karin Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 I think that if evolution created this life, it could also create something for afterwards, even if it's only re-incarnation. If you don't need god for this life, why is he/she/it necessary to create an afterlife to go to? Or so it seems to me.
ParaSait Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 That doesn't make sense. Evolution is just an effect of matter, it can't break the laws of the material world. Can you clarify what you mean?
TheRobin Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 I second the notion of clarfying what you mean here a little, but just to respond to the question in the title. There's no "no god" theory. There is a "god theory" which can be shown to be by definition self-contradictory, so we know it's false. The afterlife, isn't by definition impossible, however there is absolutely no evidence for it. (I know there's lots of people claiming otherwise, but I haven't found an experiment that was meant to proof the afterlife that didn't have signifacant flaws in its design or execution). So sure, there could be an alternative realm of matter and energy (albeit not exactly identical to what we call matter at least) and sure, it could be that our brain patterns get uploaed into a new body after death, but that makes about as much sense as saying there might be some invisible alien spaceship hovering around earth that uploads our brain patterns into a virtual reality network after we die. Sure it's probably hypothetically possible, but as long as there's no evidence it would be completely insane to assume it's true. Reincarnation makes even less sense as that would require brain patterns to be implanted into a new born (or fetus), but I haven't met a baby that had capacities like a grown old man or memories like one, so I think it's safe to say that this idea is disproven. I think the more relevant question might be, why is that important to you?
Wuzzums Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 Speaking by chances alone, there's a better chance that there is an afterlife than there is not, regardless of the existence of god. Given that intelligent life can come into being, and that intelligent life is able to simulate other intelligent life in a simulated world, then it can also create an afterlife for the AI living in the simulation if it so chooses. And given that the simulated intelligence has every bit the capability to simulate their own intelligence, a simulation within a simulation ad infinitum, then there are vastly more simulated realities than real ones. By the same logic there's a better chance of there being a god, albeit a simulated one. It all makes for a great sci-fi plot: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139809/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_47 And yes, I just spoiled that whole movie.
NotDarkYet Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 Why do you think consciousness can exist without the brain that created it? The burden of proof is not on me.
TheRobin Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 @Wuzzums: I don't think that argument is necessarily true. In order for anyone to bother creating (and even more: maintaining) this simulation there would need to be a strong incentive, as that qould require a lot of energy and work. So I don't really think there are more simulations really.Also the simulation within a simulation arguments assumes that there's an infinite storage space on the oringial simulation (as all the data needs to be stored there and if you start adding simulation on top of simulation you'd get a very large number of data at some point). Basically, we can't be more accurate than a quantum, as that is the smallest unit, but wihtin a created simulation the smallest unit needs to be larger than that, so at some point you're running out of space (even assuming anyone would actually care to make these simulations)
karin Posted October 27, 2014 Author Posted October 27, 2014 I wasn't sure how to frame the question very well. it's just thots that I've had. I came from a fundamental religion (mormonism) to realizing that was all shit, to realizing christianity is also a bunch of bunk (which was always in the back of my mind but i thot that one day god would just explain it all to me in a way that it made sense.) So i've believed in an afterlife my whole life. And maybe the reason why i'm curious about it is that i have OCD, and had it really badly esp. after my daughter's birth. I've spent the last 7 years battling, conquering it mostly and learning to live with it in my life. So it would be nice to have a perfect life to look forward to . Maybe i'm just curious about what a 'perfect' person is like, knowing we humans aren't perfect. Maybe i'm just having a harder time letting go of my childhood beliefs. I'm not asking anyone to 'prove' anything. I just notice that people who believe in a god believe in an afterlife- that hinges on how good you were in this life,for how 'good' the afterlife is. And if those who don't believe in a god, also say 'no' to afterlife. I don't see how the 2 are 100% related, unless you believe god creates souls. Thus if you don't believe in god, you don't believe in souls anymore , thus no afterlife for a soul to go to. My premise is why does the one have to relate to the other? Life is here. We are more than our brains or thoughts ( see mindfulness- the concept of listening to but not responding to every thought). So is there a possibility (or probability) that there is a place that 'you' go when your body dies? Can i be an atheist and still believe that consciousness is not snuffed out at death of the body. I realize i can believe whatever i want, but is there any arguement already around that makes sense?
Josh F Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 There is no proof of an afterlife, there is no proof of god. Thats just all there is to it. You can think there is an afterlife all day long, but anyone saying that it exist is lying to you, they certainly don't know it to be true.
ParaSait Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 My premise is why does the one have to relate to the other? Life is here. We are more than our brains or thoughts ( see mindfulness- the concept of listening to but not responding to every thought). So is there a possibility (or probability) that there is a place that 'you' go when your body dies? Can i be an atheist and still believe that consciousness is not snuffed out at death of the body. I realize i can believe whatever i want, but is there any arguement already around that makes sense? Our mind and person consists of nothing more than our brain's content. Your identity, that which makes you "you", is in essence the sum of all your memories. Your memories exist entirely inside of your brain. When you die, your brain stops functioning, and your memories are gone. If a person gets born with no memories of any past life whatsoever, then in what sense is it reincarnation? If it turns out that someone does have memories of another person who was real in the past, then we're getting somewhere. We're getting something tangible and testable. But until then, there is no reason other than wishful thinking to believe that that's actually true.
dsayers Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 it would be nice to have a perfect life to look forward to Doesn't this strike you as wishful thinking? I noticed that you said you had OCD, that you came from religion. As opposed to "my parents abused me to the point of me having to do things a certain way out of fear" or "my parents inflicted unsubstantiated conclusions upon me." I point this out because you mentioned struggling and coping with, but this seems to be a fundamental step in doing so. You're looking forward to the possibility of a perfect life when you have the opportunity for having a much improved life simply by calling things by their proper names. Anyways, I have 2 problems with the possibility of afterlife. First, baked right into the name, is AFTER life. There wasn't your life before your life, there's no reason to logically expect that there could be life after life. Secondly, life is an emergent property of matter and energy. I think the reason why a deity and afterlife go hand in hand is because they're both incredible works of fiction. 1
luxfelix Posted October 28, 2014 Posted October 28, 2014 I recognize that the first law of thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but it's unclear whether that applies to consciousness.
Sal9000 Posted October 28, 2014 Posted October 28, 2014 Also the simulation within a simulation arguments assumes that there's an infinite storage space on the oringial simulation (as all the data needs to be stored there and if you start adding simulation on top of simulation you'd get a very large number of data at some point). The simulation thought experiment seems a bit extreme, but Nick Bostrom made some interesting remarks, which make sense to me. Consider this: You are a NPC in World of Warcraft. By a magical trick you become somewhat intelligent. Suddenly you have a suspicion. What if World of Warcraft is a simulation? However, this can't be true, since you would need another World of Warcraft universe to simulate your own universe. You relax a bittle and go to the nearest tavern to talk to the hot elven.
TheRobin Posted October 28, 2014 Posted October 28, 2014 Well, I certainly agree that god and afterlife aren't necessarily correlated. I grew up in Switzerland as a complete atheist and surrounded by mostly atheists and I still beliefed in an afterlife and was fascinated by the idea and read books about it etc. Though, in my opinion, these sorts of escape fantasies are usually correlated to a shitty childhood and being surrounded by jerks and or abusers that you can't escape when you're young and dependant.
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