How are piercings, tattoos, dyed hair, and heavy make up a sign of trauma?

[MysterionMuffles]

How can these attributes be indicators as signs of trauma and why? I never understood the reasoning behind it...perhaps because I've never really heard or read the syllogism on it.

[PatrickC]

Well, I don't know of any particular studies around the topic. But inflicting pain on oneself for decoration doesn't sound like the kind of thing a healthy person does to themselves. From a psychological perspective it's like literally wearing your trauma on your sleeve for all to see. Most healthy people are generally not going to be drawn to these types of people.

 

Of course heavy makeup is not painful to apply, but it's still a disguise of some sort. But like all these issues there is nothing inherently immoral about it. It's just more likely to attract all the wrong kinds of people to you.

[Lars]

Me plus piercings, tattoos, dyed hair and heavy make up.

[TheRobin]

Well there seems to be some empirical evidence that correlates tatoos and body art with higher drug abuse and crime rates and higher promuscuity. I don't think there's a sllogism for that though.

On the top of my head, I'd say maybe because, if something is that important to you that you want everyone to see it engraved on your body, then that might be an indicator of not being listened to a lot from the people who claim to care about you, hence the try to "write it down for others to see" cause speaking it would either get you attacked or ignored.

[Alan C.]

Self-erasure.

Asserting control.

Attention-seeking.

[tasmlab]

Purely my opinion, but excessive tattooing signals to me a certain kind of recklessness or disdain for the self.  Like you don't care how you may be different in 10 years.

[TomK]

Given the spoken/written word is the most effect means of communicating with other people, expressing yourself through other, inherently less effective mediums (such as statements through physical appearance) suggests problems with communication (fear, stunted development, etc), as you are avoiding genuine connections, or incapable of forming them. 

 

You are also externalising your identity, "this is me, out here, no need to look any further", which suggests you may be avoiding internal dialogue and again, genuine connection with other people.

 

Also, I guess there is a tribal element to it, in the sense you are often conforming to existing group identities (tattoo culture, etc). And when people are drawn to such vacuous tribal identities, it's usually because they lack parental connections, and have a general weakness of personality.

[cynicist]

As Lars suggested, it is the me+ syndrome. You are not interesting or unique enough as an individual and must compensate for that with external flair. Another way to look at it is that it's a way to manipulate people in order to distract them from looking too closely at you because you don't have anything positive to offer. So at best it's insecurity and at worst it's a trap. My rule of thumb is the more of that I see on a person the more dangerous they are. (Stefan refers to them as adornments)

 

There was a really good podcast Stefan did about this guy with a large tattoo on his chest and I think a girl with colored hair but I can't remember which it was off the top of my head. Stefan had this really interesting theory that tattoos were a way of externalizing trauma, like I can't deal with this thing in my head but it has to exist somewhere... similar to the idea of cutting yourself with a razor being a release from mental anguish as well as a physical manifestation of that internal pain. If I find it I'll come back.

 

Stefan does go into some detail on it in podcast 874 @ 0:41:05

[dsayers]

I agree that trauma is a requisite for self-mutilation. However, I think some of the absolute assessments in this thread fail to account for momentum and/or culture.

 

For example, we live in a culture where women shave their legs and armpits and wear makeup. Even women of substance, who have no reason to incite the passions in a potential mate do these things for conformity's sake. Many people dress nice who may in fact be people of substance simply because they are aware of how they land for other people and want to not be off-putting.

 

While it is true that we are civilized enough to understand that self-knowledge and rational thought are far more valuable, we cannot escape the fact that we are genetically programmed to seek out and/or establish that which we want by way of our eyes.

 

What about people who lose a limb? They could function as such. Are they superficial for adorning their body with an artificial limb?

 

I stand by my opening statement. Just thought a little counterpoint for perspective's sake was in order.

[engardeknave]

Idiosyncrasy as virtue is the hallmark of nihilism. And it's incredibly superficial--because when you're operating without any consistent conceptual faculty, your basis of evaluation is perceptual data. It's amazing how important tattoos are under such circumstances.

[MysterionMuffles]

Wow I love all the responses so far. I'm just gonna keep an open mind to see what other perspectives there are on it before I ask further questions or make any comments. But in the meantime:

 

[MMX2010]

How can these attributes be indicators as signs of trauma and why? I never understood the reasoning behind it...perhaps because I've never really heard or read the syllogism on it.

 

This article by Matt Forney isn't scientific, but it touched off a firestorm of angry, senseless criticism. 

 

http://www.returnofkings.com/45334/5-reasons-why-girls-with-tattoos-andor-piercings-are-broken

 

 

 

 

This article by Dr. Caveman is scientific. 

 

http://www.returnofkings.com/45944/science-confirms-tattooed-women-are-indeed-broken

[Bipedal Primate]

I think altering one's appearance 'dramatically' is suspect and leaves me wondering why they are doing it/did it.

 

If someone has one small tattoo, only has ears pierced once, has some highlights or funky haircut/mohawk, wears a little make-up, or starts going to the gym --loses a lot of weight and builds up a lot of extra muscle mass; I don't automatically view it as trauma.

 

I suspect trauma when I see a pattern develop. For example one small tattoo turns into 10 large ones, full face piercings, so much make-up you can't even see the person's skin underneath, changing hair color from black, to blue, to red in a very short time span and then suddenly shaving head, or the extra muscle mass quickly turns into a very unnatural steroid enhanced look.

 

I think it's healthy to try out non-permanent new looks and/or new hair styles; experimentation with your appearance can be a fun way to figure out your likes and dislikes. I view this as self-care, not trauma.

 

I have never wanted tattoos or piercings, the idea of doing something permanent has always seemed like a bad idea. And I will admit, I tend to jump to judgmental conclusions when i see a 22 year old girl with her neck and arms covered in tattoos. I feel sad for her because I project my own fear that she will regret it later in life.

[Blackfish64]

I like going back, back, way back to the origins of tattoo and piercings and finding what it's all about in the first place.  Long ago, tattoo was used as identifing marks in certain cultures.  They signified something.  When I was in the Amazon River Basin, passing through a high-hungle area of Brazil, where there's not much more than you and the wild men, the leader of the village was identified with a tattoo on his upper lip.  And so it goes. 

 

There is a good deal of history to it,  but I don't want to go on too much about it.  Safe to say most of us here know the rest of the story already.  Military men were proud to get a tattoo back in the day to show they served, and criminals got their jailhouse ink to show they paid for the crimes and did their time in fine style, if there is such a thing. 

 

Personally, I have no aversion to tattoos and piercings.  They mean something to the individual who wears them.  I've thought of getting a tattoo on many occasions in the past, but always by the time I got decided I would get inked, I forgot all about it next day, and thus I have no tattoos.  I got my ear pierced when I was eighteen, got bored with it in a few days, and took it out. 

 

Then in the 1990s, there was a huge explosion in everyone getting inked.  Tattooing took off like a skyrocket.  

 

My wife thinks people with tattoos look "dirty".  

 

My daughter wanted a  tattoo at sixteen, and wanted me to sign off on it so she could get it done.  I refused.  She said she was going to do it anyway when she turned eighteen.  On her eighteenth birthday, she got herself a tattoo.  A couple of years later, she got another one on her foot.  She didnt' like it and had it done over and turned into something else.  She's now twenty-seven and saying to herself, "What in the hell did I do all that for?"  I have no idea.  At least she was smart and got them in places they can be easily covered.  Her hubby is smattered with tats, too.  He likes his tats.  Whatever.

 

The only advice I would give to anyone thinking about getting a tattoo is to get it someplace where it can easily be covered by clothing.  You might find yourself in a situation, like a very important job interview, for example, where you will find yourself wishing you could cover up that tat.   

 

I enjoy looking at some serious original tattoos every now and again.  That's another bit of advice I will put forth.  Get something original.  For crying out loud, get something original.  At least have something on you that says what you are.  We go to all the trouble of picking out clothing and hairsyles and other nonsense when we really want to make a statement; might as well do something great with your tattoo, too, while you're at it.  

 

[MysterionMuffles]

I think it's healthy to try out non-permanent new looks and/or new hair styles; experimentation with your appearance can be a fun way to figure out your likes and dislikes. I view this as self-care, not trauma.

 

Ah yes I love this approach! Because getting a haircut or lengthening your hair can't always be some kind of vain thing, nor would be gelling it. We do also have to present ourselves to a world that unfortunately does have to judge us like the covers of books. Life is short. You can't get to know everybody's personality one on one and so appearance does invite certain type of people.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

When I was younger (and definitely more traumatized), I was really into tattoos and was often pondering what design to come up with in order to make a tattoo that would have lasting meaning for me (as opposed to, say, a butterfly on my lower back).

 

Since then I have lost interest in this. I don't know exactly why, but I think it's a combination of 1.) getting over a lot of my childhood trauma, 2.) realizing my chances of tattooing something to myself with permanent meaning is rather slim, and 3.) so many people have tattoos now that they're just fucking boring. Geeze. I look around at people with these trendy tattoos, especially women who seem to gravitate toward even shallower designs, and I wonder, "Did you guys just wander into a tattoo parlor and stare at the art on the wall until you saw something you liked? That's your decision-making process for permanent artwork on your body?!"

 

However, this thread reminds me of someone I met in Austria with an interesting tattoo. He showed me his back upon which was inked a huge and intricate image of Shiva. I asked him what was up with it, and he told me quite an interesting story. Either before he was born or when he was very young (don't remember which), his father travelled to India and died falling off of a cliff. Upon maturity, this guy travelled to India to find the place where his father died. He found the cliff and while he was there, a group of Hindu monks found him there and asked him what was going on (I'm assuming everyone was able to speak English). He explained about his father and what he was doing, and the monks conferred for a moment then told him that they were going to do a ritual with him. They were going to tattoo him on his back anywhere from 1 to 24 hours, depending on how long he could take the pain. Once he said stop, the monks would stop and not start again, leaving the tattoo in whatever condition it was in when they stopped.

 

He told me he lasted 8 hours. Since then many tattoo artists have offered to fill it out and finish it, and he always tells them off. The un-finished Shiva has too much meaning for him. I was already in the "tattoos are now boring" state of my life, but even then I was like, "Wow. That's a cool fucking tattoo. He can be proud of that one." However, the question that arises to my mind now is: what the hell was the father doing dangerous activities in India while his son was in the womb/just born? Obviously he didn't mean to die, but how can you construe this situation as being any sort of responsible to your wife and child?

 

While this is anecdotal, this is a perfect example of the tattoo seriously being a sign of trauma. 8 hours of pain to display the abandonment and possible rejection of the father who found it more important to fall off a cliff in India than to take care of his son at home. All on a 7-year journey from home.

 

Could tattoos be used simply as artwork? I think so. Is it in the majority of cases? I think not.

[RyanT]

 

 

Isn't that kinda like...

 

 

bit of a bait and switch?

[Alan C.]

Could tattoos be used simply as artwork? I think so. Is it in the majority of cases? I think not.

 

If artwork is the objective then one could simply frame it and place it within view (eg. wall, desk, table, etc.), or use it as a computer background, or carry it in one's purse or wallet.

 

The fact that a person feels compelled to go through the pain and expense of permanently defacing their own skin when there are far easier ways to go about preserving and displaying artwork implies that artwork isn't the primary motivator. That the person considers the image to be artwork is simply incidental. The method involved reveals the true nature of the objective.

[cynicist]

 

I have to agree with Ryan, I found this kind of annoying. If you are more concerned with your character than how you look, then why would you get tattoos in the first place? And why should we think that getting tattoos on your body says nothing about your character? Even if you like tattoos, you know that there people who get them for some symbolic meaning, so saying that they are meaningless when they can be used against you just seems really convenient. 

[Bipedal Primate]

Isn't that kinda like...

 

 

bit of a bait and switch?

{lmao}

[James Dean]

I would say, like most things, it's a decision that you have to make for the right reasons. Now, admittedly, the right reasons would be aesthetics and that is a bit vein, but again if it makes you happy for the right reasons then who is anyone else to tell you that it has to be because of trauma. That being said, people who are into tattoos should accept that a lot of people get tattoos and piercings for the wrong reasons.

 

I think what Dsayers said about amputees is very astute and no one has addressed it. I'd also bring up transgendered people undergoing hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery even the many people who get plastic surgery for both reconstructive reasons and purely aesthetic reasons.

 

I think at the end of the day, you have a body and you can choose the way that it looks. I don't think the pain involved is really that relevant; lot's of bodily changes require pain. People who want washboard abs have to do a lot of situps, which can be painful. People who want thin and neat eyebrows have to get that shit waxed - which hurts like hell! how is that different aside from the cultural acceptance. I think to say "ME PLUS" just kind of as a cover all would be like saying anyone who likes to tell jokes and be funny is me+. People who choose to be funny because the risk benefit calculation worked out that way and are acting in rational self interest are distinct from the me+ people, and the same with tattoos. Like Freud and his cigar, sometimes people with a bad-ass dragon on their arm just really like bad-ass dragons.

 

I also don't think the "If it was about the art, you could just get it in a different medium" doesn't hold up or make sense if applied to any other art-form. It would be like saying a marble sculpture costs $10,000 but why would you buy that if you could just take a picture of that sculpture on your smartphone. I think that would make sense only to people who didn't really like sculptures. People like art in the medium that it's in because of the art but also because of the medium itself. A tattoo looks much different on skin than it does on a piece of paper.

 

All that aside, I think what Dylan said is very true. I have no tattoos and no real plan to get one beside a loose offer from my cousin to do it for free if I'm ever in his area (he's a professional tattoo artist) I think people who want to hold out for a meaningful tattoo realize sooner or later that it's not worth it and therefor just keep it on the back-burner.

 

As a side note, I think tattooing is an interesting look into how art would look in a free market. So much of art is heavily subsidized and is therefor very banal and derivative. The artistic geniuses that come along are few and far between and, often, not recognized in their own time because of how crowded the market is. Tattooing really is art made with a customer facing mindset, the (good) artists out there are very aware that their art is going on someone else's body for the rest of their lives so it better be exactly what they want. I don't get the same sense of pompous vanity and narcissism from tattoo artists that I get from other people in the arts like playwrights or musicians. Every tattoo artist I've seen seems down to earth enough and recognizes that its not about them in the end, it's about the consumer.

 

Anyway, that's my rant.

[Blackfish64]

I have an ugly scar on my right shin.  I got it when I was a teen, trying to jump over a barbed-wire fence.  Safe to say, I didn't quite make it all the way over the fence.  Anyway, I wear shorts a lot, and people are always commenting on that scar.  For years and years they have been commenting on that stupid scar.  "Hey, wow!  You have a scar on your leg!"  

 

"Hey, no shit, Sherlock?" 

 

"How'd'ja get that?" 

 

"Trying to jump over a fence when I was a kid.  Didn't quite make it." 

 

"Wow, that's a mean scar."

 

"Geez, thanks.  So nice of you to notice."

 

I swear, one of these days, I am going to walk into a tattoo shop and get a great big huge dragon inked over that scar.  I think it would be better if someone saw it and said, "Whoa!  That's a cool dragon you got there!  I'm getting one!" 

 

HOORAY!

[MysterionMuffles]

Isn't that kinda like...

 

 

bit of a bait and switch?

 

I had trouble coming up with an analogy that counteracted the original image I posted...but this is golden!

[Bipedal Primate]

Punches you in the face with anarchist philosophy. Gets mad when you don't agree.

[MysterionMuffles]

I have to agree with Ryan, I found this kind of annoying. If you are more concerned with your character than how you look, then why would you get tattoos in the first place? And why should we think that getting tattoos on your body says nothing about your character? Even if you like tattoos, you know that there people who get them for some symbolic meaning, so saying that they are meaningless when they can be used against you just seems really convenient. 

 

Yeah, I get it could be a ton of attention seeking, especially if you're covered in tats all over your body. But what do you make of more inconspicuous tattoos? I have an acquaintance who got a Heath Ledger Joker tattoo on his calf. He said he wanted to remember the time in his life where he watched The Dark Knight. Can't remember what was going on for him at the time, but it sounded positive, and that the movie was something that toppe off the good times, so he just wanted to commemerate it. When I asked him if he was so sure that was a good idea, since skin does sag and wrinkle, he was absolutely thrilled to let the tattoo wrinkle and age along with him. 

 

I'm probably not doing his explanation justice, that is my paraphrasing of what he said.

 

On the flip side though, there was this girl who used to work at my local cafe who had a crucifix tattoo on her forearm that read "love is suffering." Uh...I probably don't have to explain how twisted that is. My brother even questioned her on it, and she spouted on about how Jesus' suffering for us sinners was the most loving thing possible and no other can love top that. That would warrant me tugging on the collar of my shirt to let some nervous air out. I found it interesting that that was her idea of what love entailed. I've talked to her a lot, probably not enough to know her  truly, but depsite of that weird belief, she still seemed pretty nice and beaming with positivity all the time. She sings for a Christian rock band and seems well enthused by how much meaning doctrine based music gives her XD

 

With those cases in mind, do you think the size, amount, and conspicuousness is a way to measure one's attention seeking? Because before it gets to the point of being completely covered in them, can't tattoos just be an artistic expression of not just the tattoo artist, but an image that means something to a person that I just like to have on their body as a reminder of a time in their life, or a principle they live by?

 

Where is the line drawn? Why is having pierced ears okay, but the nose not so much? Or the lip, or cheek? (The cheek really eludes)

 

I'm just wondering now if location, location, location, is a measure to how much someone is traumatized and seeking attention. 

 

 

 

I would say, like most things, it's a decision that you have to make for the right reasons. Now, admittedly, the right reasons would be aesthetics and that is a bit vein, but again if it makes you happy for the right reasons then who is anyone else to tell you that it has to be because of trauma. That being said, people who are into tattoos should accept that a lot of people get tattoos and piercings for the wrong reasons.

 

I think what Dsayers said about amputees is very astute and no one has addressed it. I'd also bring up transgendered people undergoing hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery even the many people who get plastic surgery for both reconstructive reasons and purely aesthetic reasons.

 

I think at the end of the day, you have a body and you can choose the way that it looks. I don't think the pain involved is really that relevant; lot's of bodily changes require pain. People who want washboard abs have to do a lot of situps, which can be painful. People who want thin and neat eyebrows have to get that shit waxed - which hurts like hell! how is that different aside from the cultural acceptance. I think to say "ME PLUS" just kind of as a cover all would be like saying anyone who likes to tell jokes and be funny is me+. People who choose to be funny because the risk benefit calculation worked out that way and are acting in rational self interest are distinct from the me+ people, and the same with tattoos. Like Freud and his cigar, sometimes people with a bad-ass dragon on their arm just really like bad-ass dragons.

 

I also don't think the "If it was about the art, you could just get it in a different medium" doesn't hold up or make sense if applied to any other art-form. It would be like saying a marble sculpture costs $10,000 but why would you buy that if you could just take a picture of that sculpture on your smartphone. I think that would make sense only to people who didn't really like sculptures. People like art in the medium that it's in because of the art but also because of the medium itself. A tattoo looks much different on skin than it does on a piece of paper.

 

All that aside, I think what Dylan said is very true. I have no tattoos and no real plan to get one beside a loose offer from my cousin to do it for free if I'm ever in his area (he's a professional tattoo artist) I think people who want to hold out for a meaningful tattoo realize sooner or later that it's not worth it and therefor just keep it on the back-burner.

 

As a side note, I think tattooing is an interesting look into how art would look in a free market. So much of art is heavily subsidized and is therefor very banal and derivative. The artistic geniuses that come along are few and far between and, often, not recognized in their own time because of how crowded the market is. Tattooing really is art made with a customer facing mindset, the (good) artists out there are very aware that their art is going on someone else's body for the rest of their lives so it better be exactly what they want. I don't get the same sense of pompous vanity and narcissism from tattoo artists that I get from other people in the arts like playwrights or musicians. Every tattoo artist I've seen seems down to earth enough and recognizes that its not about them in the end, it's about the consumer.

 

Anyway, that's my rant.

 

That's interesting. So it might be that modern tattooing could be an artform that is an expression of rebellion against subsidized art. That's another aspect of tattoos and piercing; rebellion. Rebellion against modernism by continuing tribal traditions of inking one's body.

 

You bring up a good point James, about the pain received being voluntary and not that different as exercise or getting hair waxed off. I wonder if anyone had any arguments that could contest that, because right now I'm leaning towards this line of thinking. It is their body, we all own our bodies and could do with them as we please, and we are bound to give it some amount of pain for aesthetic appeal in some way or another. You could argue that the short term pain of exercise gives the long term benefit of health, but with a tattoo and piercing, in a way, yes, it's vain to accept an amount of short term pain for long term self aesthetic expression. I know that exercise provides aesthetic AND health benefits so would the absence of health improvements be what knocks tattoo off that category of neccessary short term pain for long term pleasure?

[James Dean]

I know that exercise provides aesthetic AND health benefits so would the absence of health improvements be what knocks tattoo off that category of necessary short term pain for long term pleasure?

 

Well, I would say that it's a little bit of a mind-body dichotomy. I think it could be argued that the well-being that results from full self expression could be considered a health benefit, if a bit of a minor one.

 

Again, let's not get confused, I think there's an Aristotelian mean at play here. You don't want to totally neglect your appearance to the point where you're wearing paper bags and not showering. Even if you were totally physically healthy, bathed regularly, maintained your ADLs, yet your wardrobe was 14 pairs of the exact same thing (a grey track suit for instance) it's safe to say that you'd feel a bit repressed or unfulfilled. I bet you, like me, have more clothes than you really need, clothes that you endured pain (in the form of work) to earn the money to buy. Why? because we like to have options, that's why you buy a lot of different clothes in all different styles for all different occasions. At the other end, people who tattoo their face and neck and every inch of their body are either tattoo artists, which is kind of a professional development issue; they tend to be more tattooed to make the clients feel more at ease. How would you feel getting your car's body detailed by a guy who owned a rust box jalopy? Either that or, like Stef very accurately defined, they are inspiring shock and disgust in others as a tool to manage anxiety. This is, sadly, very common. 

 

Also, I'd like to point out that tattoos are often categorized as "permanent" when that is not the case. Yes, they are much more permanent than a piercing or a hairstyle or a change of clothes... however they can be relatively easily (yet painfully) removed by laser. In addition, tattoos in "high traffic" skin areas, like the hands, knuckles, and feet, or on mucous membranes, like the inside of the lips, mouth, or the tongue (i know, yuck.) often wear down after a short amount of time, usually about 5 to 10 years, at which point you'd either let it fade or get it touched up.

 

I'm not sure why this topic is so important to me, or why I spent the time to write these posts, but I feel like these are good points and seem to be well backed by both my positive and negative experiences with people "in the tattooing scene." If you can think of any counter points, even just to play the devils advocate, please let me know.

 

(also I may now need to be talked out of an FDR tattoo.    )

[MysterionMuffles]

Hmm...there are some people with tattoos who talk about the pain it requires to get it, but go on about how sooooooo worth it was. I guess that could be an indicator too of normalizing pain at least, but doesn't say as much to their childhoods (unless I unpacked it with them, but I dunno).

 

Is it really upon the person with the tattoo to indicate some kind of trauma? What about the tattoo artist? Is there anything you can hypothesize about their mentality if they are willing to inflict pain on someone for the sake of art?

[dsayers]

Hmm...there are some people with tattoos who talk about the pain it requires to get it, but go on about how sooooooo worth it was. I guess that could be an indicator too of normalizing pain

 

It's not necessarily about nomalizing pain. Once the wound is inflicted, you experience an endorphin high and the site is quite warm for some time. You may have noticed that not many people have just one tattoo these days. I think this is why.

[Josh F]

I love and appreciate tattoos and tattoo culture.  I don't have any, but have intended to get into it for a long time now.  

 

I have some news guys, therapy is also a sign of childhood trauma.  This website and community are signs of childhood trauma.  I think tattoos are about signaling people with similar experiences, and it is about painting your own world.  Like Alan said, It is about gaining control in a world where we're not in control, not unlike our interest in philosophy.  I know its a common intellectual thing to reject everything aesthetic or about the body, but I don't share that value.  I appreciate and engage in aesthetics, seek and find beauty in the world, value style and fashion and design and creativity and expression.  

If artwork is the objective then one could simply frame it and place it within view (eg. wall, desk, table, etc.), or use it as a computer background, or carry it in one's purse or wallet.

 

The fact that a person feels compelled to go through the pain and expense of permanently defacing their own skin when there are far easier ways to go about preserving and displaying artwork implies that artwork isn't the primary motivator. That the person considers the image to be artwork is simply incidental. The method involved reveals the true nature of the objective.

 

So lets say tattoos are signs of childhood trauma... and that they're methods of coping with that trauma... whats the problem with that?  I find deep introspection is often a painful way of dealing with these same issues, does that reveal some hidden sadistic nature within me?  Should I be avoided or mistrusted or dismissed because I seek to resolve my issues with methods that induce emotional pain?  

 

 

(also I may now need to be talked out of an FDR tattoo.    )

Are you also thinking of getting Stef's face tattoo'd on the small of your back?  lol, the stef tramp stamp.  

[MMX2010]

 

I don't get the leap here... so lets say tattoos are signs of childhood trauma... arnd that they're methods of coping with that trauma... whats the problem with that?  I find deep introspection is often a painful way of dealing with these same issues, does that reveal some hidden sadistic nature within me?  Should I be avoided or mistrusted or dismissed because I seek to resolve my issues with methods that induce emotional pain?  

 

You're fogging. 

 

So I'll answer your fogging with even more fogging. 

 

"Let's say that beating up women is a sign of childhood trauma, and that it's a method of coping with that trauma....what's the problem with that?"  (The problem, Josh, is that beating up women is an inferior way of processing that trauma.  The same thing can be said for tattooing, relative to therapy.) 

[Josh F]

But the problem with beating up women isn't that it is a sign of childhood trauma, it is that you're beating someone up.  Beating up women isn't processing trauma, it is enacting trauma, it is traumatizing.  And yes, tattoos are inferior ways of processing trauma.  Playing sad songs on your guitar is also an inferior way of processing trauma.  Engaging in internet debates is an inferior way of processing trauma.  

[MMX2010]

And yes, tattoos are inferior ways of processing trauma.  Playing sad songs on your guitar is also an inferior way of processing trauma.  Engaging in internet debates is an inferior way of processing trauma.  

 

So have you talked yourself into agreeing with me (and quite possibly Alan Chapman) that people who choose inferior ways of processing trauma are going to be looked down upon as long-term investments, compared to people who choose superior ways of processing trauma? 

But the problem with beating up women isn't that it is a sign of childhood trauma, it is that you're beating someone up.  Beating up women isn't processing trauma, it is enacting trauma, it is traumatizing.

 

 

That's a half-truth, Josh.  Beating up women is BOTH a sign of childhood trauma (because the overwhelming majority of men who beat up women were traumatized as children) AND a traumatizing. 

 

 

 

 

And yes, tattoos are inferior ways of processing trauma.  Playing sad songs on your guitar is also an inferior way of processing trauma.  Engaging in internet debates is an inferior way of processing trauma.  

 

Those are half-truths, too.

 

SOME people engage in internet debates without going to therapy.  Those people are inferior long-term investments.  OTHERS manage to both engage in internet debates AND go to therapy, (although not simultaneously).  These other people are superior long-term investments. 

 

SOME people play sad songs on the guitar while refusing therapy.  Those people are inferior long-term investments.  OTHERS manage to both play sad songs on their guitars AND go to therapy, (although not simultaneously).  These other people are superior long-term investments. 

 

Finally, SOME people only get tattoos while refusing / downplaying the usefulness of therapy.  Those people are inferior long-term investments.  OTHERS manage to both get tattoos and engage in therapy, (although not simultaneously).  These other people are superior long-term investments. 

 

Some people have observed, but cannot prove, that tattoo-covered individuals are much more likely (of those three groups) to refuse / downplay therapy, and have therefore concluded that "It's a more efficient use of my time to refuse to talk to people with tattoos."  They have every right to make such a conclusion, since their time is precious to them and since they've no loyalty to tattoo-covered individuals. 

[Josh F]

Is this about people being long-term investments?  I don't know what that even means.  Investing in friendship?  People with tattoos make bad friends?  Investing in them as in giving them a job?  People with tattoos are less productive?  I don't get your standard "long term investments" or its implications.

 

I have nothing to really contribute to your speculation that people with tattoos are more likely to reject therapy except that the burden of proof is on you.  

 

Here is my question to you guys:  what does someone with tattoos make you feel about yourself?  

 

This is speculative, but here is my honest consideration here: many of us who experience childhood trauma suffer from issues like social anxiety, while others have turned their trauma isn't something cool.  In so far as the childhood trauma of one person might result in feeling excluded and ostracized, for others their behavior gives them more social cache. It reminds me of having a cooler brother or sister, and that feeling that you want to expose them, to turn the tables.  "Ahh I know the REAL them, the deep down insecure abused them and I want to expose them for it."  Thats how it feels to me.  

[RyanT]

This is speculative, but here is my honest consideration here: many of us who experience childhood trauma suffer from issues like social anxiety, while others have turned their trauma isn't something cool.  In so far as the childhood trauma of one person might result in feeling excluded and ostracized, for others their behavior gives them more social cache. It reminds me of having a cooler brother or sister, and that feeling that you want to expose them, to turn the tables.  "Ahh I know the REAL them, the deep down insecure abused them and I want to expose them for it."  Thats how it feels to me.  

 

I think there's quite a lot of truth in that, my question would be, is that necessarily a bad thing?

[MMX2010]

Is this about people being long-term investments?  I don't know what that even means.  Investing in friendship?  People with tattoos make bad friends?  Investing in them as in giving them a job?  People with tattoos are less productive?  I don't get your standard "long term investments" or its implications.

 

If you don't know what that even means, I suggest reading the scientific-article I linked earlier.

 

http://www.returnofkings.com/45944/science-confirms-tattooed-women-are-indeed-broken

 

The tl;dr summary is that tattooed women are more promiscuous, have sex earlier, and have sex more often.  (Some men find this slutty.)  Tattooed women are also more impulsive, more likely to be on drugs, and more likely to engage in risk-taking behavior.  (Some men find this unreliable, non-feminine, non-maternal, or all-of-these.)  Tattooed women are also more hostile, more prone to delinquent behavior, more likely to use violence, and more likely to suffer from Anti-Social Personality Disorder.  Lastly, tattooed women are more likely to suffer from mental illnesses, such as depression, eating disorders, BPD, neuroticism, and increased risk of suicide. 

 

 

 

Here is my question to you guys:  what does someone with tattoos make you feel about yourself? 

 

Someone with tattoos makes me feel cheated, because I see tattoos as ways of "earning" respect and admiration that do not at all involve the acquisition of talent, intelligence, nor caring/concern for others.