PreDeadMan Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 The Advocate guy is the advocate of the minimum wage. I'm Devin.....Can someone evaluate this we aren't finished yet but I want to know if I make a compelling case. I welcome all criticisms. Every time I post an anti minimum wage meme he responds to it lol. Advocate: well if one person collects all the wealth while those who work for them barely make enough to survive there's a word for that.... its slavery 1 hr · Like Devin W Congema Nobody is forced to work for "x" person they are free to work for any other person providing they have the skills to do so. They can also start their own business providing the government gets out of the way so the cost of entry to start up the business isn't bombarded with lots of regulations and fees and licenses that stifles the lower income people from competing in the marketplace. Slavery is being forced by the threat of violence to give up a percentage of the fruits of your labor to a violent and coercive entity called the government. The relationship between the boss and the worker is purely voluntary. The boss and worker can negotiate wages the boss isn't sticking a gun to people's heads and forcing them to work for him/her. 1 hr · Like Advocate: ah no but since all employment is at will... you have a choice between working for unfair wages and such or not working at all... hence why so many people stay on welfare.... bc they make more... a lot of these are skilled workers who have no other course of action due to economic downturn..... thats why unions are needed 1 hr · Like Advocate: and maybe not a literal gun but all they have to do is blackball you.... the truth behind the economics in this country is a giant conspiracy 1 hr · Like Devin W Congema Who determines if a wage is unfair or not? What if someone's labor isn't worth a "living wage" as the left calls it. I believe the left creates these emotional words "living wage", "unfair wage" as a way to try and use violence to get what they want by going to the government to implement a one size fits all law. If your solution to a problem is a loaded gun pointed at peaceful people ... unfortunately it's not a moral solution. Welfare is also another problem stealing is never a moral solution to a problem. Unfortunately the government stands in the way of letting free and voluntary people solve problems. What incentive does the government have to let people solve their own problems and make people realize it doesn't need it? They indoctrinate people in their schools that they need it. Just think if coca cola was running education they would have the ceos on the wall instead of presidents and saying how great coca cola is and without it everyone would be worse off. 49 mins · Like Advocate: actually the term living wage was including in the original minimum wage laws.... and it is stated as a wage where one can meet all basic needs comfortably.... 49 mins · Like Advocate: minimum wage was always intended to be a living wage 48 mins · Like Devin W Congema Everyone's needs are different from each other. Everyone also has different lifestyles. If you can't afford a lifestyle unfortunately you have to downsize or...work harder, another job, find other means of capital to afford it. I don;t think it's fair if you advocate freedom to punish a business owner because that is what these laws do they force the business owner to pay someone "X" dollars if someone's labor isn't worth a minimum wage then they are unemployed. There's unintended consequences when you pass laws which is the gun in the room behind government. Every law is a loaded gun if you don't obey the laws that they make up you will be aggressed against. Desperate people who want a job would work for under the minimum wage but "legally" speaking they can';t do that because a bunch of government thugs will force the business owner to comply EVEN IF both the boss and the worker voluntarily agreed. Nothing good can ever come out of pointing guns at people which is what laws are. 13 mins · Like Advocate: im not talking about lifestyles im talking about being able to afford food and a place to live and a way to and from work etc.... 12 mins · Like Devin W Congema ok so you're talking about just being able to afford the basic necessities to survive. so....once again can there be voluntary interactions with boss and potential worker without the guns of government coming down on peaceful people...? 10 mins · Like Advocate: there could be but there wasnt.... people were being forced to work for less then enough to live or eat.... thats why the law had to be put into place..... literally..... 9 mins · Like Devin W Congema if i'm the owner of a company and my crew is doing very well for me I would want to keep that crew so they wouldn't go to another place to work. I would have to treat them good and give them a raise every now and then so they wouldn't work somewhere else. Good work ethics are going to eventually get rewarded. A person could shop around so to speak for different jobs from within their skill set to see what pays the best wage.
TheBen Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Peter Schiff just talked about this specific argument on his podcast. He had a great point in saying that it's best to argue against minimum wage since it prohibits people from selling their labor at a wage of their own choosing. These leftists are never going to agree that business should be allowed to make money, but they should be able to understand that people are going unemployed because they are not able to sell their labor at a wage of their own choosing. It is literally illegal for them to sell their labor for less than minimum wage. Anyways listen to this podcast starting from Schiff as he explains it better than me. Start listening at the 1 hour 25 minute point.
prolix Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I think I can make an argument for minimum wage although I am 100% anarchist/voluntarist . Ok, so because of all the state intervention and regulation the not-so-free-market, the socialist market, is suppressed. The fiat printing of money and criminal behavior of finical institutions are driving inflation. State debt, foreign wars, crony capitalism and the list goes on; All these things are creating a very unequal and distorted distribution of wealth in the western world, especially in North America. Is minimum wage really the fulcrum of this issue? Is minimum wage proportionately as effectual as all the other factors previously listed in this economy? I would say no. Minimum wage is more like saline solution and asprin for someone who has just been in a car accident. The economy is distorted on all these levels, the car wreck, and a small amount of relief from this is raising the minimum wage, the asprin. Is asprin particularly good for you? No. Would you take it if you hadn't been injured? No. But it eases the pain of this other disaster. Minimum wage is just a minor correction for another set of major involvements in the market. Yes, the market will react to the minimum wage in moderately less than desirable ways. But that reaction will be raised prices and fewer jobs over time to a degree that is small when compared to trillions of debt and trillions of fiat and state protection of corporations. I think it is like imagine you are a cop, imagine you discover that someone is beating and raping captives in his basement. But then you discover that he is feeding them terrible quality food that would almost be criminal, like dogfood or something. Then you get really vocal and outspoken about the poor food conditions and want to prosecute based on the food conditions totally at the expense of the capture/rape/abuse situation. Yes it is state involvement in the market, it is immoral, but at least this time it kinda benefits some of the lower class for a change. I am just thinking out loud and playing devils advocate right now. Really curious about arguments against this...
Triumph Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 just ask them What percent of the total GDP should be paid as minimum wage? isn't that how they should figure what the minimum wage should be?
NotDarkYet Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Using violence to interfere with peaceful cooperation is wrong. But more specifically: If Bob is not worth the minimum wage he becomes unemployed, thus.... 1. Robbing society of Bob's productivity 2. Robbing society to pay for Bob's Welfare checks 3. Preventing Bob from developing skills 4. Robbing Bob of pride
y2k1 Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Min wages aren't all that bad TBH. The thing about anarch capitalists is that they have to think everything is bad when there is evidence to show the opposite, such as the min wage. Right now the min wage is effectively zero.
TheBen Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Min wages aren't all that bad TBH. The thing about anarch capitalists is that they have to think everything is bad when there is evidence to show the opposite, such as the min wage. Right now the min wage is effectively zero. If minimum wages aren't all that bad then tell it to the owner of the winery who is no longer allowed to accept volunteers and may have to close his business/hobby as a result. I also used to see numerous mentally disabled people working at places like McDonald's and grocery stores that I assume are now priced out of the system. The minimum wage laws are directly stopping many people from being able to obtain employment so while minimum wages might not be bad for you, they certainly are bad for many millions of Americans, as well as immigrants.
PreDeadMan Posted October 15, 2014 Author Posted October 15, 2014 Well I think the argument from morality is it's immoral for the government to point guns at business owners to tell them what salary rate they should HAVE to pay their employees. Not everyone's labor is worth the minimum wage therefore the existence of minimum wage laws would make people unemployed if their labor is not worth the current minimum wage. The government is essentially artificially inflating this one size fits all wage salary sort of like the federal reserve does with interest rates. Just look at my discussion with this guy the very first thing he typed was a marxist type thing "well if one person collects all the wealth while those who work for them barely make enough to survive there's a word for that.... its slavery". He doesn't understand that the relationship between the employer and the employee is voluntary and they can peacefully negotiate wages if the minimum wage laws didn't exist that is. I don't think he realizes he advocates for marxism since he made the argument that the business owner keeps all the wealth and the workers get scraps that aren't enough to survive lol.
bitcoin Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I worked for free / volunteered in many places until I developed the skills / knowledge to actually get paid for my work. I am 17 and have been working for $13 an hr for almost a year now. And while I was "working for free" / for knowledge and skills, people will always more than happy to take their time to help me learn many other things, provide me with food, etc. Minimum wage is not necessary if a person has the incentive and drive to do well and earn money on their own..
square4 Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Advocate: there could be but there wasnt.... people were being forced to work for less then enough to live or eat.... thats why the law had to be put into place..... literally..... It seems that at least some wage laws were put in place, not to help the lowest class, but rather to protect a privileged group from competition from cheaper but less skilled labor. Pointer: The book: Race and Economics, by Walter E. Williams (link to a page from the book), interviewed by Rockwell. And if the wage is really too low to live or eat, there are other voluntary ways to solve that, that don't involve violence or coercion.
dsayers Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 The initiation of the use of force is immoral. If person A and person B are voluntarily trading, then for person C to alter the terms of exchange under threat of violence is the initiation of the use of force. The end. How'd I do? Don't waste your time on utilitarian arguments. Not until the other person makes a solid case for how the simultaneous acceptance and rejection of property rights is logically valid. Until then, you're essentially arguing the minutia of a fairy tale. What a fantastic waste of time. 1
NotDarkYet Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Min wages aren't all that bad TBH. Are you advocating violence to support your opinion? As a side note, what profound arrogance (economic, moral, personal) to assume you know what's best for 2 strangers. This is why the world is broken.
Gavitor Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 How bout the government suppliment the wage, IE add 10-15$ to everyone's wages. oh wait that'd basically negate taxes lol 1
AustinJames Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 It seems like he has it all figured out... He has made a lot of claims with no evidence, and exhibits no curiosity. Why are you arguing with him? 1
TheRobin Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 Min wages aren't all that bad TBH. The thing about anarch capitalists is that they have to think everything is bad when there is evidence to show the opposite, such as the min wage. Right now the min wage is effectively zero. Well, as the saying goes, what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
J. D. Stembal Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 Why are you engaging with Muggles on social media? What do you get out of it?
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