Talking my friend out of becoming a Cop.

[Omegahero09]

I've brought up a couple statistics and facts about cops. The domestic violence statistics, how addictive and dangerous power is on the scientific level, how the system is broken (it's immoral, worsens the problems it tries to solve and is a recepie for corruption, violence and injustice), but the party we were at moved forwards and I wasn't able to further the conversation to the NAP. We are hanging out more and more though, and this conversation will come up again. He brought the conversation to me- knowing I'm an anarchist.

 

He is open to reason, and he is willing to talk to just about anyone to learn other points of view. I'm not certain yet if this is an appeasement tactic or a genuine search for knowledge, but either way he dialogues with me so that's a plus.

 

Additionally- he takes correction very well, he conceded a couple points to me, which is why I have hope to bring voluntarism and philosophy to another individual.

 

 

 

Does anyone have any experience with these kinds of situations? What works? What doesn't? I'm going to bring up the "against me" argument, as well as Kokesh's "do you own your body" argument. But I want a couple more tools to help illustrate the philosophy. I can bring utilitarian points all day, but I want to avoid those points until after he has universal principles and the NAP down.

 

Any help, would be massively appreciated. I also remember a couple points that he brought up if that helps- he is statist, and he thinks he is a 'bad kid' for the basic spectrum of nonviolent crimes, but thinks he can help and protect he and his family best if he is on the side of the state. He loves the tools of the police, and their ability to hunt and track down drug dealers, as believes that with the growing threat of domestic and Islamic terrorism, that militarizing the police is justified.

[dsayers]

What does "open to reason" mean?

 

For what it's worth, your post had a lot of talk about you. Unfortunately, you cannot use logic, reason, and evidence to talk somebody out of a position they didn't arrive at by way of logic, reason, and evidence. So the most important pieces of information here would be WHY he wants to become a cop and what his childhood was like that he accepts the suggestion that he could have moral rights/immunities that people do not have.

 

If all you're looking for is a logical proof that police are a work of fiction/patently immoral,

does a good job of walking you through it. You could also check out Stef's Bomb in the Brain series to reinforce the idea that you cannot convince somebody of something until you know why they think what they do.

[shirgall]

What does "open to reason" mean?

 

People who are "open to reason" are capable of changing their beliefs if given a sufficient argument and evidence.

[Omegahero09]

Shirgall yes, he is open to making sense of concepts with logic and evidence.

 

Dsayers thanks for your input man. I know he hasn't connected universal principles from himself to others yet. He's perfectly comfortable with buying illegal substances from dealers, and working to shut the same dealers away and ruin their lives a couple years later, which is terrifying.

 

The angle that he comes from is from survival. The cops are the biggest baddest group around, and he can protect himself and his family from them, if he joins them. He continually compared being a cop to being on a sports team- horrifying.

 

He hears me when I tell him that it's horrifying; he processed and paused to chew on my points, which tells me he has never heard of universal principles though we didn't have the time to put that vocabulary on the table. I only got to ask questions, I haven't hit definitions yet.

[dsayers]

Pardon the nitpick, but I think "open to reason" applies to everybody. Even people who cling to the irrational can change their mind. Unless they're a psychopath, saying somebody is open to reason is pretty meaningless. It doesn't provide any information about the interaction other than your bias that he's a good person. I'm not saying he's not, but if you're to have any luck in your goal, you need to try and maintain a clear picture of what you're working with.

 

The angle that he comes from is from survival.

 

He is lying to you. The way to survive a threat is to avoid or neutralize it, not bathe in or add to it.

 

Besides, if he wanted to get in good with the "bad guys" in an attempt to avoid their ire, wouldn't the ruling class be more seductive than the enforcer class? The ruling class gets to point their finger from afar while the enforcer class endangers themselves to make it so.

[PGP]

Interesting question. I can provide my experience of what happens to people when they enter the police. This is from a sibling who joined and also a few friends and acquaintances over the years. I'm in Europe but I think there is enough similarity for it to be of use. 

I am speaking from the point of how these individuals come across pre-and-post joining in conversation and relationships, so really from an overall gut reaction to them more than any well-thought out rational evaluation. I am giving it in this way as I think besides all of the rational philosophical and moral reasons for not being a cop, there is IMO and IME a clear path being taken in life that sets them apart from the general population even when not on duty and even within their own family. Hence, the strong bond that develops within the cops.

 

Funny, my sister (7 yrs older) studied and achieved a BA degree in philosophy, entered the cops for the job security and I think power of the position (she was bullied for her weight in school unmercilessly). They are taught that everyone is a suspect. Period. They are taught to constantly be scanning for illegal activity. They see the very worst scum and criminal in society and very often for the first period of their training/placement they are placed in the worst situations as a test. My sister spent her first few years picking heroin out of junkies asses as an example. I think that in general there is a brainwashing and psychological damage inflicted on them to set them apart and ensure loyalty to the cops and whatever goes on within the cops whether legal or not. 

From before and early on in my sisters career from having quite good convos about phil and history and other things, conversations became interrogations. She started to approach convo's with the aim of finding "something" out, no matter how inappropriate or irrelevant it was. For instance when I came back from a period of travelling when I was ~20/21, the first thing she said to me was "Did you take drugs?", before even asking how I was or whatever. Personality was replaced with something else. I have noticed this with chaps I played sports with over the years also and went to school with. Sound, nice chaps turned into sneaky bastard automatons that you can never be relaxed or open with in any way.

 

This is just a taste of my experience with them. I have absolutely no contact with my sister now and if I beleived in God, I'd thank him every day for not having to see her again. She disgusts me. Whatever relationship you have with this chap now, I can guarantee will disappear completely if he joins the cops. It's a clear choice for him.

[Omegahero09]

He is lying to you. The way to survive a threat is to avoid or neutralize it, not bathe in or add to it.

 

Besides, if he wanted to get in good with the "bad guys" in an attempt to avoid their ire, wouldn't the ruling class be more seductive than the enforcer class? The ruling class gets to point their finger from afar while the enforcer class endangers themselves to make it so.

I got that exact feeling from him actually. He prides himself on his ability to fight, and has some pretty gnarly stories about altercations he has been in. I think he may just want a reason to excercise power over people, and his fondness and justifications for police militarization, and even making justifications for cops when people share horror stories about police interactions indicates a sort of weird comfort and favoritism for the police.

 

Alright d, if his mind is beyond saving, what should I look for to indicate so?

Post script: The justifications really started to come out last night when we were hanging out after work with our girlfriends. So it's looking a little more grim than before. I do still think that it isn't too late yet

 

 

 

PGP

 

Thanks for your input man, it's awesome because I've never talked with anyone who has seen someone go in and change like that.

 

Did anyone else notice anything different about your sister, or cut ties with her? Did you talk with anyone about it or notice anything? Even something small like unfriending someone on Facebook (shudders) is a pretty significant sign in most cases.

[dsayers]

That's not surprising. Even those who join the police that aren't already aware of their desire to lord over other humans go through a mental warp where they start to believe in their own moral separation from the remainder of human kind. I've read Larken Rose's book The Most Dangerous Superstition and by far, the most value I got from the book was the part that talked about the way the most dangerous superstition will alter "good cops" into bad cops. We're social creatures and survival and social acceptance often requires coalescing with the lowest common denominator.

 

As for when is it a lost cause, I don't think there's any clear answer. You would need to get to the root of his desire to hurt people. I imagine he was abused as a child. That it was modeled for him that size (physical or metaphorical) is the standard and that by artificially increasing his size, he gets to be the initiator. Which means he doesn't have to be the receiver. He'll gain the control he's never had, that he so desperately needs. The only control that will have any meaning in such a person's life is identifying the abuse of his parents and getting angry about it so he can begin to heal. This path also has the nifty side effect of not hurting other people.

 

I used to hurt other people out of similar motivation. The most power I've ever experienced was when I broke the cycle of violence in my own life.

[PGP]

 

Did anyone else notice anything different about your sister, or cut ties with her? Did you talk with anyone about it or notice anything? Even something small like unfriending someone on Facebook (shudders) is a pretty significant sign in most cases.

To put some perspective on it, I was around 15 when she entered and she 22-23. I don't think she had many friends and the ones she had were assholes. For instance one of her "best" friends was one that treated her like dirt and actually "robbed" a boyfriend on her. At the time, I had no clue about psychology or childhood trauma, all I can say is that I enjoyed talking to her and I had affection toward her.

On entering the cops, I think it was like a drug or a new family to her. She talked constantly about it. I can say that having become a cop and starting operating as one, other peoples relationship to her changed in that now (as is quite common here) she became an asset in many ways. Speeding/tax fines to be cancelled, strings pulled etc. All feeding into her desire for power over others. There's a saying about cops here, it's like; "I'm arresting you under the "I was bullied in school and now its my turn Act of 19--""...

I can say that any relationships she has are based on this expediency she can provide for others. Anyone decent or with a shred of moral fibre runs a mile. Nobody wants to be a round a power-hungry freak and be interrogated and unsure if what they say is in confidence. It's a moat of separateness from everyone else accept cops and what goes on in those circles I don't know and I don't care.

Just as one example of what I'm talking about. I have completely cut off from her since the start of this year, Christmas was the last straw. Since then she has threatened to stalk my house and has turned up unannounced also early on a Sunday morning. Weird as fuck. 

Maybe it's just my sister but I have seen alot of this with other cops and their relationships. By and large they become pariahs here.

[nickhk]

Actually did this.  I have a good friend who was thinking about joining Law Enforcement.  He remains my good friend, how's that for foreshadowing?

 

We were both mercenaries in the Marines, as some background as to why this would come up at all with a good friend given what forum we're in.

 

I think the clincher for him was that he would have to enforce laws he didn't agree with.  Even if in the moment he could do something, maybe next week, or the second officer on scene or whatever would follow the law to the letter.  I pointed out his own autonomy would vanish, or cease.  If the laws changed, that would complicate things.

 

For the most part, I was using Socratic questioning anyway.  I wanted to find out what were his motivations for doing it, wanting it.  I pointed out contradictions or stuff that just wasn't so.

 

Hope this helps.

[dsayers]

Any updates?