William Wyatt Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Josh F, on 24 Sept 2014 - 12:17 AM, said: Ethical Chameleon, exactly. I find his show's quality entirely depends on his guest. When he has a real scientist on, its fantastically scientific and interesting and he asks great questions. When he has a DMT loving pseudo-scientist on the show talking about psychic dogs and magic mushrooms, he sounds like a complete fool incapable of science. I replied to the above statement. It is said that since DMT is a very simple chemical compound found in most organic life, that the geometric structures one witnesses under these experiences are a mathematical foundation for the structure of the universe, or even just organic life. That fractal patterns formed from the Fibonacci sequence, mandala's and such are a form of spontaneous order than resonate within the human mind. And that following these natural patterns through art, music, dance can have therapeutic benefits to the mind. I believe that maybe mixing this somewhat Yungian, Tool (rock band) inspired ritualistic stuff with the Internal Family Systems Therapy could have great benefits in my life. Do you think that all pseudo scientific theories are nonsense? Even the ones that science seems to support? Are all ritualistic activities claptrap, even when approached by an atheist who is just seeing what works with the human mind? isn't any intuitive activity which leads to a progression a form of ritual, or does such a definition hold too much religious weight to be taken seriously?Another theory is that of cymatics, that certain audio frequencies resonate throughout the human body and playing at certain pitches can have different physiological and psychological effects. Bass rattles the chest, Treble chimes in the mind. Care to share your own theories or help clear this up for me? keep in mind that I'm a 20 year old layman with limited knowledge in philosophy, I'm not making any solid arguments, so please don't try and dissect everything I say for a flaw hat you can nitpick. I'm seeking advice here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan H. Hoffner Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Hello William, I'm no expert, but I think you're on the right path in your thinking. I think natural, mind expanding substances can definitely be used for good by wise people, and if used for the right reasons. I don't see how natural substances that help one get more connected to their subconscious mind, instincts, and emotions (if done in a natural, safe, gentle way) can be inherently bad (probably the opposite, ie inherently good, but can be used for bad). I say, why not use the tools that nature has provided in order to help ourselves along in our quest for enlightenment? I see the amazing beauty in it. I know I would still be a State-loving (kind of), self-destructive, blind, depressed fool without cannabis in my life. When I consciously started the attempt to treat my anxiety and depression with it is exactly when I started the waking-up process (it was like a switch was turned on in my mind), and here I am now on FDR (took about 4 years of discoveries to finally make it here). So, based on my own personal experience / empirical evidence, I can attest to the usefulness of certain "drugs" if used, again, wisely and for the right reasons. I've also tried mushrooms a couple of times, and can see the potential benefit if utilized in the right circumstances. The trick is knowing what the "right circumstances" are, so maybe seek out advise in that area. I can say from personal experience that if you do mushrooms with other people around, the relationships need to be authentic, connected ones, or anxiety can take over and ruin the experience (although you'll then realize just how bad the relationship(s) is, so that's a win if you do something about it). I would also give the general warning against it becoming a crutch, or a way to pacify any pain or discomfort one is going through which could prevent one from taking the necessary actions to actually live their lives/virtues. It's no substitute for therapy, and/or for living a virtuous life of courage and action. I'm still working on all of these things and trying to put it all together. I think I will do some further experiments in the future to go along with my therapy and other self-work. I know I still have much to learn about myself and my existence. Oh, and congrats on finding so much truth and wisdom at such an early age. I didn't wise up until I was in my 30's. Sadly, many costly mistakes were made. So, good luck! Cheers, Nathan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicist Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 You may have some entertaining experiences, which is perfectly fine, but the idea that you will gain knowledge or wisdom from a drug induced state seems rather silly. I enjoy the musical style of Tool myself but I can't help cringing at some of the mystical, eastern religious material that finds its way into their lyrics. What ritualistic stuff did you mean in particular? I'd agree that art, music, and dance can be both therapeutic and relaxing as well as great complements to the more rigorous practices of journaling or therapy though. I think natural, mind expanding substances can definitely be used for good by wise people, and if used for the right reasons. I don't see how natural substances that help one get more connected to their subconscious mind, instincts, and emotions (if done in a natural, safe, gentle way) can be inherently bad (probably the opposite, ie inherently good, but can be used for bad). I say, why not use the tools that nature has provided in order to help ourselves along in our quest for enlightenment? I see the amazing beauty in it. What are these natural, mind-expanding substances that you're talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueechoFeecho Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 You may have some entertaining experiences, which is perfectly fine, but the idea that you will gain knowledge or wisdom from a drug induced state seems rather silly. I enjoy the musical style of Tool myself but I can't help cringing at some of the mystical, eastern religious material that finds its way into their lyrics. What ritualistic stuff did you mean in particular? I'd agree that art, music, and dance can be both therapeutic and relaxing as well as great complements to the more rigorous practices of journaling or therapy though. What are these natural, mind-expanding substances that you're talking about? It's not a substance, but what about dreaming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.o.t.H. Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 People who have experimented with acid generally all claim the same type of expanded conciseness. I really think that without ever having experienced it, it is not able to understand. Personally I think the topic is fascinating, and there MIGHT be something to it. I am not suggesting people should try it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicist Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 It's not a substance, but what about dreaming? I consider dreams to be communication from ones unconscious mind, but even those are not direct feeding tubes of growth. You have to work hard to understand the meaning behind them in order to gain anything of value in terms of self-knowledge. The problem I have with drugs is the idea that they are some kind of automatic substitute, as if taking them opens up some shortcut to really know yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I've tried DMT and have seen geometric fractal shapes. I've tried most common psychedelics. I think that if science shows evidence for something said by mystical hippy dippy people, their conclusion may be correct, even if their methodology is messed up. I've heard a ton of explanations for what psychedelics do and are good for, and how they are supposed to bring important insights. I've taken a default position of dismissing these things since so many have turned out to be illogical and not supported by my own first hand experience. I've had the experience of that profound feeling of making a connection that is exciting and thinking to myself "oh my god, I've figured out a fundamental truth about the universe that no one else has yet discovered!" I started writing these realizations down to see if the sober me agreed, and no. They were consistently trivial or probably false. One example was on the exact respect in which everything in the universe is connected, in a geometric sense, picturing more than 3 dimensions as if it were 3 dimensions so that I could comprehend it. I don't remember the details, but the sober me was entirely unimpressed. I don't know that I can accept anyone's conclusions without them demonstrating that their methodology is sound. Stef wrote a great article about how conclusions without methodology are useless, here. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepin Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Intellectually there may be some use in terms of causing different modes of thinking and greater associative ability. Difficult to think clearly in such a state though. I think it is very possible, but not at all likely for great ideas to be generated. I think psychologically drugs can be beneficial. There is research on it, which provides evidence for that claim, though it depends on dose and other factors. Having smoked a lot of weed in the past, it really enhanced my thinking. A lot of it was just the relaxation it induced. Another factor was that very obvious ideas seemed more unfamiliar, allowing for greater understanding. I do think I am in the minority on this as what I would record high was almost always good, unless I was way too high. Most people aren't like this. On Dmt or LSD, I don't think my thoughts and ideas would be too great. I am prone to the experience of "this is what the universe is" as described in the first post, not that I would believe it. I get that sorry of stuff in meditation sometimes as well, like "everything is connected". It is more a feeling than anything, and I can understand how people are convinced by it. It is similar to how in dreams you are presented with something self evident, and there is no reason to believe that it is not what your dream is telling you. I imagine it is the same experience as those who claim to interact with god. I can see how it is difficult for people to disregard these experiences. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRobin Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Do you think that all pseudo scientific theories are nonsense? Even the ones that science seems to support? Are all ritualistic activities claptrap, even when approached by an atheist who is just seeing what works with the human mind? isn't any intuitive activity which leads to a progression a form of ritual, or does such a definition hold too much religious weight to be taken seriously? The difference between pseude science and science is that scientific theories can be falsified. And if a theory can't be proven to be false then by defintiion it can't be known to be true. One can have an inspiration that leads to a sceintific theory (the DNA double-helix comes to mind) of course, as well as just doing something "weird" cause of a gut feeling that you can later test to be either working or not (stuff like meditation or dancing or chating or that geometrical stuff you were talking about) regardless of whether or not you have a clear idea about why it is working (to a degree I would say psychology is also part of that category, cause you can't falsify subjective experiences, but you can test whether or not a certain experience has a certain outcome on behaviour or mood or well-being). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan H. Hoffner Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 You may have some entertaining experiences, which is perfectly fine, but the idea that you will gain knowledge or wisdom from a drug induced state seems rather silly. I enjoy the musical style of Tool myself but I can't help cringing at some of the mystical, eastern religious material that finds its way into their lyrics. What ritualistic stuff did you mean in particular? I'd agree that art, music, and dance can be both therapeutic and relaxing as well as great complements to the more rigorous practices of journaling or therapy though. What are these natural, mind-expanding substances that you're talking about? For me it was cannabis. It literally saved my life and got me here today. I was a depressed, blind, abusive (mainly to myself) alcoholic before. It woke me up and forced me to face my demons. My subconscious mind came to the surface when I would smoke and I would seek answers to all the questions that I began having. In short, I became aware of my inner-world and I became curious. Do you have experience being dead inside and using cannabis to come back to life? Well, I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. D. Stembal Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Pseudo-science persists in a great many areas, including medicine, pharmacology, and nutrition, but any current controlled substance is a valid compound for research. Supposedly, LSD is now being trialed as a therapy for alcoholism. http://www.bbc.com/news/health-17297714 Back when I was not sober, I had a freak out experience on 1mg of 2C-I NBOMe (a borderline crazy dosage) where I thought the world was ending and many of my repressed emotional issues began to surface, but the ultimate value of such an experience is entirely subjective. Self-knowledge is less harmful than self-medication, at least for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGMizen Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I have tried a lot of drugs. I used to believe a lot of crazy stuff. I have done DMT multiple times, had some very intense experiences where I was approached by what seemed to be the most complex, incomprehensible, insect/machine-like entities, whetever you imagine when I say that, they were 3000 times more intricate and complicated. They defy logic and imagination completely. Anyone who says they understand ANYTHING about the DMT space is a liar or an idiot. I doubt it has therapeutic benefits in fact you feel like its going to push you too far out of reality to ever come back sometimes.I have done mushrooms. very high doses. Ive had ecstatic experiences of complete and utter elation on them. I also did a high dose one month after my daughters funeral which was literally the most terrifying and shocking (to say the least) yet ultimately powerful and valuable experience of my life. It would take A LOT to convince me to relive that night.. but ultimately I am glad I did. I think mushrooms have therapeutic benefits. -If you have a strong constitution they arent so bad but Ive seen some pretty weak people go through mushroom trips like nuts through a nutcracker. Either way to me it seems they take your inner world and put it out in front of you, rather than taking the facts of the outer world and bringing them into you.. if that makes sense? I dont believe they are useful philosophically (or metaphysically) but I do believe they have value psychologically. Great for making poetry or music or art.. not so great for medicine, physics or engineering lol.. I think if you can go somewhere very safe and meditate through a trip or something, you might get some personal value out of them for sure. They help you to lighten up about reality too.As for cannabis I started when I was 12 and only stopped at 25.. Everyone has different experiences with it, some people find it hugely useful and some people (like me) find it swallows their life up and you have to fight to get it back.The way Ive come to see all of it, is that if you can learn from it, its valuable to you personally.. but Im not sure its valuable for everybody. I must say though, that as bad as some of my experiences with psychedelics and drugs have been, the worst thing about drugs, in my experience, is the possibility that in taking them you risk being kidnapped and imprisoned for doing so. -Thats always worried me.As for pseudoscience, the best question to ask when someone puts forward a PS idea, is 'what do they have to sell me' ? The majority of pseudoscience is based around selling you something. If their 'product' is some hippy potion that promises to cure everything wrong with you.. they are a scam artist. If their 'product' is an idea that evokes a sustainable sense of self love, genuine happiness and a feeling of purpose in the world.. and they dont charge you a penny for it.. You might just want to listen up.We cant know everything.. but we can know what we do and dont know. As long as you are being honest to yourself about what you know/dont know.. The rest is irrelevant. (ie. dont cling to pseudoscience that has been disproven by actual science just because it feels good)Hope that makes some sense? lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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