"Adam Kokesh and our Abusive Relationship with the Government"

[Culain]

Adam kokesh recently posted this article

 

http://www.libertybriefing.com/articles/adam-kokesh-and-our-abusive-relationship-with-the-government/293

 

I'm kind of disappointed with how much potential this article could of had if he would have focused on parenting but instead he took the back door out early into the third paragraph

 

"On some level, your parents will always love you and a bad relationship with a parent is unfortunate."

 

Really Adam?

 

The government does not physically exist and simply consists of people who make choices. Those choices are influenced by the lives of the people who are raised by parents/guardians. The Government exists because there is a lack of love in the world which parents are responsible for providing.

 

 

[dsayers]

Yeah, I wouldn't call being deliberately harmed to the point of not being able to rationally think and/or achieve happiness as "unfortunate." I call it a disproof of the theory that the title "parent" means anything other than having biologically produced.

 

"On some level, your murderer will always value you as a human being and them stabbing you is unfortunate." It not only dispenses with defining terms, but flies in the face of what those terms are considered to mean.

[MysterionMuffles]

Forgive me if what I'm about to say is condescending, but I have always viewed Adam as a rebellious teenager. The protests he holds, the intentional imprisonment--it reminds me of my own youth wherein I would argue with teachers to the point of getting suspended, thinking that it made a difference beyond momentarily let them know that their power was injust. The Jefferson Hall Memoiral Dance Party was a great way to show people the ridiculousness of the law, but anything after that seemed kind of reckless. Adam and his crew intentionally breaking laws like selling lemonade, smoking weed in public in front of cops, it's just too reflective of the typical portrayal of achieving "Anarchy," the likes of which causes people to believe in the stigma that Anarchy means either violent revolution (like his cancelled loaded gun march), or some other kind of abrasive rallying and protesting.

 

I would love to get an insight on Adam Kokesh's childhood to see what would cause him to become a soldier in the first place, and then turn tail--which I applaud him for, it must have been huge to flip the switch on his ideals like that--and now working towards exposing the idiocy of the State, while enacting some idiocy of his own. 

[Josh Takacs]

Are you all really serious? How can you sit safely behind your computer screen and throw stones at a man who has had the courage to sand up to the state at great risk to both himself and those he loves. Adam opened my eyes to the violence that surrounds us all. He has done more to promote freedom then you, I or anyone else on this site save Stefan. To criticize him without having had the courage to sacrifice what he has is nothing short of cowardice. Adam and Stefan have the same massage they just go about spreading it differently. Adam has said before introducing Stefan for his speech "Statists don't care about you" that each of Stefan's 9 million YouTube views represents an epiphany and a personal revolution for someone. He then says and I quote, "To me Stefan Molyneux represents the epitome of the modern evolved human mind." He then goes on the credit Stefan as one of the four people that have made him, "The man he is today." At the start of Adam's speech "Freedom is inevitable" Stefan says "I can't tell you how much I admire him." within the first 6 seconds of the video and then goes on to say he was "very much humbled by the amount of integrity, courage and sacrifice to go from being a Marine to a incredibly passionate anti- war activist an incredibly motivating speaker and an incredibly powerful community organizer." If you watch the opening to each video it will take no more then five minutes to see the deep respect they share for each other. All the people who's eyes I have opened to the cancer that is the state is because in part due to Adam. He is a true hero of freedom just like Stefan who has made sacrifice after sacrifice at the alter of freedom. Look in the mirror and ask yourself what you have done with the precious gift that was your enlightenment. I would bet my very soul it is laughable in comparison, I know mine is. So the next time you want to throw a stone at some one who is fighting for freedom look at the glass house that you, I and everyone else lives in and ask. "what have I done for freedom today?"

[dsayers]

He has done more to promote freedom then you, I or anyone else on this site save Stefan.

 

How do you know? Did you know that I've done exactly what you praise Mr. Kokesh for (and I did it when he was a cog in the war machine)? Did you know it was foolhardy for me (and him) to do it? Did you know that in order to "stand up to the State" one only needs to accept their own self-ownership? Did you know that your claim is literally so bold and so generalized that it's almost impossible for it to be accurate?

 

Larken Rose was a big part in my personal path to freedom. I'd like to shake the guy's hand, but it doesn't prevent me from using critical thinking and identifying mistakes he makes. Hero worship is a dangerous thing.

[Josh Takacs]

You will sit by and watch as what little of the worlds freedom remains dies around you. And when the day finally comes and the murders in costumes finally come for you like the Nazis came for the Jews or the Khmer Rouge came for the teachers what will you say? I own myself? You will only be the owner of two things. The bullet in your held and the shallow grave for your body. 

You can't just state your opinion and act like its a fact. "Did you know it was foolhardy for me (and him) to do it? Did you know that in order to "stand up to the State" one only needs to accept their own self-ownership?" You may as well have said I'm right because I say so...... I win! You didn't even address any part of my argument. 

[dsayers]

You didn't even address any part of my argument. 

 

I addressed that it wasn't an argument at all. It was a mix of assertion and an appeal to authority. Rather than substantiating your assertion with logic, reason, or evidence, you've doubled down, adding spooky language and an accusation of not responding. The irony being that you didn't respond to any of the questions asked of you, which could've moved your assertion into the argument category if it was valid.

[Josh Takacs]

Again, "I addressed that it wasn't an argument at all. It was a mix of assertion and an appeal to authority." That is an opinion you present as a fact it may as well say I win ten times in all caps. I ask questions that you refuse to answer, "When the day finally comes and the murders in costumes finally come for you like the Nazis came for the Jews or the Khmer Rouge came for the teachers what will you say? I own myself?"In my original post I present numerous quotes and I stand by my statement, "He has done more to promote freedom then you, I or anyone else on this site save Stefan." If you feel you or anyone else here has done more to promote freedom or self ownership then he has please presentyour case I would love to hear it.  

[dsayers]

I think your continued perception of "I win" is projection. In numerous threads on the forums, I've asked you probative questions. You have yet to answer one of them. Does this mean your claimed goals are lies or that you're not interested in accuracy?

 

If you feel you or anyone else here has done more to promote freedom or self ownership then he has please presentyour case I would love to hear it.  

 

YOU made the outrageous claim. The onus is upon you. The question was: How do you know? Your deflection suggests that the answer is "I don't."

[Josh Takacs]

It makes me very happy to see that you have discovered that your opinion is not fact,  "I think your continued perception of "I win" is projection." When you say "I think" you are confirming that you have a theory but that your theory many not necessarily be a fact. Let me be the first to congratulate you on your personal revolution in consciousness. Now to address your question, "In numerous threads on the forums, I've asked you probative questions. You have yet to answer one of them. Does this mean your claimed goals are lies or that you're not interested in accuracy?" It seems in the conversations we have had in the past you and I both want a free self owning world. Where we differ is how we think it will be achieved. I think (my opinion) that it will be a slow methodical process where we must actively talk to and persuade as many people as we can to embrace freedom and self ownership though activism, peaceful parenting, politics and any and all aspects of our society. I also think (my opinion) that less oppression in society as a opposed to more ( china compared to Hong Kong for example) will make a cause and effect reaction for the average person. They will see freedom + self ownership = prosperity. This will cause the average person to pursue freedom and self ownership. Again this is only my opinion if you disagree I would love to hear your case. You said, "Did you know that in order to "stand up to the State" one only needs to accept their own self-ownership?" This leads me to believe that you are under the impression that self ownership makes you impervious to attack form a violent person. (possibly though magic or a freedom force field?) This in turn prompted my question that I will now ask for a third time, "And when the day finally comes and the murders in costumes finally come for you like the Nazis came for the Jews or the Khmer Rouge came for the teachers what will you say? I own myself?" Did you see what just happened there?You ask a question, I give my answer and then ask you a question in return. We are having a conversation, YAY frontal cortex! Finally You said, "YOU made the outrageous claim. The onus is upon you. The question was: How do you know? Your deflection suggests that the answer is "I don't."" In response to my statement, "If you feel you or anyone else here has done more to promote freedom or self ownership then he has please present your case I would love to hear it." To this I say Adam his a website and a podcast that are dedicated to promoting freedom and self ownership. 35,000 plus twitter followers with all or at least most tweets pertaining to freedom. Multiple self made YouTube videos that promote freedom. Hundreds of speeches about freedom and his new book "Freedom" to name only a few things. Now if you or anyone else would like to make a case that they have done more to promote freedom and self ownership I would love to read it and then shower you with my admiration. I Apologize for not spelling out my position earlier I was just under the impression that if someone was to attack someone else's actions they would have taken the time research that person. This was a gross assumption on my part and I admit my mistake. Finally you said, "Hero worship is a dangerous thing." Please understand that I do not "worship" Adam as you seem to think. I do like Stefan admire the things he has done and take inspiration from him. All of the quotes I used in my first post was to show the level of respect Stefan has for Adam. I hoped because obviously we all have respect for Stefan on this site it might persuade people to act with a little more respect for Adam. Once again it is obvious I was wrong. 

[square4]

The protests he holds, the intentional imprisonment

 

Was it the intention of Adam to be imprisoned? Unless Adam specifically wanted to be in prison, then it is not intensional, and saying it is intensional is similar to saying it was "intentional rape", when a woman would put herself in a risky situation.

 

Adam and his crew intentionally breaking laws like selling lemonade, smoking weed in public in front of cops, it's just too reflective of the typical portrayal of achieving "Anarchy," the likes of which causes people to believe in the stigma that Anarchy means either violent revolution (like his cancelled loaded gun march), or some other kind of abrasive rallying and protesting.

 

(sarcasm begin) Adam, you have sold lemonade, and you knew this was against the law. Now the people will even more think that we anarchists are really nasty abrasive folks. So Adam, why can't you be a good obedient slave? Just do whatever they say, otherwise you will make things worse. (sarcasm end)

[dsayers]

You said, "Did you know that in order to "stand up to the State" one only needs to accept their own self-ownership?" This leads me to believe that you are under the impression that self ownership makes you impervious to attack form a violent person.

 

I ask you how you got this from that knowing that the answer will likely never come.

 

if someone was to attack someone else's actions they would have taken the time research that person. This was a gross assumption on my part and I admit my mistake. Finally you said, "Hero worship is a dangerous thing." Please understand that I do not "worship" Adam

 

Yet you continue to speak as if somebody doing X, Y, and Z means that them doing A cannot possibly be flawed. While not actually explaining how X, Y, or Z accomplishes the goal it claims to have and you think it satisfied.

 

All that text and you still have yet to answer "How do you know?" To which you're now tripling down, including adding aggressive language. The problem here is that you don't seem to understand how important a question that is. If your interest was in being accurate, then such a question would either lead to an answer, or an admission that you were wrong to make such a large scale, generalized, baseless accusation.

 

Using your daily allotment of downvotes as an ideological weapon against me won't change this.

[Josh Takacs]

"Using your daily allotment of downvotes as an ideological weapon against me won't change this.  ;)" You have done the same thing to me. but still this is true and I admit it was childish of me and I apologize, now moving on. I will first address "All that text and you still have yet to answer "How do you know?"" The simple answer is that I don't know if this is the best or even only way to create a truly free world because there has never been one. So in this regard no one knows including yourself I though this was pretty common knowledge but again I was wrong. I also never claimed that it was the best or the only way. It's like no matter what I say you hear me say, "Adam good because smart peaceful parenting bad because dumb." The whole point to "all that text" 1. What Adam has done is valid and has helped promote freedom and self ownership in the world. 2. He has made more people aware of self ownership, non initiation of force, the violence in our lives and a better way of life then you, me and everyone else here save Stefan and you should be show more respect. 3. Again if Stefan has said the things he has said about Adam you may want to at least consider that his actions are virtuous and you may want to show a little more respect to the man. Also my X,Y and Z was my China/ Hong Kong section. How this will be done exactly I have no idea just as humanity had no idea how it was going to feed itself when it abandoned slavery. I do believe based on all of history that the "more free" people in the "more free" society are more likely to find a way. I also believe that Adam, Stefan and active people like them will help make this happen. It is apparent we do not share this idea and that is okay. Next I will not ask you what you would do if faced with what the Jews faced under the Third Reich or any other people who where crushed under the boot of homicidal violence though out all human history. I will how ever ask you to ask yourself. It is something every self owning, self aware and free thinking person (whom you obviously are) must ask themselves because historically it was a decision they had to make. To ignore it is to leave one cage for another. Finally I will say it seems obvious that we have developed a rivalry that is close to hate. I want to say that I do not hate you and I think you are a very talented and intelligent philosopher. I as think that you are very negative and inflexible. I understand that truth is inflexible. 2+2 isn't 4ish but we don't live in a world based on truth. I think to ask for truth applied in our world today is like asking a driver to stop his car by hitting a wall. I want to use the breaks and I know I must compromise truth to do this but if it stops the car heading for a cliff like I think it will, I can live with that. For anything I have said to insult you, I am sorry.  

[dsayers]

 

You have done the same thing to me

 

Not at all. I saw a lack of philosophical integrity, so I tried to encourage you to be honest/precise. When you refused to, I downvoted your post because of this lack of integrity. It's not because we don't see eye to eye, it's because you don't know why you see what you see and you are unwilling to address that. Resisting self-knowledge on a forum dedicated to philosophy and spreading virtue in the world is counter-intuitive.

 

The simple answer is that I don't know if this is the best or even only way to create a truly free world because there has never been one. So in this regard no one knows including yourself I though this was pretty common knowledge but again I was wrong. I also never claimed that it was the best or the only way. It's like no matter what I say you hear me say, "Adam good because smart peaceful parenting bad because dumb."

 

More baseless accusations. I guess this means you're quadrupling down? The question of how you know was in regards to your claim that Mr. Kokesh has done more to "promote freedom" than EVERYBODY else on this board, save Stef.

 

I stopped reading your post shortly thereafter because you for a third time tried to put words in my mouth.

[Josh Takacs]

I fully acknowledge that, I was wrong to act that way and I apologize. I just saw the same dismissive attitude for Adam that I encounter every day as well when I speak about freedom and self ownership. I never saw that here until now it made me see red and I acted foolishly. I will now say these points and leave it alone because I just don't see what else I can say.

 

1. I never said everybody I said anybody as in any single person. I still stand by this.

2. Please anybody address any of the other points I have brought up.  

[Lars]

Adam appears to be falling back into typical anti-productive Libertarian rants (valid nonetheless) in place of his prior rebellion which only served to turn the general public against him for as briefly as their droning attention was held. I still enjoy his work for the most part, he could focus more on raising children properly, but that would require him to accept that he will not live to see day where freedom is truly realized. I don't think he's quite there yet.

[Josh Takacs]

I both agree and respectfully disagree. A do wish he talked more about peaceful parenting and I don't agree with every way he try's to change the world. But I see he's trying and I see it is working to some degree just like Stefan does here. That's why I support both of them. As far as not living to see a peaceful and prosperous world I agree that in all likelihood I will not live to see it. I am also not yet willing to accept that yet. If that means I'm young and idealistic ill take that. If it means I'm young and foolhardy I can live with that as well. I think when you give up hope a piece of you dies inside. Like George Carlin said, "inside every cynic is a disappointed idealist" My idealism died once when I was younger. Free domain Radio Stefan Molyneux and Adam Kokesh revived it. I'm not ready to bury it again. please note I say this with nothing but respect for you. 

In closing I will say only these things. 

1. I am sorry for the anger and disrespect I showed and if it offended you and you are reading this now please accept my most heart felt apology. I have a long and violent past that I still struggle with every day. Please note I am not trying to make excuses or doge responsibility for my actions. I also stand behind every point I have made even though I deeply regret the way I made them. The only reason I leave them up unchanged is to remind myself and hopefully to show others that anger is like violence in that it is poison to all that it touches. Again I take full responsibility for all I said its one of the reasons I use my real name with my real picture and have my real email for contact. I am willing to take praise or condemnation.

2. If you have listened to Stefan and supported his position on peaceful parenting please read Adam's book "Freedom". You don't have to think its the best or only way to make a peaceful world I've never made that clam but if you find it's message virtuous consider supporting it and him as you would Stefan. We all know in this world any form of freedom needs all the help it can get.

[Lars]

Enthusiasm for changes in the immediate future is fully commendable if our limited time and energy is used wisely for the sake of achieving virtuous long-term goals. Cynicism tends to arise when we persistently fail to allocate our efforts wisely through a disregard of empirical evidence, although the stupidity generated by culture, tradition and propaganda can be overwhelming at times.

[Josh Takacs]

I agree. I think we will also agree that peaceful parenting is the best long term investment we can make right now for a peaceful tomorrow. I believe it and I live it to the best of my limited abilities. But I also want to do something today for tomorrow. It is my belief that if we only invest in peaceful parenting today the dividends it will yield tomorrow will not be enough to pay the principle and the interest accrued by the violence today and then. We must do more now or we will shackle are children with a debt both financial and social so great no person no matter how virtuous could ever hope to pay for it. If anyone can show me where I am wrong please show me.

[dsayers]

He has done more to promote freedom then you, I or anyone else on this site save Stefan.

 

I never said everybody I said anybody as in any single person. I still stand by this.

 

Anybody except Stef is everybody except Stef. You're arguing semantics instead of answering: HOW DO YOU KNOW?

 

anger is like violence in that it is poison to all that it touches

 

Anger is a healthy emotion. It's a way of identifying a problem and being motivated to address that problem. The poison comes from a lack of self-knowledge or understanding of a problem leading us to respond to the anger in an inappropriate or ineffective manner. This inefficacy is precisely why I've made an effort to speak with you long after you've demonstrated that it is likely a fruitless endeavor. See, you remind me of myself from not that long ago. So eager to do SOMETHING that I didn't bother to let that something include things like understanding how people think, how things work, the fundamental nature of "the problem," and how to address it. I have the same opinion of Mr. Kokesh, which is why I'm not the least bit surprised that you identify with him so closely that you'd lash out at anybody/everybody who could criticize something he's done.

 

Please do not respond to this if you're not going to bother answering how do you know that Stef is the only person who's done more to promote freedom than Mr. Kokesh. Frankly, I'm getting tired of asking it and tired of you letting that claim stand.

[Josh Takacs]

Thank you for you post again I am sorry for my actions It was small of me and I agree with your insight on anger. My answer is. 

 

When I said "anybody" or "anyone" I am referring to any single individual not the collective actions of all members of free domain radio. To know with any form of certainty the total affects of any one persons actions is impossible let alone the collective actions of all the people involved with free domain radio. If I where trying to make this claim I would have said, Adam and all his follower have done more then free domain radio followers. This would have been a baseless and ignorant statement, The point I was trying to make is that in my opinion Adam as an individual has done more to promote freedom then any other individual on free domain radio and to dismiss him and his actions for not sharing your views is (in my opinion) both elitist and disrespectful (Which angers me and is something I must work on.) I concede to you that I can not know this for a fact because like I said it is impossible to know the collective affects of any individuals actions. So yes in this relent you are right and I am wrong I can't know for sure but I think my examples make a strong case. If you have would like to present a case that this point or any of the other points I have raised is wrong I would love to read them. Otherwise please don't respond to this because I too am tired of what I now view as a long philosophical argument over the definition and use of words in the English language.