What would you do or say, if anything?

[A__]

You're walking down a crowded street when you happen to come face to face with a particularly evil political ruler. Do you take the possibly one time chance in a lifetime to say a little something?

 

This happened with a friend in Manhattan: Bill Clinton was walking with a couple of body guards and my friend was able to exchange a few words with him, calling him out on a few of his actions loudly but calmly.

 

Perhaps because this friend is quite tall, good looking and equipped with a strong voice, Clinton took notice and actually engaged, smiling and asking in his notorious slick manner "which countries did I invade?" which my friend answered adeptly and without hesitation. Of course Clinton denied the charges and with his body guards leading, slinked away. I believe it made a few people in the area take notice but I wonder.

 

Political individuals who commit crimes legal and otherwise, who support torture and unecessary war walk freely and often proudly among us in broad daylight either unrecognized completely or for what they are and even get paid great amounts of money for public appearances.

It makes me wonder what others would do or say, if anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[J. D. Stembal]

If they walk freely and proudly among us, why do they hire body guards? Also, I wonder how close your friend was to being shot. As soon as he engaged Clinton, the guards must have had one hand on their weapon, ready to unholster it.

 

If it was me and I had a chance to say something to Clinton, I would ask him how the Lewinsky cigar tasted (assuming he smoked it), and then finish it off with an ironic comment like, "If only all presidents could be honored by impeachment." There is absolute no reason to engage in a serious discussion. Where could it possibly go except badly for you?

[ancapzeebo]

I'd like to confront Elizabeth Warren.  

[dsayers]

We live in a society that treats these people as if they're in a different moral category. Can you imagine ANY scenario where his bodyguards could've killed your friend and suffered ANY consequences for it? If he was in the forest and saw a grizzly bear, would he try to get its attention and rationalize with it? Can you imagine ANY scenario where his interaction with Mr. Clinton could've resulted in ANY step away from slavery or towards freedom?

 

We experience anxiety as a motivator. It is important for our own health and well-being that we manage our anxieties in productive ways. I think your friend behaved in a way that is not consistent with self-preservation.

 

Please keep in mind that I'm not judging from atop an ivory tower here. I was once in a nearly identical situation and I played it wrong also.

[DCLugi]

Perhaps for the sake of the surrounding people but never to get an honest answer from the Lord and Master.

[A__]

I appreciate the responses from everybody. 

 

We live in a society that treats these people as if they're in a different moral category. Can you imagine ANY scenario where his bodyguards could've killed your friend and suffered ANY consequences for it? If he was in the forest and saw a grizzly bear, would he try to get its attention and rationalize with it? Can you imagine ANY scenario where his interaction with Mr. Clinton could've resulted in ANY step away from slavery or towards freedom?

 

Yes albeit it’s farfetched. One person can make a difference by taking a risk and speaking up. It could cause a chain reaction, a butterfly-effect. Doesn’t Copblock.org confront Grizzly bears on a regular basis? It spreads awareness. How do we measure steps away from slavery? I’m not sure.

 

 

We experience anxiety as a motivator. It is important for our own health and well-being that we manage our anxieties in productive ways. I think your friend behaved in a way that is not consistent with self-preservation.

Couldn't his motive have been something besides anxiety? 

 

 

 

Please keep in mind that I'm not judging from atop an ivory tower here. I was once in a nearly identical situation and I played it wrong also.

 

I'm very interested in hearing your experience if you wouldn't mind.

[dsayers]

Doesn’t Copblock.org confront Grizzly bears on a regular basis? It spreads awareness. How do we measure steps away from slavery? I’m not sure.

 

For last year's CopBlock tour, I facilitated the Toledo meetup. I've shaken Pete Eyre's hand and I have a lot of respect for the guy. I cannot deny that some of the intellectual items he's posted on CB were instrumental in getting me to Larken Rose, which got me to Stef, which allowed me to fully unplug from the Matrix.

 

That said (and again, I once fell into this category), throwing yourself onto the grenade might spread awareness, but there are ways of spreading awareness that are far less harmful to a person. How much more awareness could be spread if people like Pete Eyre, Adam Kokesh, Lauren Canario, Dave Ridley, etc were out walking the streets instead of being held captive in a cage?

 

Here in the US, we're lucky enough to not be living under an ideological dictatorship. As long as you pay the mafia their protection money, they don't much care what awareness you spread with your words. Part of this is because most of us continue to ask the wrong questions. How do we measure steps away from slavery? Each mind that accepts property rights (including that of children) is another mind that's free. Another cortex that can spread the word and help others to become free. This is so much more easily facilitated outside of a cage.

 

Couldn't his motive have been something besides anxiety? 

 

Such as? I mean, is he a rational person? Assuming my theory of provoking a monster is accurate, then his behavior is an irrational one that conflicts with self-preservation. If he's a rational person, I see this as only being attributable to a poorly constructed effort to manage anxiety. I'm no expert though, so I'm certainly open to other possibilities.

 

 

As for my story, the short version is: Cops pull me over for a non-crime at rifle point. My papers are in order, but I'm mouthing off to them because hey, that's MY sandwich (sorry, I enjoy the bear/campsite analogy). As a result, they hold me for 4 hours while they make up something to charge me with, steal my guns for a year, and would've cost me a fortune if it weren't for the fact that my case was so clean that a local organization funded my defense (NRA was even on deck for the appeal process). Even still, it cost the productivity of all the kind folks who pitched in. Then after they dropped the charges a year later, that same Sargeant was harassing me until my lawyer managed to call him off.

 

If I had kept my mouth shut, they would've seen my papers were in order, that it was a misunderstanding on the part of the person who placed the phone call (and their dispatcher), and I likely would've been released with all my property within the half hour. And if I had the wisdom to understand that psychopaths don't play by their rules and that the reality of my situation was no different from a beast/mugger (except that the public views this mafia as legitimate), I most certainly would have played along for self-preservation's sake. I could've been killed on that day and all they would have had to say was that I drew on them and NOBODY would've even questioned it.

[J. D. Stembal]

There are only four acceptable things you should ever say to law enforcement or government agent. The more you say, the worse your outcome will be.

 

1. I will not answer questions./I wish to remain silent.

2. Am I being detained?

3. Am I free to go?

4. Is that an order?

 

 

[shirgall]

There are only four acceptable things you should ever say to law enforcement or government agent.

 

 

With one exception: If you are a victim of a crime, tell the cops that you were a victim and point out the evidence of that crime.

[cynicist]

There are only four acceptable things you should ever say to law enforcement or government agent. The more you say, the worse your outcome will be.

 

1. I will not answer questions./I wish to remain silent.

2. Am I being detained?

3. Am I free to go?

4. Is that an order?

 

I've heard this advice before and it made sense, and still does from a legal liability standpoint, but I'm not sure I'd ever use it in those situations. Putting myself in their trigger-happy shoes, wouldn't this be a provocation? I can imagine them now thinking:

 

"What's he so jumpy about? What's he hiding?"

"Well this guy's clearly a trouble-maker, why can't he just get with the program?"

"What a smartass, I'll show him he doesn't know as much as he thinks"

"Oh it's one of those cop haters, I'll give him something to really hate"

 

I'm more apt to be as polite/pleasant as possible and compliant until I'm out of earshot. I mean you never know when the guy has had a bad day and is going to take it out on you for this since you stand out. It's not like there are actual rules that will get him fired for misconduct unless someone wants him gone. At worst he'll get a suspension.

[bootoo]

Assholes get 0 time or attention - if you start a confrontation then you contribute to the reason they are taking our money and buying security -  do   not   engage 

[tasmlab]

I met Barbara Bush once on a beach in Kennebunkport where we were vacationing.  She complimented our kids, told us the George Sr. sleeps with the dog, and we talked about the best place to adopt a dog.  My boy was playing with their dog, hence so much dog talk.

 

Never did I say "You know, you gave birth to and raised one of the most murderous assholes the world has seen."  Maybe I should have.

 

I met Ron Paul once, but it wasn't like I needed to remind him that taxes and war and such are bad.

[Brentb]

I wouldn't bother attempting to debate. Ostracism works in general. Politicians have pretty thick skin and seem to be delusional, so I don't know how well it would work on them but it's worth a try. If we're forced to let mass murders walk the streets freely, we can at least try to knock down their pride a little.

[QueechoFeecho]

Can you actually knock down the pride of a sociopath or psychopath?

[Brentb]

Can you actually knock down the pride of a sociopath or psychopath?

 

 

I think so. He won't actually feel hurt by your disapproval, like a more normal person, but a sociopath can register the information that he's not well-liked. The sociopath would try to avoid doing things that make him less likable because being likable more easily allows him to manipulate people.

 

I've heard that Bill Clinton in particular always had to be liked by everyone. If he walked into a room and someone didn't care for him, he would focus on that person with all the charm and flattery that he could muster until he could get them to like him.

[luxfelix]

I think so. He won't actually feel hurt by your disapproval, like a more normal person, but a sociopath can register the information that he's not well-liked. The sociopath would try to avoid doing things that make him less likable because being likable more easily allows him to manipulate people.

 

I've heard that Bill Clinton in particular always had to be liked by everyone. If he walked into a room and someone didn't care for him, he would focus on that person with all the charm and flattery that he could muster until he could get them to like him.

 

With reference to Stefan Molyneux's video about Robin Williams, it sounds like Bill Clinton also has to be himself + well-liked; however, whereas Robin Williams worked to provide value (via comedy) to others, Bill Clinton... took a darker path... 

[Kaylee]

I see a lot of correlation between political people and internet trolls. Don't feed the trolls. 

[PGP]

I have fond memories of Henry Kissinger getting very upset when he was confronted as a war-criminal here.

I have sickening memories of when Barack Obama came here and got the usual sycophantic reception. Disgusting.

I hope never to meet any of these creatures in person. Enough ordinary dangerous people knocking around as it is.

[shirgall]

One should never engage in an argument unless all participants are capable of changing their mind.

[J. D. Stembal]

I've heard this advice before and it made sense, and still does from a legal liability standpoint, but I'm not sure I'd ever use it in those situations. Putting myself in their trigger-happy shoes, wouldn't this be a provocation? I can imagine them now thinking:

 

"What's he so jumpy about? What's he hiding?"

"Well this guy's clearly a trouble-maker, why can't he just get with the program?"

"What a smartass, I'll show him he doesn't know as much as he thinks"

"Oh it's one of those cop haters, I'll give him something to really hate"

 

I'm more apt to be as polite/pleasant as possible and compliant until I'm out of earshot. I mean you never know when the guy has had a bad day and is going to take it out on you for this since you stand out. It's not like there are actual rules that will get him fired for misconduct unless someone wants him gone. At worst he'll get a suspension.

 

Your guilt or non-guilt is of no importance here, so it's irrelevant what the cop thinks you are hiding. You are much more likely to get shafted if you do the cop's bidding than sticking up for your rights. I didn't say that you should not be polite or pleasant, but not answering questions is the best strategy for staying out of hot water. Don't do anything you are asked unless ordered to at gun point. I would also keep a recording device on you or in your car to get the evidence if anything crazy goes down.

[cynicist]

Your guilt or non-guilt is of no importance here, so it's irrelevant what the cop thinks you are hiding. 

 

Sure, but it is relevant that he thinks you are hiding something. That's what I meant by provocation. If you blend into the crowd wouldn't he be more likely to wave you on like the majority of people that he meets? 

 

You are much more likely to get shafted if you do the cop's bidding than sticking up for your rights.

 

Don't do anything you are asked unless ordered to at gun point. 

 

What?!?! Sorry for the incredulity but that sounds like a recipe for certain disaster to me. 

[J. D. Stembal]

Sure, but it is relevant that he thinks you are hiding something. That's what I meant by provocation. If you blend into the crowd wouldn't he be more likely to wave you on like the majority of people that he meets? 

 

 

What?!?! Sorry for the incredulity but that sounds like a recipe for certain disaster to me. 

 

You can do what the LEO wants you to do and suffer the consequences. From my handful of run-ins with police, I know they love to go on fishing expeditions, even if you are squeaky clean. It's been a long while since I've had the honor of being pulled over, but I was always friendly and compliant with police. I've had my car searched twice while being detained for over about an hour each time, arrested once (not a traffic stop), and patted down a few times (not at TSA screenings, but by uniformed officers). I would have been better off not talking and sticking up for my rights, because the more I talked, the more questions I answered, the more likely I was to admit guilt to something criminal that I was not aware of being a problem. The criminal code is designed so that LEOs can haul you in on anything if they want. You will break a law, it's jut a matter of time until you are caught. Answering questions gets you in the position to be caught doing something illegal. LEOs will also lie to you to intimidate you or get you to admit things, as seen in the videos I linked. I've had cops lie to me several times, using it as an phony excuse to search me. You have to consent to a search when there is no probable cause, and no warrant. I was stupid and consented, wasting my time while the cops get paid.

 

I would not do or answer anything a cop says to you unless it has the power of lethal force behind it. Then it's not a moral choice any more. It is in your best interest to decline to do anything unless you are ordered to do so. 

[cynicist]

You can do what the LEO wants you to do and suffer the consequences. 

 

It's not either-or. I wouldn't consent to a search of my property, that's just too invasive. I think we probably would agree more than it seems here, it's just more context-specific than it seems at first glance. (If pulled over by a cop I'm sure you wouldn't wait for him to pull out his gun before you rolled down your windows, for example )

[J. D. Stembal]

It's not either-or. I wouldn't consent to a search of my property, that's just too invasive. I think we probably would agree more than it seems here, it's just more context-specific than it seems at first glance. (If pulled over by a cop I'm sure you wouldn't wait for him to pull out his gun before you rolled down your windows, for example )

 

Opening the car window a bit so you can produce ID, registration, and proof of insurance doesn't provide the police with any incriminating evidence unless you're drunk or smoking pot. Barring that, you are not required to do anything else or answer any questions (4th and 5th Amendments). Most police, if they are suspicious of you (they pulled you over for a reason), will start to ask innocuous sounding questions after looking at your ID and registration (to see if they match with what showed up on their computer when they ran your license plate) like where you are going. At this point, you say "I'm not answering questions."

 

I didn't intend to paint a traffic stop as a false dichotomy. You risk exposing yourself to consequences if you comply with the police. By saying nothing, you shut the options down to two. If you look squeaky clean, which you probably are, they have to let you go. Otherwise, they have to arrest you and process you with nothing to go on. This will be a nightmare of paperwork for them and you will walk. This is why I said to do nothing unless they draw down on you and command you to exit the vehicle and lay on the ground.

[cynicist]

I didn't intend to paint a traffic stop as a false dichotomy. You risk exposing yourself to consequences if you comply with the police. By saying nothing, you shut the options down to two. If you look squeaky clean, which you probably are, they have to let you go. Otherwise, they have to arrest you and process you with nothing to go on. This will be a nightmare of paperwork for them and you will walk. This is why I said to do nothing unless they draw down on you and command you to exit the vehicle and lay on the ground.

 

In that case what you are saying seems quite reasonable and not different from what I would do. By compliance I meant what is required by law and with a pleasant attitude. (that part isn't required but I like to humor people sometimes ) I'm not going to make their jobs easier at my expense lol. Thanks for explaining it so well.

[AustinJames]

I would simply glare.... End of story-- unless his bodyguards decided to detain me.

[luxfelix]

I would simply glare.... End of story-- unless his bodyguards decided to detain me.

 

Take your pick: 

 

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130920114055/villains/images/c/c5/Ed_deadly_glare.png

 

http://s2.photobucket.com/user/laussica/media/naruto/sasukeandnarutohaty.jpg.html

 

http://media0.giphy.com/media/4w6g6yOWJYtm8/200_s.gif

 

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/278/8/7/bat_glare_by_war_journalist-d3051fa.jpg

[J. D. Stembal]

Yes, give Slick Willy the Fry Stare!

[Lee Cruz]

 

I think this Feminist Protester upped the ante!