The Narcissist’s Tale

[Three]

 I aspire to write a short book on abuse and wanted to share a decent junk of what I've been working on so far. It abruptly stops because its not finished. (for feedback.)



  The Narcissist’s Tale
             Sifting Through the Wreckage of the Self


                    

The Narcissist’s early childhood was a desolate wasteland. Rife with abuse and neglect, not only was this landscape devoid of the necessary sustenance required for a robust personality to develop, such as unconditional acceptance and warm intimacy, it was actively hostile. This malnourishment leaves the child’s self in an irrevocably stunted, incomplete, and damaged state.

The severity of this deep impact on the child’s psyche rivals that of a fatal flesh wound and thus leaves a lifelong legacy of inner pain and torment. With this existential agony being carried into adulthood, self medication becomes the fulcrum of the adult Narcissist’s life, with narcissistic supply being her drug of choice.

Narcissistic supply, simply put, is any kind of attention that provides the narcissist with a feeling of power and self worth. This supply can take the form of compliments, fame, adulation, adoration or even fear. The way in which this is different from a healthy desire for praise is that the healthy individual’s self-esteem is self-sustained and thus only requires honest praise for guidance and support, while the Narcissist is dependent on it and will accept it indiscriminately. In essence, it is a futile, yet tragic attempt to compensate for the lack love and attention she received as a child: to soothe inner pain. This is the essence of addiction. Addictions in many ways have metaphorical significance and reveal a lot about early childhood experiences. To borrow from Gabor Mate’s incredible book, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts,

“When infants are anxious or upset, they are offered a human or a plastic nipple-in other words, a relationship with either a natural nurturing object or something that closely resembles it. That’s how emotional nourishment and oral feeding or soothing become closely associated in the mind. Children who continue to suck their thumbs past infancy are attempting to soothe themselves; it’s always a sign of emotional distress. Except in rare cases of physical disease, the more obese a person is, the more emotionally starved they have been at some crucial period in their life”.

I would like to suggest that similarly, the more a person requires Narcissistic supply, the more starved they have been at some crucial period in their life.

Again, to support the point further with Gabor Mate’s book, “The roots of sex addiction also reach back to childhood experience. Sex addiction authority Dr. Aviel Goodman points out that the vast majority of female sex addicts were sexually abused as children, as were up to 40 percent of the men.”


Like the addict who desperately pierces a dirty needle through severely infected veins to meet her heroine quota, the Narcissist is not impartial to going through the most stomach turning of rituals to fill their void. By far the most contemptuous and vulgar forms of exploitation is when a Narcissist uses her children to achieve this end.








Children, to this kind of person, are no different from any other source of supply, except in the sense that it is the parent child relationship wherein the greatest of all power disparities lie. Because of this, children are a frequent target of choice. The Narcissist is able to exercise more control over her children than over any other source of supply as well as experience the most benefits. As beautiful as the Narcissist styles her hair through the most expensive salons, as detailed as she can sculpt her body through rigorous exercise routines, or as high as she can climb up the corporate ladder, there’s always going to be someone who doesn’t provide her any recognition for these achievements or even notice at all, for that matter.

Children, on the other hand, are always watching you, will always need you, will offer to dry your tears when you’re upset, will offer to rub your shoulders when you are tense, and will run merrily into your arms when you come home. To them you are omniscient, omnipotent, and infallible. Maybe it’s alone time and distance you want? No matter, children will eventually learn to place your needs above their own. They will drop everything, including their identity to be what you want and what you need. Anything to keep the bond between them and their caregiver vital.


They learn compliance from the severe repercussions that inevitably result from open displays of individual preferences, anger, boredom, disobedience, or contradiction. These perceived threats to the Narcissist’s fragile ego are also known as narcissistic injury. These imaginary “slights” more often than not provoke what is often called “Narcissistic Rage.” While this insanely petty and immature form of acting out might seem senseless to the outside observer, remember, to the Narcissist you are a possession, not a person. It is during this blind fit a of fury that the Narcissist takes off the disguise of posturing, pretense, and coaxing and reveals her true form. This is the most honest moment she will ever have with her victims.



    If the injured party is an adult, it is during this vulnerable period of hysterical raging when the target is unintentionally provided a choice. Now that the truth has become unwound, now that the narcissist is exposed, now that the target cannot unsee such a blatant expression of hatred towards herself,  she can make a decision based on reality. She can either choose to stay a host or flee from the danger. This is the risk that the abuser faces when opting to wield more overt tactics of control and domination: the source of the pain becomes visible.

Deep down, nobody likes to be bullied. Bullying fosters resentment, rage, humiliation and hatred. This is bad for the Narcissist because she is dependent on her target for Narcissistic Supply. It is this supply that is the lifeline which provides the Narcissist a means to escape her own lifeless existence. Much like a heroine addict off being cut off from her drug, when a Narcissist is cut off from their source of supply, the outcome is very ugly.

Being the master manipulator that the Narcissist is, she is fully aware of her dependence and is already one step ahead of her target. Anger is the immune system which serves to push back abusive people, much in the same way white antibodies fight off illness. This is why she must turn the target’s newfound certainty into confusion as well as diffuse the target’s outrage.

How does she achieve this? Like a totalitarian regime that will double down on brutality and propaganda whenever their is rising dissent, the narcissist must double down her efforts to maintain power. The difference is that the Narcissist recognizes that direct control is costly and demands  an exhaustive amount of time and energy. Her solution is brilliant. Rather than using brute force to make the target obey, she manipulates her target’s emotions. That way, the target bullies herself into submission.

Remember, much like how a dog is considered property to a human, to an abuser you also are a kind of pet. And just as the dog owner trains the canine to react to various stimuli and respond to particular emotional cues through various forms of conditioning, so too does the abuser condition her target in this way. The longer this conditioning goes on the more susceptible to emotional manipulation the target will be. The ways in which the abuser manipulates emotions are varied and plentiful, so it takes a bit of fine-tuning to get optimum results. However, once the abuser finds the right concoction of mind control tactics, this potion will be potent enough to put the target under a binding psychological spell.


One of the most common and effective forms of emotional manipulation that I’ve personally encountered is the manipulation of guilt.





Emotional Manipulation: Guilt




Eliciting guilt can be achieved in a variety of different ways, with the success of such attempts often relying on how seasoned the abuser is. Other factors come into play too, for the seasoned abuser understands that knowing the target can be just as valuable as knowing the craft. 

This is important since guilt is after all, to borrow Wiki’s definition, “ an experience that occurs when a person realizes orbelieves—accurately or not—that he or she has compromised his or her own standards of conduct or has violated a moralstandard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation.”

Without some knowledge of what the target values, an abuser is at best left engaging in the embarrassing spectacle of blindly throwing anything against the wall with the desperate hope that something will stick. 

Sometimes the effect can be quite funny, as is the case with this "guilt trip fail" that I found on the internet. 

Customer: “Hey, you guys sell fish food and supplies, but do you have any fish?”

Me: “No, sorry sir, we don’t sell pets.”

Customer: “Where do they sell pets?”

Me: “A pet store?”

Customer: “Is there one of those near here?”

Me: “Uhm, I really don’t know.”

Customer: “Will you take me to it?”

Me: “… no?”

Customer: “Sam Walton would take me to it!”

Me: “Sam Walton is dead.”

It is for this reason that this common breed of toxic behavior is often found overpopulating the interactions of our most intimate relationships. The longer somebody is around you and the closer you are to the person then naturally, the more information a person has about you to blackmail.

So, other than requiring knowledge of the target, how does the manipulator get the target to believe that he’s violated his own standards as well as being fully responsible for that violation.?


As we saw with the disgruntled Sam Walton loving customer, you can’t just throw out the guilt-tripping phrases point-blank. Effective guilt tripping is a set-up that requires an elaborate “generosity” phase that is designed to build to the success of later accusations of selfishness. During the “generosity” phase the abuser might offer to buy food, drinks, lend money, clean your room, ect.


What distinguishes this psuedo-generosity from real generosity is the underlying motive.
True generosity is to give without any expectation of reciprocity. Yet, that doesn’t stop many of us from experiencing a strong desire to return the favor in some way or another. It is this moment wherein we reveal our values and as a result, that desire value becomes high-jacked and used against us in phrases like, 

“What do you mean you can’t give me a discount! I’ve been a paying customer for nearly a decade! ”

Or, “You don’t want to go to your aunt’s birthday dinner? Remember all those times she’s been there for you? All the things she’s gotten you over the years? ”

Let’s say we don’t have a strong desire to return the favor? No matter. Since most of us still don’t want to be seen as selfish, the guilt tripper will appeal to this desire instead. While accusations of selfishness were implied in the earlier examples, sometimes it can be very explicit. 

“You don’t want to help your mother with the grass? That’s really selfish”


Abuser’s can become really creative and pile on layers of complexity to this trick. Sometimes the request for a favor is calculated in such a way as to be asked within a short period of time after the Abuser does something “altruistic”, like purchase an entire meal, the whole purpose of which being a ploy designed to lead into the eventual request.


Let’s say you’re tired of receiving gifts that will inevitably be used against you and so you ask the guilt tripper to refrain from providing any favors, gifts, or help. In order to ensure that she has some kind of leverage over you, the abuser isn’t going to be willing to agree to this request. So, how does she respond? Well, since empathetic people have a strong desire to not hurt others, the abuser will most likely opt to exploit this desire with crocodile tears. 

“You mean do don’t care about what I’ve done for you? I...I just wanted to make you happy. You’re hurting me!”. Then the tears ensue.


So, in this example you're given a guilt trip for not allowing ploys that are designed to set up guilt trips. 


It’s a no-win situation that wreaks havoc on the nervous system. Prolonged exposure to this kind of abuse transforms the healthy mechanism of guilt, which is designed to send tolerable internal cues to help one adjust his actions for the benefit of his own happiness, into a mechanism that signals for the adjustment of actions for the benefit of the abuser, to avoid punishment.

The only way to win is to not play.

[Blackfish64]

irrevocable

[ih-rev-uh-kuh-buh l]

 

adjective

1.  not to be revoked or recalled; unable to be repealed or annulled; unalterable:

an irrevocable decree.

 

You use this word in the first paragraph of your talk, which, to my mind, nullifies and makes pointless the remainder of your talk.  In doing so, you suggest there is nothing that can be done to help a narcissist, i.e., there is nothing a narcissist can do to help himself?

 

For example, a narcissist beats a child, chokes him, strangles him, lies to and manipulates him, sexually abuses him, nearly kills him on several occasions, thus creating another narcissist in his wake... there is no hope, therapy, recourse, recovery for either of them?  Even if they are willing participants in therapy?  I am not clear what it is you are trying to say here, but if that's what it is, I would have to disagree.  But, even so, if you are correct in that nothing can be done, what then?  What do we do with all the narcissists about? 

[Bipedal Primate]

  But, even so, if you are correct in that nothing can be done, what then?  What do we do with all the narcissists about?

The answer is 'No Contact Ever Again' or limited contact.

 

In my personal relationships, I believe *some* people deserve a second chance to make amends for verbally or emotionally abusing me. It is on me to tell them why I am unhappy with the relationship, and then it is on them to make amends. If they do not show me *with actions* they have regret by no longer verbally/emotionally abusing me, then No Contact is my solution.

 

As a society, I support ostracizing abusers who are:

1. unwilling to admit to the abuse they inflicted

2. unwilling to seek therapy/self knowledge

3. unwilling to *actively* show they no longer abuse people

  The difference is that the Narcissist recognizes that direct control is costly and demands  an exhaustive amount of time and energy. Her solution is brilliant. Rather than using brute force to make the target obey, she manipulates her target’s emotions. That way, the target bullies herself into submission. [/size]

 

Remember, much like how a dog is considered property to a human, to an abuser you also are a kind of pet. And just as the dog owner trains the canine to react to various stimuli and respond to particular emotional cues through various forms of conditioning, so too does the abuser condition her target in this way. The longer this conditioning goes on the more susceptible to emotional manipulation the target will be. The ways in which the abuser manipulates emotions are varied and plentiful, so it takes a bit of fine-tuning to get optimum results. However, once the abuser finds the right concoction of mind control tactics, this potion will be potent enough to put the target under a binding psychological spell.[/size]

 

One of the most common and effective forms of emotional manipulation that I’ve personally encountered is the manipulation of guilt. [/size]

I think your writing is intense and powerful; the dog analogy is so uncomfortable to read, it is spot on -- disgustingly accurate.

 

I look forward to reading more about what you have to say about guilt as a tool to manipulate.

 

Congratulations on such a great accomplishment. :-)

[Blackfish64]

He said, "This malnourishment leaves the child’s self in an irrevocably stunted, incomplete, and damaged state."

 

"Irrevocably" means, literally, that it cannot be changed.  So, according to this saying, the damaged child is damaged forever and nothing can be done for him or her, regardless of whether or not he or she has any further contact with the narcissist.  And the narcissist is a narcissist forever, and he can't change his ways even if he wants to or if others want him to. 

 

My question is, is that what the author is claiming?  And, again,  If that's the case, what's the point in therapy?  What's the point in addressing any of the issue at all?  It would be like telling rocks they can't be anything other than rocks.  A pointless, useless waste of time. 

[Starsky]

Thank you, Joel.

 

You put into words what is true and what I was never allowed to say.

 

You wrote about my mother's abuse and precisely how I perceived it. I very clearly felt her vicious hatred and her insatiable hunger for power over me. I knew it all along - my mother did not love me, she wanted me gone, dead. And nobody believed me. NOBODY. 

In her fits of rage she showed her true colors, always behind closed doors of course. I was struck by the point you made of how these bullies are being honest when rampaging through their victim's lives. I always sensed that but now it's all the more clearer than ever. 

 

The dog analogy is dead-on. To increase and maintain the power disparity my mother desperately needed to have the illusion of self-worth, she simultaneously applied emotional abuse. She installed a self-controlling and self-loathing chip in my brain. I felt like a conditioned dog most of the time, only that our real dog was treated far better. 

 

Thank you so much for the effort you put into your work and I can't wait to read more. 

[Three]

 

irrevocable

[ih-rev-uh-kuh-buh l]

 

adjective

1.  not to be revoked or recalled; unable to be repealed or annulled; unalterable:

an irrevocable decree.

 

You use this word in the first paragraph of your talk, which, to my mind, nullifies and makes pointless the remainder of your talk.  In doing so, you suggest there is nothing that can be done to help a narcissist, i.e., there is nothing a narcissist can do to help himself?

 

For example, a narcissist beats a child, chokes him, strangles him, lies to and manipulates him, sexually abuses him, nearly kills him on several occasions, thus creating another narcissist in his wake... there is no hope, therapy, recourse, recovery for either of them?  Even if they are willing participants in therapy?  I am not clear what it is you are trying to say here, but if that's what it is, I would have to disagree.  But, even so, if you are correct in that nothing can be done, what then?  What do we do with all the narcissists about? 

 

Hey, blackfish. 

 

I would submit that we don't damage kids brains in the first place.Prevention is always better than cure. 

 

 

 

It is true that a person who is psychologically wounded, who has endured intense abuse and neglect can change their brain through intensive work and modify behavior. This person might develop many skills and do great things.But even so, this will never be the kind of brain that they could have had they not endured trauma. 

 

Think of it like this. If I cut you're arm off, it will never grow back. Your body is irrevocably damaged. but, you can get a prosthetic or a hook or something and still function quite well. 

 

The line is inspired by Stefan Molyneux's explanation of why his youtube channel was previously called Stefbot. 

 

To get full context, check out the podcast on Irritation number 1763. 

 

"Its these tiny bullet like ping pong balls of opposition to everything you think and feel that, that is true and real, that what for me was the deathblow to the self that was. And the self that I have now is not the self that was. The self that was, the natural self, is dead, gone buried, decomposed, turned into ashed, and now washed into the bottom of the sea. The self that I have now is a good self in many ways, a self that I'm happy with in many ways, but it is a robot. A robot of reconstruction. It is not the natural self. The natural self, I will never experience that. And I see that achingly clearly as a parent with Isabella. I will never experience that natural self. There's no possibility. You cannot go back and undo all that damage. Only piece together. It just made sense why my youtube channel is called Stefbot. I am a robot of reconstuction. Not a natural thing. I was shoved into a grave of tiny little beings of opposition to everything that I thought and felt."

 

Also, if you haven't seen the Bomb in The Brain series, which talks about abuse on brain development, I'd highly recommend it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The answer is 'No Contact Ever Again' or limited contact.

 

In my personal relationships, I believe *some* people deserve a second chance to make amends for verbally or emotionally abusing me. It is on me to tell them why I am unhappy with the relationship, and then it is on them to make amends. If they do not show me *with actions* they have regret by no longer verbally/emotionally abusing me, then No Contact is my solution.

 

As a society, I support ostrasizing abusers who are:

1. unwilling to admit to the abuse they inflicted

2. unwilling to seek therapy/self knowledge

3. unwilling to *actively* show they no longer abuse people

 

I think your writing is intense and powerful; the dog analogy is so uncomfortable to read, it is spot on -- disgustingly accurate.

 

I look forward to reading more about what you have to say about guilt as a tool to manipulate.

 

Congratulations on such a great accomplishment. :-)

Hey, Sacha. As always, I really enjoy your contributions. Thank you so much for taking the time to read and reply. No contact is a great solution and often becomes the default position since the likely hood, from my experience, that they would change is very low.

 

I had been thinking about how I would know if my mom was giving a sincere apology.

 

My answer was, "unless you've contemplated, had strong urges or in fact restrained yourself several times, with an extraordinary amount of will power from throwing yourself off a bridge, then you haven't fully accepted the damage you've done to me. Not even including my siblings. "

 

But even then I wouldn't want to interact with her because I find no pleasure in her company when she's "nice."

 

 

So again, to tie this in the Black's reply, I would also like to add the preventative solution of not damaging children's brains in the first place. 

 

 

Thank you, Joel.

 

You put into words what is true and what I was never allowed to say.

 

You wrote about my mother's abuse and precisely how I perceived it. I very clearly felt her vicious hatred and her insatiable hunger for power over me. I knew it all along - my mother did not love me, she wanted me gone, dead. And nobody believed me. NOBODY. 

In her fits of rage she showed her true colors, always behind closed doors of course. I was struck by the point you made of how these bullies are being honest when rampaging through their victim's lives. I always sensed that but now it's all the more clearer than ever. 

 

The dog analogy is dead-on. To increase and maintain the power disparity my mother desperately needed to have the illusion of self-worth, she simultaneously applied emotional abuse. She installed a self-controlling and self-loathing chip in my brain. I felt like a conditioned dog most of the time, only that our real dog was treated far better. 

 

Thank you so much for the effort you put into your work and I can't wait to read more. 

My heart goes out to you Starsky. You did not deserve the abuse that was inflicted on you.

 

I'm glad that my writing was of some value to you. 

 

 

 

You might also find some value in this other short post I made. 

 

https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/42330-abuse-as-phasic/

 

 

Best Wishes

 

-Joel

[Blackfish64]

Joel,

Thanks for the response.  That is precisely what I was looking to be explained.  Now makes sense.  

 

I've watched, "The Bomb In The Brain" series twice.  Haven't heard of "Irritation number 1763" before.  Will look for that.  Thanks again, and for the sharing of your great piece.  

 

Dad is a narcissist.  Dealt with him for eighteen years.  The likelihood of them changing is indeed low.  Dad never changed, though I did go back to him years later and try to mend our relationship.  It wasn't the wrong thing to do, but it didn't work out.  I wasn't rattled by him any longer and he could not accept that.  Narcissists have to be in control of everyone and everything around them.  

 

He stopped in at a family gathering once and he and I got the job of going to the basement to fetch a foldaway table for extra places for a dinner that was to be served.  Dad doesn't do things like that.  Dad doesn't move tables, do dishes, cook, wash clothes, or do any work of any kind when there are others around.  It had been so long since I had seen him, I had forgotten his ways.  He sits on his arse and watches television and ignores everyone while they are preparing things for him and getting him cups of coffee.  He was already irked he had to go to the basement to get the table in the first place, and had already started to grumble.  He couldn't believe someone even had the nerve to ask him to do it.  He's the laziest, stupidest man alive.  When I picked up the table, he picked up the other end, and what should have been a simple movement up the stairs turned into a little temper tantrum for the old bugger as he quickly discovered I was "carrying it wrong goddamnit!" and dropped his end on the floor, then turned and put his fists on his hips and glared at me, as if waiting for my apology and explanation for my lowly existence, like I always had to do when I was a child.  I just looked at him with contempt and chuckled, making him feel stupid and embarrassed and frightened when he realized his ugliness hadn't moved or phased me a bit.  He didn't know what to do then.  I just stood there, solid as a rock.  "Whenever you're ready.  Some time tonight, I hope.  I'm getting hungry."  I said, patiently waiting for him to grow up.  Overgrown, spoiled children require lots of patience, you know.  He turned and lifted the table of a sudden and marched up the stairs in a huff without saying another word to me or even looking at me the rest of the evening.  There was no doubt in my mind the fright that he experienced was born of the thought that I was there now to conquer him, as he once thought he had conquered me.  But I am not a low-life, like him.  I was there because I was invited to dinner and to enjoy myself.  I had nothing to prove.  I had nothing to ask for or take from him.  I wanted nor needed nothing from him.      

 

I was proud of myself and the change I had made in me.  The bored, frightened, obedient child I once was had worked and grown beyond all the nonsense and saw through it, and refused to perpetuate it.  The chokings, beatings, and psychological abuse and maltreatment didn't stick.  I was pleasantly surprised at the way I handled myself.  The encounter was good for me.   

 

As for some others, it might not be a good idea to have any contact with an abuser.  That is entirely dependent on the individuals involved.           

[Three]

Joel,

Thanks for the response.  That is precisely what I was looking to be explained.  Now makes sense.  

 

I've watched, "The Bomb In The Brain" series twice.  Haven't heard of "Irritation number 1763" before.  Will look for that.  Thanks again, and for the sharing of your great piece.  

 

Dad is a narcissist.  Dealt with him for eighteen years.  The likelihood of them changing is indeed low.  Dad never changed, though I did go back to him years later and try to mend our relationship.  It wasn't the wrong thing to do, but it didn't work out.  I wasn't rattled by him any longer and he could not accept that.  Narcissists have to be in control of everyone and everything around them.  

 

He stopped in at a family gathering once and he and I got the job of going to the basement to fetch a foldaway table for extra places for a dinner that was to be served.  Dad doesn't do things like that.  Dad doesn't move tables, do dishes, cook, wash clothes, or do any work of any kind when there are others around.  It had been so long since I had seen him, I had forgotten his ways.  He sits on his arse and watches television and ignores everyone while they are preparing things for him and getting him cups of coffee.  He was already irked he had to go to the basement to get the table in the first place, and had already started to grumble.  He couldn't believe someone even had the nerve to ask him to do it.  He's the laziest, stupidest man alive.  When I picked up the table, he picked up the other end, and what should have been a simple movement up the stairs turned into a little temper tantrum for the old bugger as he quickly discovered I was "carrying it wrong goddamnit!" and dropped his end on the floor, then turned and put his fists on his hips and glared at me, as if waiting for my apology and explanation for my lowly existence, like I always had to do when I was a child.  I just looked at him with contempt and chuckled, making him feel stupid and embarrassed and frightened when he realized his ugliness hadn't moved or phased me a bit.  He didn't know what to do then.  I just stood there, solid as a rock.  "Whenever you're ready.  Some time tonight, I hope.  I'm getting hungry."  I said, patiently waiting for him to grow up.  Overgrown, spoiled children require lots of patience, you know.  He turned and lifted the table of a sudden and marched up the stairs in a huff without saying another word to me or even looking at me the rest of the evening.  There was no doubt in my mind the fright that he experienced was born of the thought that I was there now to conquer him, as he once thought he had conquered me.  But I am not a low-life, like him.  I was there because I was invited to dinner and to enjoy myself.  I had nothing to prove.  I had nothing to ask for or take from him.  I wanted nor needed nothing from him.      

 

I was proud of myself and the change I had made in me.  The bored, frightened, obedient child I once was had worked and grown beyond all the nonsense and saw through it, and refused to perpetuate it.  The chokings, beatings, and psychological abuse and maltreatment didn't stick.  I was pleasantly surprised at the way I handled myself.  The encounter was good for me.   

 

As for some others, it might not be a good idea to have any contact with an abuser.  That is entirely dependent on the individuals involved.           

I'm really sorry to hear about your father. That's wretched wretched behavior. 

 

I haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to Narcissistic fathers.  In many ways it's an entirely different experience and because of that I think warrants more writing into that topic. 

[Blackfish64]

Yes, Dad is a wretch.  No doubt about it.  He is a very fragile individual, as most narcissists are.  It doesn't take much to make them crack.  People are always surprised to learn what little sense of true self, if any, is actually holding these people together.  Their lives are a miserable wreck in many cases.  In the case of Dad, he stopped drinking when I was fourteen, but continued his dry-drunken rampage.  I preferred him when he was a common, narcissistic drunken hoodlum, instead of the dry drunk he became.  At least when he drank he laughed and had a good time sometimes.  As a dry drunk -- never!  He later admitted the only reason he got dried out in the first place was because the night he crashed his vehicle he went into treatment instead of going to jail for DWI.  He had to stay sober for a while after he got out of treatment, or he would be put in jail.  He just got into the habit of not drinking, I suppose.  Now, after all that time, he started drinking again at age seventy!  Said he owed it to himself.  he did it for a few years, until his rapidly declining health would no longer permit it.   

 

A few more words on the no contact with narcissists rule...  First, it does happen, it's rare, I know, but it does happen that a narcissist can turn himself around.  One of my friends from junior high school was the victim of a narcissistic father.  He was horribly abused.  His entire family was.  My friend had gotten married, had children of his own, and moved out of the house and was in his early thirties, still having an occasional encoutner with his Dad, when his Dad snapped out of it.  I don't know to this day what triggered the change in him, but whatever it was, it sent him to alcohol treatment, therapy, and then back to his family, where he was the one who initiated all the healing work to begin.  He actually came to his son, my friend, and to his other two sons, and his daughter and apologized to them and encouraged all of them to seek therapy with him.  He knew they had troubles of their own on account of himself and his behavior.  Make a long story short, he saved his family, and was forever grateful he still had time and the means in his life to do so.  He was truly a changed man.  I saw him a few times after his change, and just before he died, and I didn't recognize the man.  I was blown away.  Like I said, it's very rare this happens, so people shouldn't count on it.     

 

And no contact isn't always a choice.  A girl friend I knew back in the Midwest had a narcissistic husband, who turned out to be incredibly abusive.  They had two children together.  By the time she had had enough and divorced him, the courts had awarded joint custody, so she had the unbearable pain of handing over her two children to this nut whenever it was his turn to have them.  She likely could have gotten a restraining order on him, but that wouldn't do her children any good.  He would have contact with them anyway.    When the children got old enough, they chose to live with their mother before going off on their own.  

 

And sometimes the narcissist just doesn't care about restraining orders and you telling them to leave you alone.  They stalk and find people and have contact with them anyway.  Lots of people end up dead every year as a result.  Sometimes we must look over our shoulder whether or not we like it.  Narcissists are nothing to play with.     

 

Again, every case is individual, is different.  

 

And in the workplace, there are plenty of narcissistic people about.  In fact, as much as over ninety percent of managers are narcissists.  The company is always looking for leadership skills in managers, and narcissists are extremely adept at demonstrating just what the inteviewer is looking for and land the job.  Thankfully, they are not as adept at actually doing the job as they are at interviewing for it and their incompetence often gets them terminated, but they are there just the same, in all kinds of work.  

 

I'm not saying the no contact rule can't work, but sometimes it just isn't possible to do that.   

[Three]

I agree that some peoples lives, due to bad choices and other factors, have become ruined to the point that even the best available option for improvement still isn't great. It is for this reason that as philosophers, we must stress prevention. Prevention is always better than cure and for those who are sick beyond cure, well, let their lives serve as a warning. With all due sympathy of course. 

Know the red flags for narcissism in order to avoid abusive people and don't create them int the first place through abuse and neglect.

Evil is a virus that replicates through abuse.

[Blackfish64]

Agreed.  100%.

 

Narcissists would have no choice but to improve their behavior if it weren't for all the support they are given, for all the people who help them along, wittingly and/or unwittingly. 

[QueechoFeecho]

In case it is helpful to any...podcast 1670 is on Narcissism. The very beginning goss through definitions and traits of them and different kinds of them.

 

As I listened I played the game of checking people in life who were like or guaranteed narcissists.

[Starsky]

I don't mean to hijack your thread, Joel but somebody else on the forum very recently posted a you tube link and I've been listening to that guy the whole day. I'll post 2 links below that struck me just the way your work did, Joel. I now have the validation that my mother did all that shit ON PURPOSE. 

 

 

[Blackfish64]

Yeah, this guy is great.  Dr. Sam is great, too!  http://www.drsam.tv/2014/02/11/beware-of-she-wolves/

[Blackfish64]

Also pretty much anything, especially his YouTube videos, by Sam Vaknin are monster good for learning about narcissism.  

[Three]

I don't mean to hijack your thread, Joel but somebody else on the forum very recently posted a you tube link and I've been listening to that guy the whole day. I'll post 2 links below that struck me just the way your work did, Joel. I now have the validation that my mother did all that shit ON PURPOSE. 

 

 

 

Thank you! I've seen his channel and like his videos as well.

 

 

Also pretty much anything, especially his YouTube videos, by Sam Vaknin are monster good for learning about narcissism.  

 

Dr. Sam Vaknin has great stuff too!

[Good man]

OLD

[Three]

Hey, Joseph. 

So, why not change your profile name to 'Joseph the individual with his own unique combination of characteristics because people cannot be put into categories'?   


Here's a post I made briefly sharing what I found to be the difference between Narcissism and Sociopathy you might find interesting. 

https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/39611-vengeance-and-out-sun-bathing-the-lizard-sociopathy-is-nothing-to-envy/