share in this or have any advice as to how I could continue?

I find it difficult to parse out the issues here, so I will ask a few questions.

When you say"false feelings" and "false self", I am not sure what this means. Is it the personality that you display in interactions based upon what you think others expect?

Self-judgement or moderation of actions would seem healthy enough to me. Is the "self-imposed judgement" and guilt because you are not behaving in concert with your "false-self" or because you think that your real self is unreasonable in being assertive and expressing preference? Is it a fear that if you show your "real-self" via your preferences and you get push-back that you will feel rejected or criticised? Whereas if you fulfill the role of your "false-self" in interactions, push-back will not actually be against you, but your false-self?

Also, how do you deal with conflict or differences of opinion/preference in general? 

[cynicist]

Edit: 

[hannahbanana]

Hi guys. I looks like there's a lot of confusion with my post (now that I read it over again, I can see why) so let me try to re-explain...

When I say "false self" and "false feelings," I mean feelings that I experience based on preferences of others that have been internalized. Kind of like the inner mom or dad or whoever that tells you what they would want you to do, rather than what YOU would do. Does that make sense?

 

So what I think I've been feeling for a while is a sense of guilt that is not my own. When I do something that I feel this sort of guilt about, I logically know that I have nothing to feel guilty about based on my own values, yet I feel it anyway.

 

Most of the time I feel this guilt when I assert my own preferences or ideas, especially when they differ from what someone else may think, or if they may have the chance of making someone angry or upset. I feel guilty because I've disagreed with someone, and I convince myself that I have upset them in some way.

I know that this feeling of guilt does not come logically (like if I said something hurtful or belittled a person's ideas), and so that's why I call it false, and not from the "real me."

 

I feel like in order for me to understand this feeling, and maybe to alleviate it a bit, I need to be able to empathize with the part of me (probably from my childhood, I've had this feeling for as long as I can remember) that became this way, but I'm having difficulties with doing this. Sometimes I feel like I don't know where to begin with it.

 

I really hope this post makes more sense than the first

 

Your entire post really hits the spot on what I was trying to say (good for you for understanding it so well, haha ) I know this feeling of guilt was not started by me (like I said above), and I'm not sure if it was started by a specific person or not. I have a suspicion that a lot of it has to do with my school...I was in a Catholic school all 12 years, and I think elementary school especially instilled that good old Catholic guilt.

 

 

Hannah is so emotionally involved with strangers that she is anxious over what she tells them even before they've indicated any offense. 

 

(Hannah, if you think this statement is wrong, tell me and I'll edit it out.)

You're right about the anxiety before any indication of a reason to feel so. I convince myself that I've upset them, even if there is not reason to believe that, and it often makes me come off as over apologetic. It makes me afraid of asserting my own ideas, for fear of upsetting people. Could you elaborate on what "emotionally involved with strangers" means? And is that a good, or a bad thing?

 

Also, how do you deal with conflict or differences of opinion/preference in general? 

I think I explained most of your other questions in the above post (if not, let me know), but not this one...

When I'm with people that I trust and I know will listen to logical arguments, I'm very comfortable with having a logical discussion and expressing my feelings...it's when I'm with people I have known to NOT do that, or with people that I am unsure about that I get anxious. I actually just mostly avoid confrontation with them, because I usually get frustrated, and when I get frustrated I start crying - which makes me feel like my argument is invalidated or taken less seriously, since people would say that I'm letting emotion cloud my judgement.

I have been trying to express my opinions more, especially around my family, and it's improving these problems, but I still feel this anxiety if I want to address an issue that is very important to me with people I am not comfortable around.

[Kevin Beal]

Hi guys. I looks like there's a lot of confusion with my post (now that I read it over again, I can see why) so let me try to re-explain...

When I say "false self" and "false feelings," I mean feelings that I experience based on preferences of others that have been internalized. Kind of like the inner mom or dad or whoever that tells you what they would want you to do, rather than what YOU would do. Does that make sense?

 

So what I think I've been feeling for a while is a sense of guilt that is not my own. When I do something that I feel this sort of guilt about, I logically know that I have nothing to feel guilty about based on my own values, yet I feel it anyway.

 

Most of the time I feel this guilt when I assert my own preferences or ideas, especially when they differ from what someone else may think, or if they may have the chance of making someone angry or upset. I feel guilty because I've disagreed with someone, and I convince myself that I have upset them in some way.

I know that this feeling of guilt does not come logically (like if I said something hurtful or belittled a person's ideas), and so that's why I call it false, and not from the "real me."

 

I feel like in order for me to understand this feeling, and maybe to alleviate it a bit, I need to be able to empathize with the part of me (probably from my childhood, I've had this feeling for as long as I can remember) that became this way, but I'm having difficulties with doing this. Sometimes I feel like I don't know where to begin with it.

Hi Hanna!

 

I think what you are saying makes a ton of sense, and I can relate.

 

I am confident that your hunch is entirely correct, that is to say that the guilt is not your own and for the reason you stated (you're acting consistently with your values). And also that you've internalized someone from your past, provoking these thoughts in you.

 

And as a general rule, I think that when it doesn't collide with your values, that is a very good sign that something is up.

 

What this sounds like to me is what I'm calling preemptive self attack.

 

This is something we learn when we are repeatedly humiliated. People would rather risk dying in a war than be humiliated. Humiliation is so incredibly costly to our psyche, because it's meant to dehumanize people, and people who are not people, well, it's not a big deal to ostracize them or attack them.

 

So, we develop inner critics which protect us from potentially re-experiencing humiliation. It senses the potential for humiliation and then activates the kind of response you've experienced before in these situations. That way you don't end up doing the thing that would get you humiliated.

 

And by "humiliation" I mean it as a more general term to do with bullying, contemptuous treatment, passive aggression, etc.

 

And it may not even be humiliation, but whatever it is, it's bad enough to permanently mess up your healthy emotional defenses, your judgment and your self efficacy.

 

I think also that your hunch that a way of resolving it is by empathizing with it is wise.

 

This is what I have done with some success: I externalize it. I get that part of me onto paper, or I literally engage it in conversation, anything to un-blend with that part which seems to feel like you, rather than a part you've internalized. You can be a hell of a lot more objective about your guilt this way, practically seeing it as if it's another person feeling it.

 

And if you don't externalize this part, instead of being able to learn from the part, you are more likely to go into anxiety management mode and look for relief, effectively suppressing it, and then when it comes up again, you're like "oh crap, I forgot about that...".

 

And it may be the case that this part is doing an invaluable service, but it's hard to know without un-blending with it (externalizing), first.

 

I often record these conversations with different parts of myself with a voice recorder. I'm assuming you haven't done this kind of inner work before, so, I would highly suggest treating any new feeling that comes up as if it's a new personality that you cohabitate with, and that you can engage in conversation.

 

Here's what a typical example looks like:

 

Me (M): "Does anybody want to talk?"

 

[pause]

 

[a feeling arises]

 

Part (P1): "yea, I'm feeling guilty"

 

M: "what are you feeling guilty about?"

 

[pause]

 

P1: "I'm feeling guilty that I am going to be a jerk telling Bob how I think he's totally freaking bass ackwards about his statement about child raising"

 

[i already have context for what this part would like to say, so I skip that]

 

M: "Why would that make you a jerk? What would you have to feel guilty about, I don't understand"

 

[the part might stumble, not knowing how to respond]

 

Another Part (P2): "I'm feeling irritated"

 

M: "interesting, irritated about what?"

 

P2: "well, why the hell should you feel guilty about that. Bob is the asshole! He thinks hitting kids is fine!"

 

M: "Yea, that's interesting. Considering that it doesn't make sense to me that I should be focusing on me in that exchange as the jerk. What do you think about that?"

 

[by "you" I'm referring to the first part]

 

P1: "I'm feeling a little relieved, to be honest, but the feeling of guilt is still there"

 

M: "Really? Are you still convinced that you would be a jerk? Or is it something else?"

 

[pause]

 

P1: "Well, I just think that I shouldn't be telling anyone how to think if I've still got a lot to learn myself, like that makes me pretentious or something"

 

P2: "As compared to what, though!?"

 

 

And it would continue like that continuing to get some distance from that part, and have a more honest evaluation of the circumstances.

 

It's kind of funny how very literally this is how I talk to myself...

 

If this is of interest to you, I'd be more than happy to answer any questions.

 

I think you are definitely on the right track and if I could sum up my advice in a single sentence: try and externalize the internalized part so you can be more objective about it, good or bad.

 

And props for making the progress you have with it already!

 

Is this helpful at all?

[hannahbanana]

 

Hi Kevin, thanks for the response...your advice sounds like it might really help to get around the road blocks I've been having. I never thought about approaching it like that before

I've done something similar, but where I'm talking to a real person about how I feel, but I think that having that inner dialogue would help me personally connect better.

 

I also think the humiliation part connects with me as well...it brought up some memories from when I was little and that sort of situation happened to me. It's pretty wild to realize that something from 15+ years in the past can still have such an influence over you.

So maybe instead of this feeling coming from someone else telling me to be less aggressive, it's really me from a long time ago trying to protect me from bad repercussions. I hadn't really thought so much about that possibility, but now it's definitely worth examining for me.

Thank you so much

[MMX2010]

 

You're right about the anxiety before any indication of a reason to feel so. I convince myself that I've upset them, even if there is not reason to believe that, and it often makes me come off as over apologetic. It makes me afraid of asserting my own ideas, for fear of upsetting people. Could you elaborate on what "emotionally involved with strangers" means? And is that a good, or a bad thing?

 

Normally, I would answer.  But I think dsayers and Kevin Beal did such a good job of both explaining your situation and providing you with actionable advice that I'll keep silent for now.   

[Kevin Beal]

If any anyone is interested in a good listener convo about internalized parts and inner critics:

 

Flourishing Through Self Attack - A Mecosystem Listener Conversation

http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1815_flourishing_through_self_attack_a_mecosystem_convo.mp3