dsayers Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Manipulators and abusers who are sophisticated enough to try and not get caught prefer to use language rather than physical violence. The cycle of subjugation spans pretty much all of recorded history so it's no surprise that those who are inundated with it from birth might have difficulty identifying tell tale signs, even in their own behaviors. I've just received a PM that I wanted to share (anonymously) as a sort of test for these tell tale signs: Genuinely curious; Is there a reason why you like to throw around accusations of others being manipulative? Serious question? Based on this text alone, is this person being manipulative? If so, how do you know? How many tell tale signs are present here? I am not an expert, but I can identify two signs of manipulation here. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prolix Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Or you could have just replied to my PM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifegoesonbrah Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Did you start a new thread to manipulate others to agree with you about the "anonymous" user by taking his question out of context of the original discussion? lulz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prolix Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Manipulators and abusers who are sophisticated enough to try and not get caught prefer to use language rather than physical violence. The cycle of subjugation spans pretty much all of recorded history so it's no surprise that those who are inundated with it from birth might have difficulty identifying tell tale signs, even in their own behaviors. I've just received a PM that I wanted to share (anonymously) as a sort of test for these tell tale signs: Based on this text alone, is this person being manipulative? If so, how do you know? How many tell tale signs are present here? I am not an expert, but I can identify two signs of manipulation here. And what are the two signs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Serene Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I'm not very good about this stuff either, but I see it as manipulative. First off, beginning with "genuinely curious" is framing the rest of the question as such, and is otherwise unnecessary. Then the question itself is implicitly stating that OP likes throwing around accusations of manipulation without any proof or argument, which itself is "throwing around an accusation of manipulation". Its a self-detonating argument. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFPercush Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 The "you like " part raises a flag for me. Would that be a strawman - to make a claim about dsayers' motives? I think there is a non manipulative way to ask the question: "Why do you often say that others are being manipulative?" I think that would express genuine curiosity. Even better, would be to ask about the specific topic and say "Why is my argument manipulative?" But yes, I agree, given the way it's phrased. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prolix Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Yea? I think there is an anagram and some occult symbolism pertaining to building 7 in there also. I was genuinely curious and added that to be clear. And yea, I could have worded it better like, "I have seen you calling people manipulative". But really, spare me the decoding of what I am implicitly saying. I did not mention anything about "without any proof" you just crowbar'd that into my statements. This is all really baffling to me. I really just wanted to know why he was doing this repetitively. Yea, if you go into it looking for deception and manipulation you can find it in anything. but I really wanted to know, I was actually genuinely curious. Now, instead of answering me, he just made this thread to accuse me of being manipulative. Pretty disappointing... I do agree with you on one thing however, you are not very good at this stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WasatchMan Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I was genuinely curious and added that to be clear. And yea, I could have worded it better like, "I have seen you calling people manipulative". But really, spare me the decoding of what I am implicitly saying. I did not mention anything about "without any proof" you just crowbar'd that into my statements. This is all really baffling to me. I really just wanted to know why he was doing this repetitively. Yea, if you go into it looking for deception and manipulation you can find it in anything. but I really wanted to know, I was actually genuinely curious. prolix, I know given some of our previous exchanges on here you may not want or care to hear from me on this topic, but I would tell you that your use of words in the PM are a little problematic. Whether dsayers does like to "throw around accusations" or not (I have not experienced this), you do have to understand that your question is in the form of an accusation itself. If I received this message, I would view it as an emotionally charged passive aggressive dig, not genuine curiosity. I am not saying that was your actual intent, because, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I know in the heat of the moment I have worded things in ways that I later see as problematic, or emotionally slanted. In the future, if you are genuinely curious about interactions with people, I would frame the question as what you have personally experienced during the interaction (RTR), instead of coming out of the gate telling someone they "throw around accusation". This was not fair to dsayers because he has no way to respond except defensively. In this case, it could have been something like "During our exchange in XXXX, I have personally felt that you have accused me of things that I don't find fair. I am not sure if this was your intent, but this is the way I experienced it. One example of where this happened is XXXX. If you don't mind, could you please clarify what you meant by this or why it was directed at me, because I am genuinely curious and would like to better my experience on the forum moving forward." 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prolix Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 This is really absurd. I was simply asking a question. To Go and start this thread and try and make a big deal out of it is something problematic. All I did was ask a question. To what end would I be manipulating asking a question? How is my phrasing of a simple question more problematic than him starting a thread about a PM? I don't think I need to word things all padded and what not as you suggested. It was a straight question with a small figure of speech that assumes that if he is doing it others, then he likes to do it. And yea, maybe the slight implication that he is doing it a lot, because he is. I think by starting this thread and not answering the question he is being something. I don't even want to call it anything but it is very disturbing to me. Because I was simply asking a question. WasatchMan. I want you to take your standards and apply them to the OP. It was not fair to me for him to make this thread by your standards. He already was calling me manipulative, without supporting that assertion, in another thread. Then whan I simply ask him about it. He makes this thread. Yea, fuck it, nothing manipulative, dishonest and aggressive about that. This thread is very insulting and is typical of the very poor communication I see all over this board. Very disturbing and disappointing indeed. We are suppose to be better than this here... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 Great feedback here. When I first received the PM, I took issue with the phrase "throw around" and the word "accusations." If I observe an apple fall to the ground, to say that the apple fell to the ground is not an accusation. To call it an accusation is to redefine the neutral act of observation as a fault of the person doing the observing. The phrase throw around takes something non-physical and gives it a physical overtone. Whether the intent is to portray it as violent or reckless, it too redefines the neutral act of observation as dangerous. I didn't feel I could answer the question because through this manipulative language, it was clear no question was being asked. The conclusion was already made and was issued as the very accusation it pretended to frown upon. There was no curiosity. There was no room for discussion. Which is also why I knew it would not be fruitful to try and point out the manipulative language it contained. I was hoping that others being able to point it out would help the person to understand that it wasn't just me. I know that if I was using manipulative language UNINTENTIONALLY, that it being pointed out would be a valuable opportunity for self-knowledge. If however I was using it intentionally, then I would definitely want to appeal to the insecurities of somebody that could see through it and double down in the face of any attempt to rationally shrug it off. Anyways, thanks for the feedback. It helped me to see aspects of it that I wasn't able to on my own. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prolix Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Ok, when you call people names, like manipulative, you have to support those claims. You are "throwing around" the claim without supporting it. I think it is reckless to do that. That is why I am asking you about it. Yes, I used the word "accusations" because that is all they are until you support them. Which you have not done. https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/42441-funny-stefan-puppet/?p=388734 dsayers, on 08 Nov 2014 - 5:58 PM, said:I double checked and you weren't called a name once. We're done here. It's kind of awe-inspiring to watch manipulators pick up on certain words and use them in their attempts to manipulate others. How empathetic is it to say that anybody that disagrees with you must not be empathetic? First you try and diminish this other guys experience by saying it didn't happen, you were 100% wrong there. People called him names, you denied it, you were wrong, you never replied or took responsibility for that error, but instead you were sarcastic about it. Then here you call me a manipulator without any evidence. I replied to you to tell you that I never said that and you directly put words in my mouth. Again you were 100% wrong. In the time you created this thread you could reply to either of those blatant errors on your part. But instead you make this thread to highlight how manipulative I am being when I ask why you are doing what you are doing. I don't enjoy being called a manipulator without evidence. So that sparked genuine curiosity. Like, all you have to do is tell me why, but you do all this instead, now I am curious about that as well. I didn't say nonfactual things to/about you with negative intentions. No, you did that to me. That is why I am asking. This could not have anything to do with you just being confronted about factual errors you made that were actually pejorative towards other members? Could it? Is it even possible that it was easier to just double down, without any evidence, than to admit that maybe you made some factual errors at the expense of others? Is it not manipulative to post this without context of the other thread where I just confronted you on two nonfactual statements you made which you did not reply to? Isn't that something people would like to know coming into this thread, like, did you just throw around accusations without supporting it, before they evaluate the PM and the real motivations behind posting this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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