Prove it.

[byebye1212]

I'm not saying be cynical. I'm not saying be suspicious. But I suggest that you, at minimum, be skeptical of everyone.

Not just people in your family. Not just libertarians and anarchists. Even people in this conversation. Even people who organize FDR meetups...

 

Prove your virtue to me. Prove that you share philosophy with those ignorant of it. Prove that you've dealt with your trauma in therapy, that you've done fearless self-work and treated your addictions. Prove that you're doing something important with your life, or at least that you've ended the cycle of abuse. Prove that you can hear criticism from wise people without getting defensive. Prove that you're willing to piss off evildoers!

 

And ask me to prove it, I'd be happy to

 

Jeff

[Slavik]

Are we looking for perfection?  Why?  Many things you have mentioned, I can clearly say that I am in the process of dealing with, have quiet a few faults that I am working on.  Looking at your post I guess person like me would never be welcome.  So why look for perfection instead of people who are working on themselves. 

[Kevin Beal]

Are we looking for perfection?  Why?

I don't see how you interpreted his statements in that way.

 

People can talk a good game. Very few people actually take the kind of virtuous action prescribed by this show, a show primarily about ethics and virtue.

 

Just because you listen to this show or post on the boards is absolutely no guarantee that you are the kind of person this show is designed to empower, or that you've processed your history to any meaningful degree, or that you a good friend, lover, or ally.

 

Some people are all talk. They don't demonstrate that they've taken the medicine that they prescribe. Some will even be defensive and aggressive when asked to do that, when that is a perfectly reasonable request.

 

It has nothing to do with perfection. Virtue is not about perfection, in the same way that having made genuine mistakes doesn't make you bad. It's how you chose to respond to the truth and act on it. If you are honest and act in ways which are courageous in response to life's challenges, that's virtuous. Talking about virtue in the abstract is, ... I don't know exactly what that is. But it's not virtue, that's for sure.

 

It's important to have high standards for yourself and others.

 

I don't think Jeff is asking for the moon here.

[NigelW]

I can't think of anything productive to add, but I like this thread. I like it a lot.

[Slavik]

I don't see how you interpreted his statements in that way.

 

People can talk a good game. Very few people actually take the kind of virtuous action prescribed by this show, a show primarily about ethics and virtue.

 

Just because you listen to this show or post on the boards is absolutely no guarantee that you are the kind of person this show is designed to empower, or that you've processed your history to any meaningful degree, or that you a good friend, lover, or ally.

 

Some people are all talk. They don't demonstrate that they've taken the medicine that they prescribe. Some will even be defensive and aggressive when asked to do that, when that is a perfectly reasonable request.

 

It has nothing to do with perfection. Virtue is not about perfection, in the same way that having made genuine mistakes doesn't make you bad. It's how you chose to respond to the truth and act on it. If you are honest and act in ways which are courageous in response to life's challenges, that's virtuous. Talking about virtue in the abstract is, ... I don't know exactly what that is. But it's not virtue, that's for sure.

 

It's important to have high standards for yourself and others.

 

I don't think Jeff is asking for the moon here.

"Prove that you've dealt with your trauma in therapy, that you've done fearless self-work and treated your addictions. Prove that you're doing something important with your life, or at least that you've ended the cycle of abuse." Mainly this part, being "dealt with trauma"  I am personally dealing with mine and I honestly think it will never be dealt with, it will be my life long process.  All the work that many people are doing is ongoing, and will be ongoing for a very long time, I am not ready to discount such people.  I might be wrong, but just my opinion.  "Prove that i am doing something important with my life"  Considering that I am at the very beginning of self work and recovery, the first mile of my journey, I do not yet have the capacity to do something important, I am planning to, just not yet.  So looking over these particular statements, I can see myself being discounted as I dont fit, I dont want to discount people who are work in progress, and I hope not to be discounted out of hand by others as well.  Granted I might have misunderstood, I am open to clarifications of course.

[DFPercush]

What's important is not where you are, but the direction you're going.

 

"It's how you chose to respond to the truth and act on it." -Kevin

I agree, but with a caveat. I think if someone presents something that's technically true, in a mean spirited or abusive way, you're not obligated to listen to them. But if you can extract the message of truth from their bitter vitriol without self attacking, then you get props for that. That also means we have a responsibility to present the truth with empathy and compassion, but still have firm resolve against the excuses and sophisms of a sick culture.

[Pepin]

I am a bit confused by this post. If someone told me to prove that I was virtuous in person, or some other variant, I don't think I would continue that conversation. Beside the question being rather strange, it would be hard not to perceive it as "prove you aren't a douche".

 

I am not saying that integrity is not important or that we ought not to evaluate how virtuous a person is, but putting it into this context is a little weird.

[PGP]

I can't, but at least now I know it is possible and that others are at different stages of achieving it and just how hard it is.

Excellent question IMO. The self-reflecting question of integrity is paramount. At this stage it allows me to see what I am not. Then question why. 

 

There's a Tiesto track that is called or has in it a line: "Just be". Like in Stefans interactions, people will often come with one question but bring the real issue in how they "are" in the call. I suppose, if you know someone and you ask if they have integrity, it will be self-evident in what they "are" in totality rather than with justifications or rationalisations. Kinda like "you'll know it when you see it". 

[Kevin Beal]

"It's how you chose to respond to the truth and act on it." -Kevin

I agree, but with a caveat. I think if someone presents something that's technically true, in a mean spirited or abusive way, you're not obligated to listen to them.

I'm not sure that you're obligated to listening to anyone, except maybe your spouse and children (chosen family).

 

If you're saying that if someone is telling the truth, but are a dick about it, you aren't obligated to accepting or acting on the truth of their statement, then I strongly disagree. You aren't obligated to conceding the point to them or continuing the conversation, but if you aren't obligated to the truth, then you have to give up UPB, since it requires a preference for truth over falsehood, and so you can't say that the other person being a dick was doing anything wrong.

 

 

I am a bit confused by this post. If someone told me to prove that I was virtuous in person, or some other variant, I don't think I would continue that conversation. Beside the question being rather strange, it would be hard not to perceive it as "prove you aren't a douche".I am not saying that integrity is not important or that we ought not to evaluate how virtuous a person is, but putting it into this context is a little weird.

I don't know Jeff's intentions, but the way I took it was in the same way I often hear it in my own head from a part inside me. This happens often in response to people doing self knowledge wrong. Like, putting something in the freezer to heat it up, kind of wrong. Professing a desire to go north but then going south kind of wrong.

 

I feel irritated by people who I perceive as posers when it comes to self knowledge, and in order to have credibility with myself (and thus consequently with others) a part of me bubbles up from my unconscious challenging me to prove that I'm not projecting, or as bad as them that way, or that I am actually doing something to that end, rather than being some embittered contrarian curmudgeon on the internet criticizing other people when I don't have my own house in order.

 

I don't know, right? But I'm guessing that Jeff meant that people ought to prove it to themselves, not prove it to him.

[Shane]

@slavik: I appreciate your humility. Stay strong in the fight. Everyone has work to do. We all fall short, especially of own expectations and ideals. There is no need to defend your condition. The more we learn, the more work we see needs done. The truth of our limitations and the consequences of our behavior are the guard rails that keep us real. The only way we get to where we need to be is by pressing on. Just remember where you came from and don't go back.    

 

I appreciate this conversation because it proves that we are changing the world. There are thousands of men and women growing in knowledge of truth, and courage to speak it. 

[Pepin]

I don't know, right? But I'm guessing that Jeff meant that people ought to prove it to themselves, not prove it to him.

Thanks for the post. You are likely right about the intention.

[AynRand]

Very thought provoking. I like this post.

[Matt D]

If you're asking someone to prove their virtue, don't you already know the answer? The beauty of virtue is that everyone sees it whether they acknowledge it or not.

 

My opinion is that you don't have to ask a virtuous person to prove it because it will be obvious from outer space.