Initiation

[Josh F]

My girlfriend's sister has two kids, twin boys.  They're turning 12 soon and she asked everyone in the family to write them a letter.  She created this kind of initiation ceremony, not religious, just based on her family.  I think it is really clever and reflected a video I watched recently.

 

The idea was that there is a value to initiation ceremonies, things like Bar Mitzvahs, outside of their religious context.  And that through initiation, kids feel a sense of pride and accomplishment in their transition from childhood to adulthood.  The idea, in this case, is that the family sends them letters with fond memories, advice, praise, etc. as they go to the next level of their education.  

 

I was raised Jewish (barely) and one of the few times I can remember my Dad giving me a heartfelt compliment was during my whatever-you-call-it ceremony at my bar mitzvah.  I also remember as a kid turning 10 years old, I got a sit down and told that I had a list of new responsibilities and a list of new freedoms, amongst them was to ride my bike around the neighborhood unsupervised.  

 

Historically, the majority of cultures have ceremonies which initiate a kid into adulthood.  

 

 

What do you guys think?  Any value to this?

[dsayers]

I would say no, but only because it being tied to the anniversary of being born is arbitrary. If they were peacefully parented, treated as equals, and win-win negotiation was modeled for them, then they were on the next level with regards to everything other than sexuality long before they turn 12.

[Josh F]

This isn't about their 12th birthday, it is about them going to the next level of education, in this context. I think you're right that putting it at a certain age or certain date is arbitrary, but if it corresponds with real life mile stones like graduation or maybe getting a job?  

 

Dont think I made that clear, so my bad.

[Bradford26]

I think this is great! Getting encouragement from family and friends as they pass from one phase to another may make them proud of their accomplishment, reinforce their goals and dreams, and give them extra enthusiasm for the next phase. 

 

I would say no, but only because it being tied to the anniversary of being born is arbitrary. If they were peacefully parented, treated as equals, and win-win negotiation was modeled for them, then they were on the next level with regards to everything other than sexuality long before they turn 12.

 

Celebrations that mark the passage of time may have different levels of importance to different people, but are not arbitrary. A big achievement or having a child is a great reason to celebrate, and it seems like it would be very important to mark the passage of time since those events. Wedding anniversaries are the same way. Why wouldn't you periodically celebrate something so great that happened? Another example might be to keep track of years since you were cured of cancer. I know you're just celebrating things 365 days apart from eachother, but how else could you do it?

[dsayers]

Why wouldn't you periodically celebrate something so great that happened?

 

Why should something so wonderful only be celebrated periodically? Why is that period 365 days? I would argue that celebrating that you love your wife because the Earth is in the same position relative to the sun as it was when you got married is the definition of arbitrary

 

Not trying to pee on anybody's parade. Even before philosophy and self-knowledge revealed the absurdity of traditions such as culture, nationalism, religion, tribalism, etc I thought that holidays sort of defeated their own purpose. Like the cancer patient you mentioned. I'd wager they view every single day as worth celebrating for being alive, not just the anniversary of when their mother's uterus contracted.

[cynicist]

I think reassurance from parents in this area is great, and the idea of a ceremony sounds fun. Seems no different than a celebration you might have after getting a new job, learning to drive, or whatever other important milestone comes up.

[Bradford26]

Why should something so wonderful only be celebrated periodically? Why is that period 365 days? I would argue that celebrating that you love your wife because the Earth is in the same position relative to the sun as it was when you got married is the definition of arbitrary

 

Not trying to pee on anybody's parade. Even before philosophy and self-knowledge revealed the absurdity of traditions such as culture, nationalism, religion, tribalism, etc I thought that holidays sort of defeated their own purpose. Like the cancer patient you mentioned. I'd wager they view every single day as worth celebrating for being alive, not just the anniversary of when their mother's uterus contracted.

 

These are great questions. Why should something be celebrated periodically? With anything worth celebrating, it's important to celebrate in a frequency and intensity appropriate for the event. Similarly, it's important not to over or under celebrate. A very large gift makes sense a few times a year, while smaller gifts like cards, fancy nights out or flowers can maintain their effect if they are more frequent. However, large fancy gifts, or extravagant nights out every day would quickly lose their effect and become meaningless.

 

I think I understand your malice toward holidays. For example, when Valentines day rolls around, men are essentially forced to do something to maintain the status quo in their relationships. If they don't comply with the rules of the holiday, things get worse in their relationship. This has always seemed somewhat coercive to me.

 

However; the activities that Josh was talking about are not coercive, bullying, or negative in any other way. In the example, it is important to explain that the celebration is not what makes the children adults, or that they have accomplished any great task simply by being alive (Although, that accomplishment might warrant a cake and balloons every, say, 365 days or so  ).

 

It can't be bad to celebrate genuine accomplishments with encouragement and kindness. 

[dsayers]

It can't be bad to celebrate genuine accomplishments with encouragement and kindness. 

 

How do you know? What if such things incentivized a young person to do things for the encouragements of others instead of for the increase in their own ability to survive and more efficiently? What happens when they grow up and those encouragements become fewer and farther apart?

 

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I do think that it's in opposition of teaching rational thought. I also think it's something that IS overdone today and for the nonsensical reason of tradition.

[Bradford26]

How do you know? What if such things incentivized a young person to do things for the encouragements of others instead of for the increase in their own ability to survive and more efficiently? What happens when they grow up and those encouragements become fewer and farther apart?

 

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I do think that it's in opposition of teaching rational thought. I also think it's something that IS overdone today and for the nonsensical reason of tradition.

 

Great point. How and when can external praise replace an internal goal mechanism? If the child has learned that the parents only respond to "me plus," or the child plus an accomplishment, then they are more likely to achieve solely for the praise. Unconditional love from the parents would definitely help temper this possibility.

 

I don't think it's rational to never celebrate or say "good job" to someone who achieves. We shouldn't be expected to be completely self-reliant in this regard. Humans are social. Even the anti-social ones benefit from encouragement. Being involved with a group that builds each other up can be a very powerful force in a person's life.

[Josh F]

How do you know? What if such things incentivized a young person to do things for the encouragements of others instead of for the increase in their own ability to survive and more efficiently? What happens when they grow up and those encouragements become fewer and farther apart?

 

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I do think that it's in opposition of teaching rational thought. I also think it's something that IS overdone today and for the nonsensical reason of tradition.

Why is arbitrary irrational?  The world is not only logic, right?  Aesthetics comprise a large part, not only of philosophy, but our daily lives.  Culture, fashion, art, entertainment, creativity, self expression, parties, dances, jokes, etc.  

 

Also I don't think celebrating milestones or accomplishments is arbitrary at all.  Having a bar mitzvah when you're 13 might be arbitrary as a year, but the idea that at this date the kid becomes responsible for their own ethics and accountable for their own actions seems common throughout cultures.  In the US, the age is arbitrarily 18, and latino cultures it is 15.  Unlike turning 18 in the US though, children in these ceremonies are more clearly explained their rights and responsibilities. 

 

But initiation happens at different ages for different kids for different things, certainly.  I'm not bogged down by the traditional or nostalgic approach to these ceremonies, only the concept.

 

Don't want to always throw the baby out with the bath water.  Just because Jesus didn't exist doesn't mean the commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill is a bad idea.  

[dsayers]

Why is arbitrary irrational?

 

I see the onus as being the other way around. If we were married and WE chose to celebrate that fact at specified intervals in specified ways, that's where aesthetics comes in. If instead we chose to do that same thing because that's what everybody else does, that is not a rational conclusion. It's pretty harmless, so I'm not suggesting that not engaging in arbitrary celebrations is binding upon others. I just think there's better ways of enjoying one another than perpetuating superstitions of the past.

 

For what it's worth, I used to be very rituatlistic with regards to my birthday. Never worked on my birthday, vegged to the max. It was a me day because growing up, there was almost nothing ME about my life. Once I began to study philosophy and pursue self-knowledge, the desire to celebrate my birthday disappeared almost completely even though I think there's never been a better time to celebrate who I am and have become despite the barriers I had to overcome to do so.

[Josh F]

I see the onus as being the other way around. If we were married and WE chose to celebrate that fact at specified intervals in specified ways, that's where aesthetics comes in. If instead we chose to do that same thing because that's what everybody else does, that is not a rational conclusion. It's pretty harmless, so I'm not suggesting that not engaging in arbitrary celebrations is binding upon others. I just think there's better ways of enjoying one another than perpetuating superstitions of the past.

 

For what it's worth, I used to be very rituatlistic with regards to my birthday. Never worked on my birthday, vegged to the max. It was a me day because growing up, there was almost nothing ME about my life. Once I began to study philosophy and pursue self-knowledge, the desire to celebrate my birthday disappeared almost completely even though I think there's never been a better time to celebrate who I am and have become despite the barriers I had to overcome to do so.

I mean look, I completely understand your points.  I'm pretty similarly minded when it comes to shit like Fathers Day and Valentine's Day.  I'm not talking about past superstitions though, I'm talking about creating your own initiations, rituals, ceremonies, etc.  We do it all the time, in general.  With kids, parents sometimes have a 'going to bed' ritual where teeth get brushed, clothes changed, reading a book or whatever.  I've read some information about that kind of consistency being especially good for a young and developing mind.  

 

I've been an atheist since like... almost forever.  I don't think it is healthy to interject superstition into anything, even innocuous stuff like saying "Salud" when someone sneezes (as they say where I live) or holding your breath in a car while you drive through a tunnel.  Its all kind of goofy and meaningless.  However, what I'm really getting at here is something different:

 

Designing and celebrating markers of achievement.  Cultures do it universally, though the ceremony is always different they all do it.  There is a reason, a logic, behind the concept even if it is so often warped by religion and greeting card companies.  I think it is a positive way of inculcating someone into maturity, unlike the average American experience which I think is often stressful for people.  You're 18, here's a cigarette some porn, now get a job.  It doesn't feel like "wow I did it" to many people, instead they're consumed with dread, frozen in procrastination, unclear of their expectations or their larger roll within society.  Its disorienting.  

[Maciej Bembnista]

"There are no unchosen (positive) obligations".

 

In my opinion rituals are wrong, are the way to perform and harden tribal thinking. Magical thinking.

The certainly played a important role in times, when we had no reproducible rational thinking as a species- emotional "bonding" with a tribe.

Today they probably fill the hole in our heart through activating some buttons left there by our abusers. That would be a reason, why we are so susceptible to them.

If I love/like someone, then I can decide to express it in a way I like or not to express it. If I express my admiration, than I can own some positive feelings (about me, I have a satisfaction). And I can connect.

If it is in the context of a ritual, I am a part of a crowd led by some sort of a leader. I am not free- if I choose not to take a part O can hurt someone I like (it´s a trap, something like welfare state- if you dont´t agree with taxation, you hate the poor  ).

It means, I´m not free!!!

 

Thus I do not agree, that rituals are "pretty harmless"- they support wrong methodology, wrong way of thinking, they inhibit a formation of the new species- Homo philosophicus! In my opinion.

 

PS. some positive/nice of them (like above) are merely "steps in the right direction" ( I thought about it and finally I do agree with dsayers, that " `steps in the right direction` is a myth perpetrated by the immoral to trick good people into supporting immorality.")

[Josh F]

I'm concerned that we're talking about different things.  

 

This isn't an advocacy of cultural rituals.  Ritual's can be "Taco Tuesday" in one family and "Sunday Night is Game Night" within another family.  Rituals can be that you and your friends grab a beer together every Friday after work.  They can also be more valuable, like the above mentioned bed time ritual, or annually celebrating an event like your marriage.  There is nothing irrational about it and nothing violent about it.

 

If it is in the context of a ritual, I am a part of a crowd led by some sort of a leader. I am not free- if I choose not to take a part O can hurt someone I like (it´s a trap, something like welfare state- if you dont´t agree with taxation, you hate the poor  ).

It means, I´m not free!!!

 

So lets use one of my examples and see if argument matches.  You and your buddies, every Friday night, go out for a beer together.  There is no leader, it is mutual.  There is no chance of hurting someone (unless you hit them on the head with the beer bottle).  You can 'get out of it' whenever you want without sacrificing your friendships.  This is why I don't think we're talking about the same thing here.