Snafui Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 From the article: Now it just so happens that within the past decade or so the United States has, in effect, run two experiments — one in Iraq, the other in Libya — to test whether the theory of spontaneous order works out as the libertarian tradition would predict. Wow, this is epic level research, Mr. Linker! Stef, I have a challenge should you choose to refute this propaganda, could you keep it under an hour on this?
MagnumPI Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 The big bang theory! Playing to the Gen Y-ers. Smart move, government. Blow shit up, and watch life flourish, right?
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 This article is just depressing. It fills me with a sense of hopelessness. We face a wall of belligerent stupidity. 2
powder Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 wow, wish I hadn't wasted those 4 minutes reading that. I think that would be an important critique for Stef address, it really is one of the last line of defense arguments left for the intellectual statists.
dsayers Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 I stopped reading at libertarian idea of "spontaneous order." The author spends no time defining terms, meaning he doesn't understand that in order to be taken seriously, one needs to define terms. Neither libertarian nor spontaneous order were defined. Spontaneous order is not a libertarian idea any more than "gravity attracts mass" is. Spontaneous order is an observation of the real world populated by creatures of free will, just as "gravity attracts mass" is an observation of the real world. He not only didn't define spontaneous order, but he didn't even understand the fundamental nature of it. If a human wants a pencil in a vacuum, they would need to keep themselves fed, sheltered, and healthy while they fashioned tools, gathered raw materials, developed machines to process the materials, etc. It would take an individual years. If more than one person wants a pencil, they can work together and diversify. Who processes food, medicine, tools, etc can be split up so that each person that wants a pencil is providing value to others in exchange for others providing value to them. Otherwise known as division of labor. Division of labor is important to understand because it demonstrates why peaceful interaction and things like spontaneous order are THE DEFAULT: It's integral to one's survival! I emphasize THE DEFAULT because so many people talking about these things always treat peaceful interaction as if it's something we'd have to make an effort towards. It's also the reason why even if government programs actually did serve human desire, it would harm human survival by subsidizing the need to co-operate with others for personal survival/gain. 3
NumberSix Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 How does a puppet regime in Iraq prove the failure of spontaneous order? 1
Skeptical Empiricist Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 "Order doesn't just happen, and it isn't the product of individual freedom. It needs to be established, and it needs to be established first (sometimes by force), before individuals can be granted civic, economic, and social freedom." Damon Linker I pulled the above from the author's conclusion. Damon and his central planners know what's best for us - which is kinda weird, as the author doesn't appear to understand "spontaneous order (aka,catallaxy.)" I wasted my time on this article. It's only use is as a whetstone to sharpen a beginner's logic. And though I am an unskilled beginner in reason, there is nothing compelling here. Unless Stefan attacked...which would be entertaining. And too easy.
Xbander Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 It's a perfect example of a strawman argument. There it is, right there, in the bushes! Quick, someone take a picture.
andkon Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 Things to thank government for: The Federal Reserve's regulation of the money supply? {(>_<)} Then he mentions fire fighters and police. It's magical genie theory: only government (forcing people to pay for X) can provide X!
dsayers Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 It's magical genie theory: only government (forcing people to pay for X) can provide X! Yep. There's only one thing you can accomplish with violence that you cannot accomplish without violence: violence. 1
regevdl Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 I will go against my usual behavior as I normally read an article in its entirety before making critical arguments but this already calls for a critical argument in the subtitle "It's called spontaneous order". Tell me and show me WHERE anyone of the libertarian movement or the anarcho or minarcho 'movement' has EVER suggested spontaneous order. Show me this citation from ANY credible or hell....horribly credible 'libertarian' source and I will read the rest of the article. deal?
nathanm Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 If someone cannot provide me a very specific, detailed and codified description of how spontaneous order must work then I'm just going to go back to being chaotic and disordered as usual. When will spontaneous order be enacted? I need times, dates and places so I can prepare! You can't just have spontaneous order without everyone having a current copy of the rules fer cripes sakes! Who is going to be in charge of this spontaneous order? How long is the term? What kind of voting system will be used to elect the Spontaneous King? How many cabinet members can the Spontaneous King have and how will their duties be delegated? If a rigid system of spontaneous order cannot be defined and agreed upon beforehand I see no benefit it pursing it at all. 3
Kevin Beal Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 I've been suggesting we bomb the public school system for years
Adam_Min_Hayeshuv Posted October 12, 2014 Posted October 12, 2014 From the article: Wow, this is epic level research, Mr. Linker! Stef, I have a challenge should you choose to refute this propaganda, could you keep it under an hour on this? SHORT ANSWER: When you pour fuel to the fires you get combustion. In the analogy above foreign intervention was the fuel provided in the form of weapons, training & funding. LONG ANSWER: The horrible current state of affairs couldn't have happened without westren intervention which piled huge stock of weapons in Libiya & Iraq and even trained & equipped Syrian radicals in Jordan which had naturally found their ways into the hands of extremist. Another important interventioning forces are the oil rich arab states (Sauidi Arabia & Kuwait) and Iran which have trained & funded certain factions especially in Syria.
Coinflip Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Well then, that's enough sophistry for one day. 1
QueechoFeecho Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 Many strawmen hunting libertarian phantoms can be speared with praxeology. Asking for definitions is an even simpler route. 1
Josh F Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 blaming and misconstruing libertarians and talking about spanking makes for excellent click baiting. bomb in the brain is a gawker promotional strategy.
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