Compliments = harassment. Feminist "logic"

[James Dean]

A woman walked down the street and was compli- oops I mean harassed several hundreds of times.

 

Here's the article- if you can stomach it.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...

 

Or if you prefer feminist drivel spaced out with actual intelligent commentary (the Scottish accents just a bonus...) support 6oodfella, give 'im a like!

 

 

 

 

I think he makes a great point. (well a number of great points, but this one in particular.) I just think it's unbelieveable that all these feminists get on tumblr and bitch about how compliments are harassment and sitting on a bus is sexist then mozy their way over to some BS site like "thought catalog" (yes it's a thing, no, you shouldn't go there.) to complain about how men never make the first move, men are afraid to get married, men aren't as confident as they used to be... we no SHIT! ugh.

 

This world is so sick.

 

 

[Lars]

[Wuzzums]

Attractive female. Full make-up. Stylized hair. Tight provocative clothes.

It's the equivalent of a woman wearing cleavage on a date and then complaining that her date keeps staring at her breasts.

Or a bodybuilder complaining how he can't fight proper clothes because his muscles are too big.

Or Brad Pitt complaining how successful an actor he is.

 

But nonetheless, even if I do agree that "have a nice day" is harassment beyond baring what am I supposed to get from this vid? That men should stop harassing and/or men should stop other men from harassing? I don't harass strangers on the street and I'm not responsible for the actions of strangers... so...

 

Anyway, FunnyorDie made a parody, it's hilarious: http://www.funnyordie.com/articles/ebf5e34fc8/10-hours-of-walking-in-nyc-as-a-man

[J. D. Stembal]

I'm calling bull-smack. Was it filmed all in the same day or over a whole month? We are led to believe that she was the recipient of a comment every five minutes. I've never been to NYC but that seems like a lot of street conversation for one day. Also, by completely ignoring almost all interactions, she only provoked attention. If it was me that said hello, my curiosity would be piqued thinking that she was deaf, mute or perhaps lost.

[PGP]

I've had the thought recently of feminism and stories like this being like a scene in a film. The camera is rolling in a room and all seems quite "normal". SJW and feminists etc. are planning their next PR stunt to prove how victimised they are by proving they shouldn't be treated like victims etc.Then someone involved in the discussion leaves the room and the camera pans to the outside of a cell door in an insane asylum. The person that left the room is a doctor or a researcher and she/he makes their report to their supervisor: "Yes doctor, they are still insane and if anything, they're getting worse".

[cynicist]

To be fair, some of that was legitimately creepy; Like the two guys that followed her for a few minutes. Most of it was actually really polite though, compared to what I expected. It makes me wonder how many women would like to have that attention. I don't see women cat-calling guys much, but I'm not sure that I'd feel bad if the situation were reversed. Is that because I'm less likely to feel physically threatened as a man? /shrug

 

A female perspective would be helpful in this thread.

[Miramiss]

okay... don't burn me too hard guys, I am not good at discussing but I will give it a try since female perspective is asked for.

I have personally been catcalled a lot in the streets. When I was younger and started to get the attention I enjoyed it. This turned pretty quick tho. When someone gave me positive attention and I responded, it suddenly turned into more. Then a date or my phone number was asked for, when I politely rejected this, guys started to nag me about it. And sooner or later I would turn into a bitch that think I am so fucking hot that I can't even give away my phone number to nice guys that are complimenting me on the street. Sometimes they yell and threaten. Often they say I owe them something since they where nice. A few times it has been physical.
Therefore: compliments from strangers has turned into a negative thing. It makes me nervous because I know there is a good chance that it can turn into harassment.
It does not matters what I wear. I am not that pretty. Guys in gangs are more likely to catcall than loners (which makes them more intimidating), except when it is just me and one guy and no one else around. Then the really creepy stuff happens.
I am not saying all guys are like that, all I am saying is that this happens to me on a regular bases, and several times I had to take the long way home from work since there was guys following me, and giving me rude and creepy catcalls.
 

But guess what! Woman are not better!
I happen to have a very attractive husband. He works as a salesperson and therefore being nice to people is his job. I can say that there is few times he comes home from work without some crazy lady trying to get his number. In all ages. He tells them he is not interested, if he is out of luck, that is ignored and he get his butt pinched. Sometimes he says he is married and some are polite and say "that is a shame, you have one lucky lady" others say that I don't  have to know *wink wink, nudge nudge*. One even said that I would probably not mind if he joined her back to her house after work for some "friendly cuddling". Hubby is not getting many catcalls on the street, but at work, damn! And it is not like it is only ladies in his age group that is on him. We have everything from teenagers to cougars (why are cougars sexy, but men in the same age creepy btw?) and woman have a tendency to be physical quicker than men when they are flirting.
 

I feel that men have this tendency to try to corner me into a situation where they are in charge and I have to give in to whatever they want, while woman are trying to lure my hubby into something he is not interested in. He is not scared of the woman as I am for the men, but we both feel uncomfortable in the situations.

Both are equal poor mannered, and is both a man and woman problem. And not all men are like that, and not all woman are like that, but those who are jerks destroys it all for everybody else.

[ProfessionalTeabagger]

Sexy woman with big tits wears tight tight jeans / top and walks by thousands of men to see how they react. Talk about objecification of men. 

[GYre0ePJhZ]

Bringing the female perspective:

 

My girlfriend says that she did not really see the harassment in it, but she thought those following her was creepy and she does not like whistling. She also says that she would start talking with someone who initiated contact with her on the street in a polite manner. How she would react to compliments she says is very dependent on context. She thinks that women in general have very different preferences for how they want to be contacted.

 

 

Edit: want to add that I've had my butt pinched by girls several times in clubs and been approached with compliments. There absolutely were parts of me that enjoyed it a lot.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Avalanche

[PatrickC]

I think the thing that irritates me is the genesis of the video, is the way they describe it as "harassment".

 

Real street harassment is what most men experience. I wish I could find the stats again, but they seem to have been shrunk into classifications of violence. But the stats as I recall were that around 78% of victims of violent street assault victims are young men between the ages of 16 - 25. They are also the most likely to be killed or end up in hospital.

 

I guess I'm wandering into the fallacy of privation territory. But it's not to say that following ladies or being verbally abusive or demanding attention from them isn't poor behaviour. I'm just more likely to hear these woes much more than I am from a young man that got his teeth knocked out the other evening.

[Kevin Beal]

I wouldn't call it positive to be yelled at to "smile" or the creepy walking next to her silently for a while, but as with everything, the question is compared to what? As if men never get harassed or creepy things their way. That's why I like the Funny or Die parody so much.

 

And if I may say so, she was looking very nice in the video with those ultra tight pants. I noticed before I even knew what the video was about. If I were in New York City at the time, I may have been on the video as one of the "creeps" saying something like "beautiful day, isn't it?"

 

People have yelled out "fag" at me before. I got a slushy drink thrown at me once. I've had people follow me, and even random girls telling me that they are in love with me. And there are no bad streets in those small towns.

 

If it were a video saying "harassment is bad regardless of sex" then I'd be a little less exasperated or tired by it, but it's supposed to say that women are uniquely disadvantaged. Which is ironic since there is probably no man here who is particularly surprised by what happened, but the people promoting it don't even seem to know that men get harassed too, and as Patrick has pointed out that men are 4 times more likely to be assaulted.

 

Who exactly is uniquely disadvantaged?

[kahvi]

Women go through this kind of harrassment every day, huh? Funny, I can't remember ever being catcalled. Maybe I'm just too ugly?

[shirgall]

Compare the behavior in the video to this:

http://ktla.com/2014/10/24/strong-arm-robber-terrorizes-88-year-old-man-in-videotaped-attack/

 

Or this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0FpMgurltk

[Kevin Beal]

Women go through this kind of harrassment every day, huh? Funny, I can't remember ever being catcalled. Maybe I'm just too ugly?

I catcall all my friends. The associations I have with it are very positive.

 

So here's a catcall for you

[James Dean]

Who exactly is uniquely disadvantaged?

 

exactly. what's the principal here? that people shouldn't say rude things to you? I agree with that but what does it have to do with women, or men for that matter. That's what pisses me off about feminists. There are the issues that they have totally fabricated like the pay gap or the "ban bossy" campaign; and those are irritating. But then there are the issues that are actual issues for everyone like sexual assault in general, like harassment, and bullying and then they turn them into women's issues, totally erasing all other victims of those things. I think that is the more heinous then just fabricating shit to be victimized by.

[kahvi]

I catcall all my friends. The associations I have with it are very positive.

 

So here's a catcall for you

 

Ahhh, thanks. Now I can scratch that off my bucket list.

[Josh F]

This video is annoying.  Firstly, it got in a lot of trouble because the majority of the cat-callers, and the most aggressive ones, were black and latino.  Feminism and Racism have a long intertwined history, the first suffragists being a bunch of racists themselves.  Personally, I find that behavior negative, though regardless of this woman and her video.  Its scummy and also its not very effective.  I tend to think a lot of catcalling is about impressing men way more than about attracting women.  I mean whats the success ratio of catcalling to getting a date?  Its gotta be terrible.  

[J. D. Stembal]

Bringing the female perspective:

 

My girlfriend says that she did not really see the harassment in it, but she thought those following her was creepy and she does not like whistling. She also says that she would start talking with someone who initiated contact with her on the street in a polite manner. How she would react to compliments she says is very dependent on context. She thinks that women in general have very different preferences for how they want to be contacted.

 

 

Edit: want to add that I've had my butt pinched by girls several times in clubs and been approached with compliments. There absolutely were parts of me that enjoyed it a lot.

 

I have been grabbed, spanked and fondled in public a handful of times without my permission by women, and a couple gay men as well. I do not recall enjoying the attention. The worst was the dick grabbing. That pissed me off a bit. I'm probably a 7/10 for reference or at least I was when this harassment occurred.

 

Also, this is for Miramiss, but getting hit on by cougars is extremely creepy, and luckily, I don't recall it happening much. It's almost as if these women are banking on me having been sexually abused by a woman when I was a child, because honestly, unless I'm trying to pimp myself out as a gigolo, why do I want to have anything to do with a woman who is probably rapidly approaching menopause?

[GYre0ePJhZ]

I have been grabbed, spanked and fondled in public a handful of times without my permission by women, and a couple gay men as well. I do not recall enjoying the attention. The worst was the dick grabbing. That pissed me off a bit. I'm probably a 7/10 for reference or at least I was when this harassment occurred.

 

I am sorry this has been your experience. I have never been dick grabbed or spanked in public, but when I read what you wrote I do recall encounters that creeped me out as well.

 

I do understand that it is dysfunctional on part of the woman to instigate an interaction by, for example, pinching a man's butt, and maybe it was dysfunctional on my part that I, in some instances, felt good about it too. However, I wonder if the instances I felt flattered were cases in which women whom I perceived as beautiful did it, and thus my shallow parts gave me a rush of happy joy-juice. I mean, it might be my balls telling me that I now have the chance to make more balls with women of high-quality DNA thus a reinforcement of happy-juices were injected in my brain for the purpose of motivating me to pursue that opportunity. This explanation makes a lot of sense to me, but I am certainly open to other ones. Let me know what you think if you have thoughts about it

[J. D. Stembal]

I am sorry this has been your experience. I have never been dick grabbed or spanked in public, but when I read what you wrote I do recall encounters that creeped me out as well.

 

I do understand that it is dysfunctional on part of the woman to instigate an interaction by, for example, pinching a man's butt, and maybe it was dysfunctional on my part that I, in some instances, felt good about it too. However, I wonder if the instances I felt flattered were cases in which women whom I perceived as beautiful did it, and thus my shallow parts gave me a rush of happy joy-juice. I mean, it might be my balls telling me that I now have the chance to make more balls with women of high-quality DNA thus a reinforcement of happy-juices were injected in my brain for the purpose of motivating me to pursue that opportunity. This explanation makes a lot of sense to me, but I am certainly open to other ones. Let me know what you think if you have thoughts about it

 

I'm not opposed to women being assertive but there's a right way and wrong way to go about it. There's definitely an aspect of "ego-boosting" involved with this type of attention, but I believe it only works on those of us who have self-esteem issues. For example, I was smacked on the ass by a woman as I walked by and when I turned around, she cat-called me (the "Whoo-hoo, Sexy!" greeting). She was an attractive woman, and I remember feeling put-off by it at first, then ex post facto, I rationalized it as an ego-boost. "That woman finds me attractive - great!" but it was only as a defense against being angry with her, looking back on it. I didn't approach her to talk to her, because I felt violated and humiliated underneath the justifications. I should have told her that what she did was not permissible, but I just let it go, thereby enabling the behavior of another "Whoo-hoo" party girl.

 

Contrast it with another encounter. I was singing karaoke in a bar, and just after I got off the stage, a woman approached and started talking to me about how she liked my performance. We ended up talking for a bit, and she gave me her phone number. I called her and we dated for a time, and I'm sure she enjoyed it very thoroughly. What the ass-slapper didn't get was any positive attention from me. The woman who treated me like a human being got to date me. Men and women really aren't so different. They would rather be treated like a person than a penis or vagina with legs.

 

I very much appreciate the sympathy. Thank you.

 

As an aside, I've never hooted or whistled at any woman on the street. I will definitely strike up conversation with women in public, and yes, it does instigate a lot of fearful stares. ("Why is this strange man speaking to me?") I don't take it personally because I know it's all in their head. Some women will smile or return a greeting, but very few will actually stop to chit-chat with a stranger on the street.

[GYre0ePJhZ]

I think you make a great point about being conscious of not enabling behavior like this. It has never worked on me either but I find it interesting to reflect over how I reacted to it in the past to get a deeper understanding of the issue for both men and women. Thanks for sharing your thoughts

 

About the video I now think she definitely has legitimate complaints over how she was treated by those men, but I get the impression she has some ulterior motives like fame, money etc rather than actually adressing the problem in a constructive manner. I think that a constructive way of addressing the problem is to resist sex-baiting and invite both men and women on how to solve this problem as a human problem and not as a female problem that only men are responsible for perpetrating.

[PatrickC]

I mean whats the success ratio of catcalling to getting a date?  Its gotta be terrible.  

 

Yeah It's low rent, but believe me amongst low rent women, it does actually work. These type of guys do it all day and all week. So to them it's just a game of numbers. If they get a nibble once a week then it's all good in their minds.

 

The film makers would be better off explaining to the ladies that like this attention just how low rent it actually is. The guys, well they are gonna do what gets them the most female attention of course. They would dress like a clown if it got them laid.

[Miramiss]

@EndTheUsurpartion: I did not incline that cougars are sexy, but that society for some reason say they are. I can understand it is creepy being hit on by a woman who could be your mother, in the same way I think it is creepy getting hit on by men who are much older than me too. I don't see the difference. I am sorry to hear you have experienced harassment. I know how not fun it is getting grabbed

[Kevin Beal]

What men are impressed by harassing women? I've heard feminists claim this, but I highly doubt it. Most men would become very protective of the woman if there was genuine harassment going on.

 

If the woman in the video told the creepy guy who walked with her for 5 minutes to get away and another man overheard it, you can be pretty sure that there would be some kind of intervention.

 

You can tell that some of the men actually believed that their strategy works because they get visibly disappointed.

 

Maybe some guys are impressed by that, like any sort of dare, but the one time I gave into peer pressure and cat called a woman I didn't already know, she visibly appreciated it, taking it as a compliment. (Possibly because I have a very gentle face and am somewhat handsome).

 

So,... yea. Not so simple.

[hannahbanana]

Issues like this are, imo, aspects of the bigger problem of violence towards others in general. I'm probably preaching to the choir here, since everyone here is perfectly aware of how the treatment of children and models of dysfunctional relationships with others are so detrimental to how people treat each other in the future. I find it troublesome how popular social groups refuse to focus on the big picture, and instead fixate on a tiny part of it.

I also wonder why feminists are so willing to make women the victim (because they want to make themselves the victim), but they are unable to extend that to revealing the victimhood of children (because I'm sure that many of them were, as many people in general were, victimized at some point in time as a child). It's not a gendered issue; it's a human issue. People just manifest this violence in different ways.

[MarcAnthony]

Its an error in fundamental attribution. Society sees women as far more complex and emotionally capable than men. When women exhibit signs of aggressive or reckless sexuality it is seen as an outgrowth of inner self worth problems and probably the result of an abusive environment. When men exhibit signs of aggressive or reckless sexuality it is seen as just aggressive and reckless. Its thought of as a sign of too much self worth and the cause of abusive environments not the result.

[PatrickC]

I also wonder why feminists are so willing to make women the victim (because they want to make themselves the victim), but they are unable to extend that to revealing the victimhood of children (because I'm sure that many of them were, as many people in general were, victimized at some point in time as a child). It's not a gendered issue; it's a human issue. People just manifest this violence in different ways.

 

They ignore the plight of the child for one reason and one reason alone. It means they become no longer accountable for their actions and the results thereof. They instead prefer to blame the effects of abuse (catcalling let's say), which happens to be men and not the root cause (child abuse), which both men and women are responsible for. Although these days, since women have been given an almost wholesale 'get out of jail free' card, it's arguably more important that women get this, since most men are already berated continually for their behaviour.

 

I think it's a long way off, the culture of women as victims is so deeply entrenched not just culturally by also politically. It's why I'm very keen to see the MRM succeed.

[MMX2010]

Chateau Heartiste is often too in-your-face for some people's liking, but this article is both relevant and tame-by-comparison. 

 

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/11/06/a-white-woman-walks-through-a-white-part-of-town-and-gets-no-catcalls/

 

The takeaway paragraph: "Lesson of the tape: White men don’t catcall. If you are a woman who secretly wants catcalls to feel attractive to men, and you don’t care about catcaller quality or courtship skill level, your best bet is to have a steatopygic ass stuffed into fuck-me jeans and a parade route through Harlem during work hours."

[MarcAnthony]

Heartise seems to confuse race with culture. While a large overlap exists the extent is correlation with race not biologically caused by it. "Hip hop" white guys will cat call as part of the bravado of that culture. A "Country" black guy will probably open doors and say ma'am. There are of course racially corresponding histories but once again to be attributed to the race is to me to suggest caused by the race itself.

[J. D. Stembal]

Heartise seems to confuse race with culture. While a large overlap exists the extent is correlation with race not biologically caused by it. "Hip hop" white guys will cat call as part of the bravado of that culture. A "Country" black guy will probably open doors and say ma'am. There are of course racially corresponding histories but once again to be attributed to the race is to me to suggest caused by the race itself.

 

You are forgetting that culture is largely an imagined construct, whereas race can be objectively defined. Race provides an objective framework for discussion; tastes in popular music, not so much. For example, are you more likely to be assaulted by a fan of jazz music or Baroque music?

[MMX2010]

Heartise seems to confuse race with culture. While a large overlap exists the extent is correlation with race not biologically caused by it. "Hip hop" white guys will cat call as part of the bravado of that culture. A "Country" black guy will probably open doors and say ma'am. There are of course racially corresponding histories but once again to be attributed to the race is to me to suggest caused by the race itself.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with it. 

 

I think Heartiste was saying that if the women who made the "harassment" video understood certain cultural differences, she wouldn't have been shocked by what happened in her video.  Nor would she have chosen to walk in that neighborhood, at that time, surrounded by that specific sub-group of people. 

 

Heartiste is also saying that people who've tried to spin this as an "All men harass women!" campaign are blatantly denying facts, particularly facts surrounding cultural differences. 

[MarcAnthony]

EndtheUsurpation- I dont know that linking culture to race helps understand the issue more than create division. To say something is racially based, at least in my understanding, implies it is the biology of the race that causes the culture. I personally think its a shallow approach to a topic with a multitude of layers. Not to call u shallow, only the impulse to label a race with a cultural subset held by members of that race.

 

MM- I can agree that he may have been attacking preconceptions. My point though is that if we want to move past racism/sexism we have to treat these things memes. Cultures are like religions. Its not the people, its not the biology, its the beliefs we need to attack. Though I see where youre coming from, hes pointing out the missing factors in the video the feminists missed that challenge their narrative.

[J. D. Stembal]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with it. 

 

I think Heartiste was saying that if the women who made the "harassment" video understood certain cultural differences, she wouldn't have been shocked by what happened in her video.  Nor would she have chosen to walk in that neighborhood, at that time, surrounded by that specific sub-group of people. 

 

Heartiste is also saying that people who've tried to spin this as an "All men harass women!" campaign are blatantly denying facts, particularly facts surrounding cultural differences. 

 

He specifically comments on race and correlated behavior. "Catcalls are anti-game for white women." He also adds the editorial of "white, slender women are the world's most desirable." I'm not saying that I agree with his opinions, but the claim "catcalls repulse white women," can be objectively measured should we want to go through the trouble of experimenting. You could also demonstrate how often white men catcall compared to others. If it does pan out as a valid observation, that white women respond less favorably to catcalls than other women, then Shoshana's video seems patently ridiculous. Why would she make a video that demonstrates that she doesn't like all the awkward attention she gets in neighborhoods she probably doesn't normally frequent? If she did like the attention, logic holds that she would frequent those areas.

[kalmia]

I think much of what is "creepy" is about status and attractiveness. A guy lower in attractiveness is creepy. But she must continue to do what attracts attention for th possibility of attracting the attractive guy whose attention she does want. She is driven by hypergamy. The idea of a man below the narrow status of men she is after is creepy to her.

[danielle9184]

I have been the recipient of cat-calling. In a less densely populated neighborhood, in sweatpants and a zip-up hoodie, I'm regularly honked at and occasionally approached, in spite of the 70 lb pit bull I'm usually walking. Do I see this as sexist or blame the "patriarchy"? Not at all. Is it irritating? Yes. If I am not topless and girating on a stage, I generally do not appreciate being hooted and hollered at. To blame men is an unfair generalization. I attribute this behavior as more of a cultural thing. If I were to talk a stroll further into the nicer part of down, I typically see a decrease in the amount of honking I receive.