Yelled at my son last night...

[Xtort]

Okay, so I'm going to give some background so it's clear why I'm sharing this.  My wife is asian, and along with that comes a culture that is very keen on corporal punishment.  I put my foot down on spanking and it's been great, but she can't kick the habit of yelling, bullying, etc.  My son is 9 years old and while she is not often in that state of mind, she does occasionally use bullying as what she considers a tool for teaching and discipline, at least when I'm not around.

 

Anyway, he doesn't experience anything like that from me, ever.  I've never threatened him or raised my voice to him or made him feel threatened.  I don't know what happened yesterday, but I came home from work and was working on something that required a lot of my attention, and there was a lot going around in the background.  So I shouted 'BE QUIET!' without really thinking about it.

 

Nothing really happened at first.  He ran into his room and got a book, and ran back out to sit on the couch near where I was working.  I was wrapping up what I was doing and wasn't really paying attention.  I hear my wife say 'what's wrong?' to him, and that's when I realized he was crying.  Not just crying, but he was red faced, ready to start squalling, tears just pouring down his face.

 

I immediately knew why, it was because I had shouted and he'd never experienced me shouting at him before, and the reason I'm pointing this out is because he does not act this way when my wife shouts at him.  With her, he is defiant.  He stands up for himself, and what he thinks is right.  However, coming from me....I completely devastated him.  I don't think I've ever felt like such a horrible person in my entire life.  He and I have an amazing bond.  He trusts me, he values my opinion, and what I think of him means everything to him.  He always asks what I think about things before he makes up his mind.  For example, he's decided to start investing his allowance instead of simply saving it and he's now coming to the gym with me instead of playing video games.  If I ever feel his behavior needs correction I simply tell him what I think and why I think it, and 9 times out of 10 that's enough.

 

So what I'm getting at here is that this is, I think, the sort of natural bond parents and children should have.  When you resort to hitting, bullying, aggression, even 'mildly' as so many people I know put it, what you're doing is taking this fragile bond and stomping on it.  I still feel absolutely horrible for what I did though to him it's already water under the bridge.

 

So I hope some of you find some value in this.  It's kind of a unique perspective in that we can see a very stark contrast in his reaction to myself and my wife when confronted with the same behavior based entirely on our past relationships with him.

 

Posting this was inspired by this video:

 

 

For what it's worth, I've noticed similar behaviors in my friends' children.  The families we know that are big on corporal punishment have the most difficult (and I have to say, obnoxious) children.

[dsayers]

My wife is asian, and along with that comes a culture that is very keen on corporal punishment.  I put my foot down on spanking and it's been great, but she can't kick the habit of yelling, bullying, etc.  My son is 9 years old and while she is not often in that state of mind, she does occasionally use bullying as what she considers a tool for teaching and discipline, at least when I'm not around.

 

Anyway, he doesn't experience anything like that from me, ever.

 

Yes he does. From the past: Everything she does to him, she can only do because you chose her to be his mother. From the present: Everything she does to him, you do not stop. You don't get credit for "putting your foot down" on spanking because if it's not with regards to aggression in general, it's an unprincipled conclusion and therefore erroneous. From the future: You make excuses for her based on her culture and lie even to yourself when you say "can't kick the habit" as if it's minor or that makes it okay.

 

I still feel absolutely horrible for what I did though to him it's already water under the bridge.

 

How do you know? My parents were only married for the first few years of my life. I had repressed the memories of my father being aggressive towards my mother. Once they were divorced, I saw him so infrequently that he was able to put on his "I'm a cheerful person" face almost always. Meanwhile, my mother, who indeed had been incredibly nurturing those first few years, began treating me as if I was a blemish. My perception was so warped, and to such a contrast, that I became misogynistic. It caused untold levels of destruction in my life as I was unable to develop healthy relationships with women and those I thought I had, I destroyed quite efficiently. Even as I type this today, after extensive reprogramming, I still don't treat females the same way I treat males.

 

The day is coming when your son will realize what an awful person his mother is. The day may come when he understands how that was your fault too. In the meantime, you're telling a story of very high contrast in parental personalities. Even if it is water under the bridge, I find it extremely disconcerting how comfortable, and even self-congratulatory your story comes across as. YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPOSE A 9 YEAR OLD TO ANY OF THE THINGS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

 

[jpahmad]

Thanks for the story.  I'm going to share this with my wife.

[A__]

Dsayers raises a lot of important points and questions and offered some great personal feedback.

 

Also, aren't your wife's actions as important as yours? As long as you two have conflict, your son will be conflicted.  I hope you are working on communicating with your wife about peaceful parenting.

[J. D. Stembal]

I never have enough plus reps left for dsayers! I'll get you next time. You are extremely courageous and honest. I deeply appreciate it.

 

I want to relate a personal story for Xtort that he might find useful.

 

My dad remarried an Asian woman, so I have a brother and a sister from his second marriage. My brother is your son's age. I went for a visit this spring where I witnessed his wife belting my brother for not going to bed by a certain time. I intervened and she left the room. I didn't know what to say so I hugged them and let them go to sleep. I told my dad what I saw, and I told him it had to stop or else I was calling child services. It's so appropriate that ultimatums are the chosen language of the abused and abusive. He made all sorts of excuses for his wife, invoking cultural relativism and minimizing it.

 

Fast forward some months, supposedly she has stopped hitting or belting. However, she is yelling a lot more, bullying, and still physically dominating her children (dragging them around when they won't go somewhere). Does this sound familiar? She also threatened to leave the country to take my six year old sister back to Thailand. My father is still making excuses for her. The current excuse is, "She's completely crazy," as if that was an plausible answer for her actions - or his!

 

The bottom line is that you should feel horrible. That is an honest emotion. You need to be angry at yourself, angry at your wife, and angry at your parental judgement. It will be humbling for sure, but you can make progress

[alwazqestion]

I didn't see any mention of an apology or making amends for yelling at your son. How have you shown in words and actions your remorse? You were in the wrong, and he should know and see that. Remember the 10-1 ration of positive experiences needed to counter one negative experience, which goes beyond this one traumatic event. You and your wife have 9 years of negative experiences to make up for. Dsayers is right, you are also responsible for your wife's actions, and it is essential for your son's well being that you create a peaceful environment for him. Have you looked into any family therapy? It sounds like your family would stand to benefit from it.

[Tworsley]

Your wife and you are one in the same, I feel. I believe that its hard for a child to say "my mommy is bad" and "my mommy is bad". I say that because I felt like you were trying to distinguish you and your wife. When two parents have two different parental styles that just creates conflict within the child. He will always remember how you made him feel. Did you apologize? if so how? If I were you I would not stand for my wife's parenting style. I would have a very long conversation with her about my peaceful parenting techniques until she gets it, even if it take  a month of dialogue on this issue. Show her the statistics from bomb in the brain series. I am happy that you feel terrible for yelling though, That's a good thing. I'm curious, why yell now though? Have you not worked on projects before and simply muted the noise in the background?

[Mike Larson]

Xtort,

 

Thanks for sharing. Good for you for encouraging your wife down the path of peaceful parenting. I'm sure it has not been an easy task for you to lead her away from some of her more destructive tendencies. It must be very frustrating for you at times. I imagine it would be much easier for you to be fully consistent with your parenting approach if both you and your wife were committed to that standard. It is very difficult to be in a situation where you and your wife diverge on such a core issue.

I think that the empirical evidence of the way your son responds to you, compared to how he responds to your wife, is entirely expected and it provides strong evidence for the practical value (although the moral justification aught to be sufficient) of peaceful parenting. It makes me wonder why your wife can't see the value in it. Perhaps she is just (consciously or subconsciously) refusing to deal with cultural and familial baggage that is preventing her progress. In any case, I hope that you can figure out some way of helping her to continue to move toward a more gentle and respectful way of interacting with your son. Sounds like you are on the right track.

[Blackfish64]

My wife is Thai. I don't tolerate anything from her.  She tried some emotional tuff stuff with my fifteen year old daughter, but my daughter rejected all of it.  I did, too.  I simply told her that's not how things are done around here, get used to it.  She got used to it.  "There is no hitting or yelling and that's all there is to it.  If you want to hit and yell, expect to be yelled at and hit back--and then asked to leave--forever.  I don't hit or yell at the child and the child is not going to hit or yell at me, or you, or anyone else.  Whatever happens, that stuff just don't go around here."

 

"But she don't do things the way I want!"  

 

"Boo-hoo!  You don't do things the way I want most of the time.  Do I yell at you and hit you over it?"  Silence.  

 

"But I'm the parent!"

 

"You're not the parent.  I'm the parent, her mother is the parent.  Her parents are divorced.  You are the outsider here.  Just like I am the outsider when I am in Thailand with you.  Do you hear me telling you how to raise your son?  Do you hear me trying to tell him what to do or trying to hit or yell at him?" 

 

"My son perfect.  No need to do anything to him."  

 

"Of course, we'd all be perfect, just like you and your son, if only we all had mom and dad, and step-dad, and auntie and uncle kissing his butt, giving him money to save and spending our own money for whatever he else he wants, a master's degree, a place to live, a business to run, a bright future -- yes, we'd all be perfect, just like him, if that were the case.  I'd get in line and be a good boy all the time, too, if my mommy slept in the same room with me past the age of eighteen and told me what to do every minute of every day.  I'd either be perfect--or I'd find me a steel shovel and bludgeon your overbearing ass with it, which I am surprised he hasn't done so already.  When's the last time you and yours did any of that for my daughter?  Where were you when she was pushing herself through college?  Not one of you so much as even sent her a card and a congratulations.  Everything she's done, she's done completely on her own, with bare minimal help from me, and absolutely zero help from her mother or you and your family.  If I didn't have to lift a finger to my future or do jack-shit in support of myself I would be perfect, too.  Wouldn't we all?  The great thing about your son is that he is a grateful individual and realizes that he has it better than most and works his ass off in school to actually make something of himself.  He's obviously very grateful for all he has been given and does not take it for granted.  As for you, I don't see a grateful bone in your body for all that you have and all the wonderful people in your life and who love and look out for you.  I have to wonder what happened to you in your life that makes you so high and mighty and so miserable at the same time that you feel the need to yell and smack others around.  You say you're the parent.  Maybe it's time you started acting like one.  Wake up.  The child is fifteen years old, she's known you for a year, you're from another culture.  Do you expect her to drop her whole life behind her all of a sudden and get in line and do whatever your whim wants?  You act like an overgrown, spoiled child around the child.  Sometimes I look at the two of you together and I have to wonder which is the child.  It's stupid.  There's no reason to be rude.  No reason at all.  She's not going to do things the way you want, she doesn't have to, and I am not going to support you trying to make her.  I think you just need to take it easy with the child and be done with it.  Leave her alone."

 

I spanked my daughter twice when she was little.  It was a complete waste of time.  I never did it again.  Anyway, she's doing extremely well now.  She was a holy hellion for a couple of years as a teenager.  Even then I didn't so much as raise my voice to her.  She got past it.  She moved on.  We all did.      

 

Whenever I lost it and yelled, I simply gave a sincere apology when I was ready -- and meant it -- and let them have their honest say in the matter before we moved on.  No bullshit.  No victims.  No scapegoats.  No one left out.  Compassion. 

 

In the past, I was always quick to be angry.  My daughter used to tell me, "Dad, you know it's a lot easier to love than it is to hate." 

 

"Yeah, I know, you're right." 

 

She was always able to forgive me easily, following a sincere apology and explanation for my behavior and actions.  I was not always able to forgive myself.  That's what made it hardest.  Glad that's all changed now. 

[dsayers]

She tried some emotional tuff stuff with my fifteen year old daughter...  I simply told her that's not how things are done around here, get used to it.

 

But if your way of handling it is to try some emotional tuff stuff, then that IS the way things are done around there, no? Don't get me wrong, forcibly protecting your daughter from aggression is justified. But once the threat is over, why wouldn't you talk to your wife like an equal? "Outsider" is a very provocative term and one I don't think should be used towards somebody you love. Also, isn't this the sort of thing that should be identified and agreed upon BEFORE getting married?

 

Lastly, I just wanted to say that I disagree with her not being a parent. You have a "child" (especially one that lives with you), if you choose to remarry, that person is now a parent also. At 15 years old, the parenting's pretty much done anyways, so perhaps a bit of a moot point. I just wanted to emphasize the error in isolating your wife as well as the error in exposing your 15 year old to somebody that doesn't already accept property rights and the personhood of "children." You won't be able to make a difference by inflicting this conclusion upon your wife, nor will it be as effective coming after the fact instead of being an integral part of the proverbial price of admission.

[Blackfish64]

The cultures are so dramatically different so as to be completely incompatible. Asking my daughter to conform to my wife's wishes, which she clearly did not understand and clearly resented, just wasn't going to work.

 

Yes, I was tough and requested wife stay out of it. It was the only way to get along. Sometimes we have to do things we don't like. I wish the two could have gotten along, but it just wasn't happening.

[dsayers]

Sometimes we have to do things we don't like.

 

Yeah, if my tire pops, I have to pull over, get dirty, and change it out. That sucks. I totally accept that sometimes we have to do things we don't like. I don't see how this relates to what's being discussed. Unlike a tire popping, who you marry should be as far away from being accidental as possible. Why would you marry somebody that couldn't "get along" with your daughter? Wouldn't that be the biggest deal breaker possible?

 

This still doesn't address why the topic of aggression would be a command from you instead of a conversation. Like I said, I cannot imagine falling in love with or marrying somebody that had the capacity for aggression. In the event that I did make such a mistake, the only way to remedy the situation would be through lovingly working together. "Don't be aggressive!" is itself aggressive, no?

[Blackfish64]

  Thank you, for your incredibly vigorous emphasis on nearly every point I have made. 

[dsayers]

Is the point that you are making that the same resistance to self-knowledge that allowed for you to choose an unsuitable mate (twice) is motivating you to not consider or answer the questions being asked of you? Do you accept your own capacity for error?

[Blackfish64]

Thanks, again, for your support and your, once again, even further strengthening my argument.  I need say nothing further on that. 

 

While it is clear you do not agree with me, nor take an interest in my lifestyle or philosophy, you haven't given us your insight on the original post, the topic of this thread.  If you don't mind, what do you think of xtorts post?  Just curious.   

[CallMeViolet]

 I don't talk to either of my parents because of their mistreatment. If you let your wife mistreat him he might do the same... Trust me, silent crying means he was probably scared; scared you were gonna be just like his mother towards him. You need to apologize, and you need to get him away from his abusive mother. Then you need to do everything in your power to teach him what happened to him wasn't okay,

[Spenc]

Just wondering what level of communication you and your wife have with your son about her efforts to change.  You mentioned that your situation was water under the bridge now.  I'll assume you sat down and apologized and discussed it in order for this to be the case.  But what about your wife?  You say she has a "habit" of yelling, bullying behaviour.  Does she apologize?  Does she encourage your son, who is old enough to understand and participate, to point out when her behaviour veers toward bullying?  And does she then discuss it, apologize and reaffirm her commitment to break the habit?

 

A lot of callers talk about moms who never hit them, but they had a proxy bully.  "Just wait til your father gets home and hears about this!"  Obviously, children can figure out that the mother is an accomplice to the father's abuse, if not the orchestrator.  So this leads me to wonder about the opnness about your wife's efforts to improve her behaviour.  If you just say to your son, "Hey, I'm not like that, and I tell her not to do that stuff" but then she doesn't fix her methods, doesn't provide evidence of the types of exercises that would actually help her accomplish that, and doesn't offer him the opportunity to correct her behaviour and participate.....well, then you're kind of an accomplice. 

 

It's like if you had a dog that kept attacking him.  You call the dog bad and pull it off him, but then you leave the dog alone with him other times.  You put the dog in obedience school, but the son may not be aware you have done this.  You continually correct the dog and apologize for his behaviour, but these seem like empty apologies because he isn't aware that the dog is being trained to improve its behaviour, and he isn't being welcomed into the process so that he can provide relevant feedback.  I hope that your wife is actively working on her behaviour, and that your son is included in that, and that he understands you are no accomplice, but rather a catalyst for improvement.

[Luirru]

I know the guilt that comes with this, I am sorry to hear about it. I am working on being better myself, all I can say is keep working at it and do better. I am sure you are tho, the fact you realized what happened is a good first step