Josh Takacs Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 I think it is obvious we all want a peaceful and virtuous world. The question is how do we get there. I agree that peaceful parenting is the best long term goal but I don't think it will be enough. We always speak of investing in virtue and that it pays in the long run and this is true. The problem is most people don't have the money, time, or extra mental effort to invest. Its like giving corn to a starving man and saying, " Plant this don't eat it. If you eat it now you will starve to death." Even if he understands this concept he will reply, " I'm starving now. I know that if I eat now I will starve later. I choose life now even if it is only for a short time." I don't think we will ever be able to convince people to invest with capital they don't have when the state can always say here's 50 bucks. I think for real change libertarians need to take the political stance of a robin hood. Don't lead with how the war on drugs is morally indefensible lead with the cost and how its done no good only harm. People can become really tolerant really fast when they are bribed with a tax break. Tell people trapped in the welfare state night mare that a reverse income tax will cut out the bureaucrats and leave more money for them. They will drop the progressives like a bad habit. I know that these are not virtuous means or virtuous ends but it turns the tide. It will end the dilution that more state power is the answer and stop the bleeding. the problem of the state is still there but it does two things, Buys time and gives libertarianism credit and trust in the public's mind. We can say," remember how everything got a little better after we ended the war on drugs? Let me talk to you about the federal reserve and the banks."
_LiveFree_ Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 Hey Josh, welcome to the forums. There are 2700+ podcasts on this site that explain why this is wishful thinking. 1 1
regevdl Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 Hi Josh, Welcome. I used to be a Democrat at the dismay of my very conservative parents. Yet, through constant searching and evaluation (not always....I used to be as deaf, dumb and blind as the next statist) I was still able to find my way to moral and philosophical consistency. And it wasnt' because of any ground breaking legislation or bribe from gub'ment. I cannot say there was really ONE person or ONE event or ONE method that finally got through to me, rather a compilation. You see, it's a form of enlightenment and therefore takes time, processing, absorbing, adjusting. It's not the most pleasant or the fastest but it does work and did work for me. There is not a quick fix, there is not a magic button there is not a 'one size fits all'. There were a few 'ah ha' moments for me and they added up and added up until I couldn't consciously ignore reality anymore. THAT'S the best way, the most permanent way and the most effective way to make real change. If you, like everyone else, wants change now so you can see and take credit for it in your lifetime, then, sadly nothing will change and people will wait for the next 'squeaky wheel' to get the oil and go along with the change they want. When you approach people like that, then they are easily manipulated and don't really stand firm on any one thing and sway with the kpolitical breeze. We need a society that at least stands firm on some basic principles but to achieve that, they need to see their own inconsistencies. But, if youare willing to plant a seed(s) so that our future generations can continually enjoy the shade under that tree, then that explains best how this process works. Your examples are really just 'pavlovian' methods. responding to rewards and punishments. that is not a conscious shift. That is not acting moral, rather than just feeding impulses and 'obedience'. It's the same with religion. If people need the threat of eternal damnation or the reward of serene heaven just to behave and act morally, then, that is disingenuous. Same with State functions and legislations. If you are doing it for the good intentions, guess what. So are the Republicans and Democrats and everyone else. Eveyrone wants the glory to be in charge and the moral guidance of society. The movement I am part of says, no thank you...I will be in charge of my own morality that doesn't shift with majority votes and bribes, rather remains constant and consistent and life rewards and punishes me as my guiding tool. I can only speak for myself but in my process of waking people up (and I live in Israel and try to wake people up between the Israeli Palestianian conflict so that's FUN!) lol I am constantly changing my approach depending on past successes and failures AND my audience. Some are win, some are total fail and some are spot on. But what works for one, won't work for another so first and foremost I rarely just begin a dialogue about the specific issue. It's a constant challenge and why we must keep at it. I first find common ground on non threatening issues or topics or life. Then I ask THEM their opinion on certain issues (rather than just preach what I believe). I find these are the most important 'ice breakers' to make the conversation last as long as possible and establish an actual bond, not just a info-dumping meeting. People like being asked their thoughts and talk about themselves and that represents the 'movement' well in that aspect as being inquisitive and understanding. Not dictatorial. See, you first need to understand that in this so-called movement, we aren't out to tell people what to think or how to behave. Only to lead by example or encourage. Anyway, Once I know where they stand on certain issues then I can civilly and constructively point out hypocracies and pitfalls in their logic or policies. Usually by the end they see things 'my' way because they have no arguments to counter. Will they go home a changed individual forever? Will they see the fallacies but continue on their current path? I will never know in most cases and frankly it's no longer important. I did my job. Most people are dissatisfied by that and need validation that they 'changed' someone. I take it as just as there were many people I encountered that gave me an 'ah ha' moment, it still took several before I woke up. So...just be someone's AH HA moment. And trust me, telling someone what laws should be passed or what bribe they should accept for the greater good is not inspiring. People are starving for inspriation and logic and good communication and they don't even know they are starving for it until they actually receive it. Just be someone's AH HA moment. What happens after that is out of your control. Don't try to control the outcome, then you are no better than the slavemasters. I WISH I could go back, remember, and thank every person who gave me that 'ah ha' moment but that's impossible. Some I never met! I woke up about the FED and eventually Ron Paul by a man in the middle of NYC shouting in the streets about fractional banking! lol He never mentioned the word 'FED' but it stuck with me so by the time someone metnioned Ron Paul's name I was like. mmmm..ok...I'll see what that's about and so on. Lastly, I have tried the 'moral' approach with people. It doesn't work. People HATE being faced with their own morality in the name of them championing for morality and do-gooder policies. So, I've been dabbling in a new approach that has worked. You need to be a caricature of the person you are discussing. That's not to say you should be rude, offensive, aggressive and insulting. Basically mirror back their ideals in a cartoonish way (why it's useful to have a large vocabulary...paint picture with words). It takes practice and you will fail and win sometimes or sometimes you will never ever know if you made an impact on someone. That's where trusting that you are on the right path for yourself and humanity comes in very handy and is constantly tested. If you ever have a disscusion and want to 'play back' the conversation to see how to handle certain topics or common reactions by people to use for future reference, then this forum is a great tool. Good luck! 3
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