Triumph Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 This is a short and interesting debate between liberals on islam. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAob0bCWpv4 Affleck definitely comes across as a dick. lol
Archimedes Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 There was nice quote in the comment section. Hollywood actors are like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed shit. 1 1
PatrickC Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Ben's argument was a classic example of the 'argument from offence'. The left do this all the time. Which is why they feel perfectly entitled to shouting people down and using bull horns at peoples events they don't agree with. Many of them haven't even listened to the arguments (as Ben displayed). Often relying on just one or two sources that merely have to make a claim of infraction against their ideology, without much evidence. Did you notice the audience cheering Sam's statement at the beginning. Then after Ben makes his childish rant, receives a cheer from the audience himself. I'm guessing the audience is mostly liberal. But it's almost like they're certain statements you can make that are guaranteed a positive response. Even if those statements when shown together can contradict each other, when placed in their proper context. No wonder politicians can have a field day with this kind of audience. It's literally like taking candy from a baby. 1
J-William Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 I haven't seen the debate, but I've seen some twitter discussion around the show and it seems to me that Affleck made good points. He pointed out that western nations have killed more Muslims and invaded more Muslim countries and so it is a ridiculous claim that "they" are the barbarians. What is it about the video that leads you to say he's a Hollywood liberal shouting down the opposition? (I'd watch the video, but YouTube doesn't work great in china)
HordOfTheFlies Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Sam Harris says that some people hold views that are "deeply troubling". Ben's response is to say something about them being an "anathema to ours". I think that's interesting.
Josh F Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Yeah Ben is wrong about Muslims, and Sam is wrong in thinking the democratic world is somehow infinitely better. The majority in the democratic world support politicians who imprison you for smoking a weed, force you into indoctrination camps, etc. The majority in the Muslim world support some degree of islamic influence in our lives or another, from price fixing to stoning rape victims to imprisoning atheists. Now, on the question of blowback.... the topic gets very historical quickly. How far back can we take blow-back? Cold War funding in Afghanistan after WWII? Or WWI with the ottoman empire? Or the fall of Byzantium? The invasion by the failed Crusaders heading east? Or the much larger invasion of Spain and southern Europe by the Muslims? How does the west engage islam in war, and vice versa how does this islamic world engage the west in war? Successfully, the west's only victories against islam are within the culture war. Rock music, porno, fashion, dancing, these are the most devastating element facing modern islamic culture. Militarily, the west props up and then starve out dictators, something the west has been doing in those regions since Alexander the Great (before islam). What does Islam do for war? They tend to make economic attacks. They target shipping lanes, trade centers, public markets, etc. Generally they use extreme terror to inhibit free trade. Its really hard to say hating muslims is a blind prejudice. And its really hard to say the west doesn't deserve a similar amount of scorn.
Triumph Posted October 5, 2014 Author Posted October 5, 2014 I haven't seen the debate, but I've seen some twitter discussion around the show and it seems to me that Affleck made good points. Ben didn't make any good points. He didn't make any bad points. He just played the politically correct card over and over. 1
Triumph Posted October 5, 2014 Author Posted October 5, 2014 I've had a few arguments with people who'd tell me I am prejudiced against muslims. I tell them "no shit, but when 80 year old white women start strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up planes and bus, I'll start hating old white women for no good reason too." There is this huge emotional defensive barrier to being politically correct. An exercise to do for yourself is take out the words "islam" & "muslim" in that conversation and put in the word "Nazi", and their conversation will sound stupid as fuck. Not all Nazis support killing jews... those are the small number radical Nazis. //end rant 1
Josh F Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 I've had a few arguments with people who'd tell me I am prejudiced against muslims. I tell them "no shit, but when 80 year old white women start strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up planes and bus, I'll start hating old white women for no good reason too." There is this huge emotional defensive barrier to being politically correct. An exercise to do for yourself is take out the words "islam" & "muslim" in that conversation and put in the word "Nazi", and their conversation will sound stupid as fuck. Not all Nazis support killing jews... those are the small number radical Nazis. //end rant yeah but in the end of the day, these people aren't more violent, they just don't have the option to defer their violence to another authority. Point in fact, for all the old white ladies who supported the wars in Iraq, compared to say, a victim of those attacks seeking revenge... the moral line is not so black and white. The west has blood on its hands, but westerners can just wipe it off. I didn't bomb anyone. I didn't kill anyone. This is the reality of asymmetrical warfare. It is kids with rocks against tanks, men turned into home made bombs against a war machine that drops millions of tons of explosives over people you love. So yes, philosophically Islam is dumb as dirt. Yet so is the "democratic" state, and it is a far more capable killing machine. In Islam they persecute atheists, in the west they persecute marijuana smokers. In islam a woman doesn't have equal access to the law in marital affairs, in the west men don't have equal access to the law in marital affairs. In islam, they brainwash children into their cult. In public school they brainwash children into their cult. 2
PatrickC Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 I don't think you can conflate what Sam says (at the beginning) about Islamaphobia and criticizing the doctrine of Islam with that of the US govts war mongering amongst Islamic countries. They are two separate issues. Whilst Sam may well be supportive (in part) of some of the US's involvement in those wars, that wasn't what he was actually saying before Affleck went on his rant.
Triumph Posted October 6, 2014 Author Posted October 6, 2014 ...This is the reality of asymmetrical warfare. It is kids with rocks against tanks, men turned into home made bombs against a war machine that drops millions of tons of explosives over people you love. ... Love? What do these violent muslims at war with us, love? They kill their own daughter for going out with an american boy. Behead a neighbor for leaving islam. And strap bombs to the mentally disturbed to kill themselves with as many innocents as possible to make a political statement. Their actions show nothing of love in them, so I will not consider them to have any. Do you have as much empathy for a corrupt politician trying to grow the power of the state into his own tyranny? 1
Josh F Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Love? What do these violent muslims at war with us, love? They kill their own daughter for going out with an american boy. Behead a neighbor for leaving islam. And strap bombs to the mentally disturbed to kill themselves with as many innocents as possible to make a political statement. Their actions show nothing of love in them, so I will not consider them to have any. Do you have as much empathy for a corrupt politician trying to grow the power of the state into his own tyranny? Yeah, but just apply that logic to all of society though. About westerns "they kill their unborn children, bomb wedding parties, arrest people for smoking plants they like, and they strap machine guns to their dumbest children and indoctrinate them in public school to kill many innocents to make political statements. They hit their children, and yell at them. Their actions show nothing of love in them." I mean this isn't a particularly controversial statement, but people are shaped by their environment. If their environment includes invisible drones flying over the blue sky dropping bombs.... like the 9000 flying over Pakistan alone. If their environment kills so many adults its one of the youngest regions in the world. Life expectancy, trade, happiness, opportunity, etc, are all shrinking to nothing.
Triumph Posted October 8, 2014 Author Posted October 8, 2014 Yeah, but just apply that logic to all of society though. About westerns "they kill their unborn children, bomb wedding parties, arrest people for smoking plants they like, and they strap machine guns to their dumbest children and indoctrinate them in public school to kill many innocents to make political statements. They hit their children, and yell at them. Their actions show nothing of love in them." I mean this isn't a particularly controversial statement, but people are shaped by their environment. If their environment includes invisible drones flying over the blue sky dropping bombs.... like the 9000 flying over Pakistan alone. If their environment kills so many adults its one of the youngest regions in the world. Life expectancy, trade, happiness, opportunity, etc, are all shrinking to nothing. I love how you offer a emotionally charged argument in return, that can only be effective if the very people you are condemning to be without compassion, do infact have compassion and virtue and find the very crimes you charge them with doing, disgusting. You need to stop looking at the rhetoric and look at the actual actions of the nations. The USA could easily invade, bomb, and nuke ISIS out of existence. We can do it but we don't because we find it morally reprehensible, and the portions of our society that would do it, are met with overwhelming oppositions by the masses. We instead waste a lot of time & money trying to find peaceful ways to resolve this insanity. By contrast, the muslim nations WOULD invade, bomb, and nuke the USA out of existance if they could. Their moderates don't find it so morally wrong to oppose the muslims who would do it. There is not enough opposition by the masses to stop the murder of innocent, rape of women, and out right genocide of nonmuslims. Since they can't have their way completely, they do the next best thing with acts of terror. So yeah, I'm a bit biased. 2
Josh F Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 I love how you offer a emotionally charged argument in return, that can only be effective if the very people you are condemning to be without compassion, do infact have compassion and virtue and find the very crimes you charge them with doing, disgusting. You need to stop looking at the rhetoric and look at the actual actions of the nations. The USA could easily invade, bomb, and nuke ISIS out of existence. We can do it but we don't because we find it morally reprehensible, and the portions of our society that would do it, are met with overwhelming oppositions by the masses. We instead waste a lot of time & money trying to find peaceful ways to resolve this insanity. By contrast, the muslim nations WOULD invade, bomb, and nuke the USA out of existance if they could. Their moderates don't find it so morally wrong to oppose the muslims who would do it. There is not enough opposition by the masses to stop the murder of innocent, rape of women, and out right genocide of nonmuslims. Since they can't have their way completely, they do the next best thing with acts of terror. So yeah, I'm a bit biased. Well, sorry but thats a little annoying to be accused of making an emotional argument based on rhetoric, considering your argument is exactly that. The evidence of your claim that Muslims are more willing to kill civilians does not exist. The megatonnage by the US dropped over Islamic countries is much larger than the combined total of megatonnage dropped by Islamic States on any country: including a nuclear Pakistan. The death count of muslim civilians, its literally hundreds of thousands if not millions. Now you have claimed to understand the mind of the average muslim. Please, before we go any further, describe to me the extend of your experience with Muslims personally. Which islamic countries have you lived in? Do you have a lot of muslim friends or contacts? 1
Triumph Posted October 9, 2014 Author Posted October 9, 2014 I don't accuse, this is, ..."they kill their unborn children, bomb wedding parties, arrest people for smoking plants they like, and they strap machine guns to their dumbest children and indoctrinate them in public school to kill many innocents to make political statements. They hit their children, and yell at them. Their actions show nothing of love in them." ...emotionally charged rhetoric. I've been in two islamic countries. I talked to as many people as I could. Evil shit fills their daily conversation. The care nothing about the land, dump trucks drops tons of shit just off the edge of the highways. They consider foreign women less than animals, since they can't be married their only use is as fuck toys. And their great ambition in life is to become wealthy so they can replace the wealthy assholes who made their life miserable and start their own harem. They are the most self-centered culture I have run into. I have twice as many Muslim friends as I do black friends. All of it would be forgivable or at least tolerable, but they really do want to subdue the rest of the world and force everyone else to live their way or die. I seem overzealous, but that is because I believe total war is the only way to wage war. Mourning innocent lives, mistakes made and being politically correct needs to come after the war is won. Losing is the only unforgivable outcome. As much as we would like to avoid it, we are in a war. 2
Josh F Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 So citing a fact is rhetoric but "Evil shit fills their daily conversation" and "They are the most self-centered culture I have run into" are arguments? This discussion is over.
labmath2 Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 The problem many people had with Sam Harris in that discussion is the use of vague language. Islam is no more particularly worse than Christianity. It just so happens many of the Christians we in the west are familiar with have abandoned most of the biblical passages that we would consider just as bad as some of the same things some Muslim extremists support. The question then is concerning the comments target, is it the text, or those who practice Islam (of which there are millions who just like many christian do not practice exactly what is in the text).
Cosmin Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Another good rant by Bill Maher about Islam. "The rule of law is not just different than theocracy. It's better" Amen, brother! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4byxib6Pfg
Triumph Posted October 14, 2014 Author Posted October 14, 2014 Another good rant by Bill Maher about Islam. "The rule of law is not just different than theocracy. It's better" Amen, brother! this one's been taken down :/ So citing a fact is rhetoric but "Evil shit fills their daily conversation" and "They are the most self-centered culture I have run into" are arguments? This discussion is over. Rhetoric is to repeat the arguments and conclusions of others. Like a parrot talking, it hears something and repeats it. Although in this instance I would have preferred the parrot What I did was relay personal experiences, something immune to criticism. My analysis of the conversations I've had can be questioned but not the fact that I had them. And finally... what discussion? It requires two people of relatively similar intelligence to have a discussion. This conversation was more like me scolding a dog for pissing on the carpet. 2
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