Debt: dun-dun-dunnnnnn! - But I refuse to pay?

[ellisante35]

I refuse to pay my student loan debts.

The banks are criminals

The governments are criminals.

The contracts are not valid.

As an act of civil disobediance I refuse to pay and I'm proud to defend that decision.

 

Please let me know what you think.

 

 

[dsayers]

If you borrowed money stating you would repay it, to not repay it would not be civil disobedience. It wouldn't be civil because theft is the initiation of the use of force and it wouldn't be disobedience since the obligation you're shirking is one you imposed upon yourself.

[ellisante35]

What about a debt, as a contact, becoming invalid.  Is that possible?  What are your thoughts on the elements of a valid contract?

[villagewisdom]

Valid contract or not, whatever.

 

If you qualify for getting back some of the money they stole from you via tax refund, they will take it for the loan balance. If you don't earn for a while they will create a tax lien. Then if you buy anything with a title or that is registered as personal property for tax theft purposes, they will take it from you. 

 

You will never be able to own anything once you have a federal tax lien attached to you. You will not own a house or car. You may pay cash for the property but you are wasting your money because they will send people to pick it up and haul it away. 

 

The accrued interest and penalties will be more than the amount borrowed in a couple of years. Then they will add interest and penalties on that balance of loan, interest and penalties so it grows exponentially. A student loan does not clear on a bankruptcy.

 

You can stomp your feet and pitch a fit and refuse to play nicely with the thugs. But it won't change the fact that you walked into the prison by your own choices and they will make you pay. For the rest of your life if need be, they will make you pay. 

 

Not my experience but the experience of people I know. Just sayin .....

[Pepin]

If you can prove that you were under the influence during the time of agreeing to go to college, and during college, then you might be able to say that you were taken advantage of while under the influence. It'd have to be something like alcohol, as marijuana doesn't really impair judgement, and you'd likely need documentation proving you got a liver transplant recently.

 

To be more serious, refusing to pay is going to complicate your life to an extreme degree, especially in terms of interest. It is completely ok to not pay if you accept the risk of garnished wages, no credit, little financial opportunity, and debtors prison... But if you want to avoid these things then paying it off ASAP is your best bet.

 

It is the same with paying taxing. My reasons for paying them is because I don't see any benefit to not paying them. Nobody will care, nobody will know, and the only impact it would make is on my quality of life.

[ellisante35]

Valid contract or not, whatever.

 

If you qualify for getting back some of the money they stole from you via tax refund, they will take it for the loan balance. If you don't earn for a while they will create a tax lien. Then if you buy anything with a title or that is registered as personal property for tax theft purposes, they will take it from you. 

 

You will never be able to own anything once you have a federal tax lien attached to you. You will not own a house or car. You may pay cash for the property but you are wasting your money because they will send people to pick it up and haul it away. 

 

The accrued interest and penalties will be more than the amount borrowed in a couple of years. Then they will add interest and penalties on that balance of loan, interest and penalties so it grows exponentially. A student loan does not clear on a bankruptcy.

 

You can stomp your feet and pitch a fit and refuse to play nicely with the thugs. But it won't change the fact that you walked into the prison by your own choices and they will make you pay. For the rest of your life if need be, they will make you pay. 

 

Not my experience but the experience of people I know. Just sayin .....

 

Valid contract or not, whatever.

 

If you qualify for getting back some of the money they stole from you via tax refund, they will take it for the loan balance. If you don't earn for a while they will create a tax lien. Then if you buy anything with a title or that is registered as personal property for tax theft purposes, they will take it from you. 

 

You will never be able to own anything once you have a federal tax lien attached to you. You will not own a house or car. You may pay cash for the property but you are wasting your money because they will send people to pick it up and haul it away. 

 

The accrued interest and penalties will be more than the amount borrowed in a couple of years. Then they will add interest and penalties on that balance of loan, interest and penalties so it grows exponentially. A student loan does not clear on a bankruptcy.

 

You can stomp your feet and pitch a fit and refuse to play nicely with the thugs. But it won't change the fact that you walked into the prison by your own choices and they will make you pay. For the rest of your life if need be, they will make you pay. 

 

Not my experience but the experience of people I know. Just sayin .....

Wow, a little condesending saying that I'm 'pitching a fit."  Has anyone said that to you about a moral stance that you have taken?

I'm an accountant persuing a CPA certification and I'm well aware of the consequences of a defaulted loan.  I'm not really stomping my feet, I'm living a life that I want others to be able to live and a life I'm comfortable living.  I will sleep like a baby at night knowing my resources don't fund criminals and I was never scared to face reprecusitons for my actions.  I pay my taxes as I don;t want to go to jail, but that is pretty much the extent to which I'm willing to concede.

Do you think courage is childish behavior?

If you can prove that you were under the influence during the time of agreeing to go to college, and during college, then you might be able to say that you were taken advantage of while under the influence. It'd have to be something like alcohol, as marijuana doesn't really impair judgement, and you'd likely need documentation proving you got a liver transplant recently.

 

To be more serious, refusing to pay is going to complicate your life to an extreme degree, especially in terms of interest. It is completely ok to not pay if you accept the risk of garnished wages, no credit, little financial opportunity, and debtors prison... But if you want to avoid these things then paying it off ASAP is your best bet.

 

It is the same with paying taxing. My reasons for paying them is because I don't see any benefit to not paying them. Nobody will care, nobody will know, and the only impact it would make is on my quality of life.

Thanks for the reccomendation!

Valid contract or not, whatever.

 

If you qualify for getting back some of the money they stole from you via tax refund, they will take it for the loan balance. If you don't earn for a while they will create a tax lien. Then if you buy anything with a title or that is registered as personal property for tax theft purposes, they will take it from you. 

 

You will never be able to own anything once you have a federal tax lien attached to you. You will not own a house or car. You may pay cash for the property but you are wasting your money because they will send people to pick it up and haul it away. 

 

The accrued interest and penalties will be more than the amount borrowed in a couple of years. Then they will add interest and penalties on that balance of loan, interest and penalties so it grows exponentially. A student loan does not clear on a bankruptcy.

 

You can stomp your feet and pitch a fit and refuse to play nicely with the thugs. But it won't change the fact that you walked into the prison by your own choices and they will make you pay. For the rest of your life if need be, they will make you pay. 

 

Not my experience but the experience of people I know. Just sayin .....

Ofcourse it is harder to be defiant.  Lets stand up for something.  I won't get on my knees for every time someone with force brings it to me.  I'll pay my taxes.  But conceding to the enemy on all grounds isn't a choice, it's not virtuous in my opinion, and it doesn't progress meaningful change for the future.  Yea it's hard, so what? It requires imagination to adapt to difficult circumstances.

[dsayers]

Has anyone said that to you about a moral stance that you have taken?

 

Are you saying that what you're doing is taking a moral stance? You're talking about theft, which is immoral. You're saying you won't fund criminals, but keeping the money makes you a criminal. And since you're keeping the money, you're funding that criminal. Stand up, conceding... Do you really think all these re-packagings will fly amid people with moral clarity?

[MrCapitalism]

Good for you sir!

I still pay mine, but that's a choice I make. I don't really feel bad when I'm late on a payment though.

People like you make it easier for the rest of us to make the obvious choice... you're also doing a big part towards popping the student loan bubble. Others have mentioned the personal consequences of you making this fine decision, but that's why your choice takes bravery.

 

Hopefully our generation will have more resolve than the previous one which was wiped away by the housing bubble, ( Walk Away: The Rise and Fall of the Home Ownership Myth - Mises.org ) tell those rotten banks backed by monopoly money to stick it where the sun don't shine... THEIR BALANCE SHEETS!!!!!

[Bipedal Primate]

Hi ellisante35,

 

I sympathize with your disdain and respect your choice not to bend over for the state, cheers to that! :-)

 

I also support your stance that abstaining from corrupt nonsensical abusive systems is better than maintaining that system with compliance. Although, being arrested, homeless, or jobless is not necessarily worth not complying to an unjust system; sometimes it is in our own best interested to comply, and IMO, that's ok.

 

My suggestion is to rethink the cost benefit of not paying the school back? I would also consider other 'legal' alternatives to keep that cash. For example, I have no problem with people getting "reimbursed" for all the taxes they have paid into this corrupt system. Are you eligible for any state benefits: free housing, food stamps, unemployment, or the option of getting paid in cash and not claiming it?  

 

The fact Churches/Synagogues don't pay property tax and I do, really fucking pisses me off. I have already been forced to hand over so much of my hard earned cash to the state tax system, therefore I would have no problem getting some of my money back via 'state benefits', if that were ever an option.

 

Have you considered paying the school back and 'getting your money back' from the Sate using other means? This way, you are essentially not giving them any more of your money in conjunction with not risking legal action against you. This is more of a win win for you, IMO.

 

I have been taking active steps, like you, to not comply, and I am slowly getting off the 'Psychopathic Control Grid.' I no longer vote, I work for cash only, I pay for most things with cash, and I have gotten rid of my car/car insurance. I was fed up with paying for mandatory car insurance(while I'm living in china and not driving the car) and I was being forced to pay a ridiculously high annual $600 tag fee/arbitrary auto tax so that I could have the privilege of keeping a car I own. WTF?

 

Please let me know what happens moving forward with your decision. I appreciate you sharing what's happening in your life, and I hope you are able to sort this out without penalty.

[tritonx]

Lucky you, they can't repo education and knowledge, at least that will always be yours.

 

If I stop paying the bank, I get no more home, job and future.

 

The quicker you go bankrupt the quicker you will recover from this juvenile idea and forget about it.

 

but apparently student loans aren't cleared when you go bankrupt... think about it.

 

Do you really want to live out of the system?

[villagewisdom]

Wow, a little condesending saying that I'm 'pitching a fit."  Has anyone said that to you about a moral stance that you have taken?

I'm an accountant persuing a CPA certification and I'm well aware of the consequences of a defaulted loan.  I'm not really stomping my feet, I'm living a life that I want others to be able to live and a life I'm comfortable living.  I will sleep like a baby at night knowing my resources don't fund criminals and I was never scared to face reprecusitons for my actions.  I pay my taxes as I don;t want to go to jail, but that is pretty much the extent to which I'm willing to concede.

Do you think courage is childish behavior?

 

Perhaps you are right about the condescension. I am aware that it is a failing of mine that surfaces from time to time. Though even in retrospect, it is still hard for me to understand why you would ask that question given your participation on this site and your obvious level of education. 

 

But I'm always up for learning and will change to asking a question. 

 

What moral stance are you referring to? According to UPB, stealing is immoral. It's universal and applies to all circumstances at all times. Refusing to pay a debt is stealing. Therefore, I can see no courage in your proposed action, and in fact I see cowardice. I see trying to get your way by bullying the bullies. I see an attempt to avoid personal responsibility. And again, I am at the point of only being able to see that as immature behavior. 

 

IMO a more productive course of action would be to use your time and money to educate others before they get into the same mess you did. That would indicate maturity to me. 

 

Damn. Did I just go down that condescension road again? It appears that I have a personal issue I need to contemplate at this point. It's an unending journey. 

[jpahmad]

I refuse to pay my student loan debts.

The banks are criminals

The governments are criminals.

The contracts are not valid.

As an act of civil disobediance I refuse to pay and I'm proud to defend that decision.

 

Please let me know what you think.

 

not a good idea.  don't do it.

[Befree]

I would say that taking out the loan, to begin with, was the initiation of force (government backed or not) and was immoral.  Not because you choose to not pay it back, but because that currency you agreed to pay back, never existed.  It was typed into existence on a keyboard and you probably initially accepted it not knowing that it was counterfeit.  Don’t trade your real labor to repay their money colored toiled paper.  Don’t spend your whole life working a job you hate chasing currency that doesn’t exist. 

 

Let me rephrase that.  Even if you chose to repay your loan there isn’t enough money in existence to pay it back.  So, don’t be a slave to their stupid game of musical chairs.  I agree, don’t pay it back.  Stick to your principles.  Ignore the naysayers; they are just too invested in the current theft system to accept what’s right in front of their face.  That either choice you choose to make is immoral.  So you might as well make the immoral choice that benefits you and not the “people” who own five houses and a small flotilla of yachts.  That being said, if you do choose to repay it, think about paying the minimum and/or waiting till high inflation and pay it back then. 

 

Good post topic.  I enjoyed it.

[powder]

I think you have a cute dog.  

[dsayers]

Don’t trade your real labor to repay their money colored toiled paper.

 

He traded "their money colored toilet paper" for other people's real labor. But that's not the point. If you and I agree to trade X for Y, X or Y is given, but the other is not, theft has occurred.

 

You're not going to combat the theft inherent in fiat currency by stealing it. You're also not going to arrive at the truth by using words like immoral and principles without anything to back those claims up.

[powder]

He traded "their money colored toilet paper" for other people's real labor. But that's not the point. If you and I agree to trade X for Y, X or Y is given, but the other is not, theft has occurred.

 

You're not going to combat the theft inherent in fiat currency by stealing it. You're also not going to arrive at the truth by using words like immoral and principles without anything to back those claims up.

what about things like getting paid in cash and not paying taxes that way.  Is that theft?  

[ellisante35]

Lucky you, they can't repo education and knowledge, at least that will always be yours.

 

If I stop paying the bank, I get no more home, job and future.

 

The quicker you go bankrupt the quicker you will recover from this juvenile idea and forget about it.

 

but apparently student loans aren't cleared when you go bankrupt... think about it.

 

Do you really want to live out of the system?

Juvenile idea?  What is juvenile is to think that you can contract with concepts.  The fraud occurred when a person or people presumed to be something they were not.  What is juvenile is to use meaningless adjectives that try to belittle another person or in hopes it will make them feel bad.  I take ethics seriously and I take truth and honestly seriously.  I'm living those principles that I obtain from reason and evidence. 

I would say that taking out the loan, to begin with, was the initiation of force (government backed or not) and was immoral.  Not because you choose to not pay it back, but because that currency you agreed to pay back, never existed.  It was typed into existence on a keyboard and you probably initially accepted it not knowing that it was counterfeit.  Don’t trade your real labor to repay their money colored toiled paper.  Don’t spend your whole life working a job you hate chasing currency that doesn’t exist. 

 

Let me rephrase that.  Even if you chose to repay your loan there isn’t enough money in existence to pay it back.  So, don’t be a slave to their stupid game of musical chairs.  I agree, don’t pay it back.  Stick to your principles.  Ignore the naysayers; they are just too invested in the current theft system to accept what’s right in front of their face.  That either choice you choose to make is immoral.  So you might as well make the immoral choice that benefits you and not the “people” who own five houses and a small flotilla of yachts.  That being said, if you do choose to repay it, think about paying the minimum and/or waiting till high inflation and pay it back then. 

 

Good post topic.  I enjoyed it.

Yes, I refuse to use the products of my labor to repay something that no one worked for and was provided by the monopoly on violence.  The 'money' is FIAT!!!! Stefan gives a huge speech on BitCOin referenceing how fiat curency FUNDS WARS....FIAT FUNDS DEBT SLAVERY!

[tritonx]

I dare you to call Stef, you will get destroyed.

 

Do it before doing anything stupid.

 

Even though many agrees that fiat is a fraud, responsible adults respect their obligations.

 

You can chose not to pay, but don't come crying when you reap the consequences.

[ellisante35]

 

Perhaps you are right about the condescension. I am aware that it is a failing of mine that surfaces from time to time. Though even in retrospect, it is still hard for me to understand why you would ask that question given your participation on this site and your obvious level of education. 

 

But I'm always up for learning and will change to asking a question. 

 

What moral stance are you referring to? According to UPB, stealing is immoral. It's universal and applies to all circumstances at all times. Refusing to pay a debt is stealing. Therefore, I can see no courage in your proposed action, and in fact I see cowardice. I see trying to get your way by bullying the bullies. I see an attempt to avoid personal responsibility. And again, I am at the point of only being able to see that as immature behavior. 

 

IMO a more productive course of action would be to use your time and money to educate others before they get into the same mess you did. That would indicate maturity to me. 

 

Damn. Did I just go down that condescension road again? It appears that I have a personal issue I need to contemplate at this point. It's an unending journey. 

 

Thanks for commenting back   I beleive refusing to pay the loan is UPB.  It is UPB to refuse to comply with agreements that are made in bad faith, with fraud, and under circumstances where full knowledge of the agreement was not made.  The money was 'created' using the monopoly of the state and by the use of fiat currency.  THere was nothing to be stolen.  The entire agreement and payments were completely arbitrary and fraudulent since a person cannot contract with concepts (govt and corp.) and there is no obligation to repay something that was never never given up (fiat currency, fractional reserve banking).  How can a concepts like governments and corporations have more power than a real person that exists.  I'm a king.  I exist.  They don't, and I will not live in servitude to exploitative language.  What I'm doing is showing that loans created via fiat currency and fairytale ideas are not real, are arbitrary, are subject only to moral agents.  It is on par with showing how taxes are immoral, they are illegitamate debts, are complusory, the intiations of force etc.

[ellisante35]

I didn't think philosophy gave orders but it seems a lot of people on this site are telling me what I should do.

[tritonx]

You do whatever you please, we are just trying to steer you away from a big mistake...,

 

tell us how it goes, I'm curious.

 

Start a blog ask people to pay for your stuff.

 

So how many months behind are you right now?

[J. D. Stembal]

It occurred to me the other day that the real reason the Feds take down dark net websites like the Silk Road is not because they peddle unregistered guns, drugs and other contraband. The real reason they have to take these websites down is because they have to squelch the business model of an underground marketplace that uses cryptocurrency before it spreads to more mainstream goods and services. The fact that Silk Road deals in illicit drugs is simple coincidence. If you could buy heroin at the local drug store, there wouldn't be as much profit in it in an open market. Imagine a world where you could buy or sell anything on the free market without being taxed at the federal, state or municipal level.

 

You could brew beer out of your garage, and distribute it without government oversight or taxation. This is just one of the many examples we could think up.

[tritonx]

 

You could brew beer out of your garage, and distribute it without government oversight or taxation. This is just one of the many examples we could think up.

 

Not sure it is the proper discussion, but wherever it leads to...

 

Crypto currency won't free us from taxation, legislation and such. If the government proves you make a profit, revenue, ie run a commercial enterprise, they will either arrest you or tax you and force you to get a proper license for your activities. Even if you deal only in bitcoin, fur or airmiles, the government will tax you accordingly to their fiat and value your operations using comparative.

 

It's easy to get away with a very small business, but if you want to buy a ferrari from your brewed beer, you might encounter some issues...

[Befree]

He traded "their money colored toilet paper" for other people's real labor. But that's not the point. If you and I agree to trade X for Y, X or Y is given, but the other is not, theft has occurred.

 

You're not going to combat the theft inherent in fiat currency by stealing it. You're also not going to arrive at the truth by using words like immoral and principles without anything to back those claims up.

Ok, I’ll use the word “truth”, so there’s no confusion here.  The “truth” is that even if he repays that stolen currency (via inflation tax that the bank initiated), that money will not make it back into your and my bank accounts.  The bank is just going to pad their own pocket books.   And that bank isn’t going to destroy the money that it created, and the odds are that the value that the loaned individual creates throughout his/her life’s labor will not come close to creating the value that was destroyed by the initial theft.  And the value that “is” created by that individual will have some kind of perverse incentive behind it.  (Like the creation of a bomb instead of a coat)

 

And to make it worse, the bank is going to take his repayment as 10% down on the next loan, which justifies the printing of another 90% of currency into existence for the next loan.  Believe it or not, they typically do require 10% of real currency down on a future loan.  And his choice to repay continues the pattern of abuse by incentivizing selling more snake oil to some uneducated 18 year old who doesn’t understand how the currency system works.  And don’t compare an 18 years olds moral capacity …Oops… sorry… “truth” capacity to say, for example, a CEO at a banks.   To make a comparison to murder, the banker would be committing 1st degree murder and the 18 year old 3rd degree, because the banker is more self aware of the act of theft.  Meaning the banker deserve a harsher punishment for selling stolen currency while the 18 year old probably didn’t understand he was accepting stolen goods.  

 

It’s a simple risk assessment, from the standpoint of truth.  If he repays the loan he hurts himself, and the next 18 year old who accepts the snake oil, by initiating future theft.  If he rejects repayment he hurts himself (ruined credit and so on) and the bank.  And that rejection of payment hurts the two guilty parties and doesn’t incentivize the creation of more inflation, theft, and enslavement.  And not to mention the perverse incentive, which created the bomb, instead of the coat. 

I’ll try to simplify this.   If repays: he hurts the future kid, himself and rewards the banker.  If me doesn’t repay: he hurts himself and the bank (guilty parties).   And don’t argue for you and me.  The money has already been stolen from our bank accounts.  The least we could do as moral agents (sorry, “truth agents”) is help the kid by trying to stop future inflation and enslavement.  Stop the pattern of abuse!

 

Don’t pay back the loan if you have the courage.

[dsayers]

I didn't think philosophy gave orders but it seems a lot of people on this site are telling me what I should do.

 

Saying that a behavior is theft is not telling you what you should do. Others have helped you to understand what would happen if you did that, which is also not telling you what to do. It's this lack of integrity that has led you down the path of justifying theft as if it's noble.

 

@Befree: That's a lot of effort being put into resisting the truth that not honoring your voluntarily chosen obligation is theft.

[Befree]

Saying that a behavior is theft is not telling you what you should do. Others have helped you to understand what would happen if you did that, which is also not telling you what to do. It's this lack of integrity that has led you down the path of justifying theft as if it's noble.

 

@Befree: That's a lot of effort being put into resisting the truth that not honoring your voluntarily chosen obligation is theft.

Chosen obligation to who? The bank?  He initiated theft by signing the loan to begin with.  Repaying it would just be doubling down.

[J. D. Stembal]

Not sure it is the proper discussion, but wherever it leads to...

 

Crypto currency won't free us from taxation, legislation and such. If the government proves you make a profit, revenue, ie run a commercial enterprise, they will either arrest you or tax you and force you to get a proper license for your activities. Even if you deal only in bitcoin, fur or airmiles, the government will tax you accordingly to their fiat and value your operations using comparative.

 

It's easy to get away with a very small business, but if you want to buy a ferrari from your brewed beer, you might encounter some issues...

 

If you buy everything you need in BTC and receive all your income in BTC, you do not have to report it. They are considered an asset, not a currency, so if you never turn them in for dollars, you pay no taxes. If fact, the government has no way of knowing how much in crypto assets you actually have. Why would you do something dumb like buy a Ferrari?

 

I know the thread started out with not paying back school debts, but along the way, taxes were mentioned (I think it was Powder) and it made me think of the Silk Road take downs and Bitcoins.

[ellisante35]

Stefan discussed in a call in show one time that it is not in immoral to not pay your debts. he used an analogy where in which a man borrows a chainsaw and refuses to give it backwhen it is disclosed by the owner he wished to use it for a crime. Does anyone have an argument using upb standards in relation to debts with governments, fiat currency, etc. Controlling the flow of our resources is something we can do today to effect change in the world.

[dsayers]

Chosen obligation to who? The bank?  He initiated theft by signing the loan to begin with.  Repaying it would just be doubling down.

 

To whomever he got the loan from. Signing a loan is not theft. Repaying a debt is not theft.

[Befree]

I refuse to pay my student loan debts.

The banks are criminals

The governments are criminals.

The contracts are not valid.

As an act of civil disobediance I refuse to pay and I'm proud to defend that decision.

 

Please let me know what you think.

 

 

To whomever he got the loan from. Signing a loan is not theft. Repaying a debt is not theft.

 

Accepting counterfeit US treasury notes, when its illegal to use anything but US treasury notes, is theft.  The same way accepting a stolen car is theft.  Because there’s no choice to use anything but the US treasury note.  And I’m assuming the bank that issued the loan didn’t use existing currency and loaned out printed currency (via fractional reserve, as most banks do). Ellisante35 committed theft by accepting stolen currency and should suffer the consequences of a reduced credit score, garnished wages, etc, bla bla. (which isn’t saying much, seeing how near every college student in this day in age is in a similar circumstance).  

And in a perfect system, where there where competing currencies, fractional reserve currency wouldn’t be a problem, because that market would put that particular bank out of business.  However, in a system where it’s illegal to use anything but US treasury notes as money (accept in Utah, to a certain extent) theft of currency is still theft.  Theft is theft no matter how you phrase it.  Even if it’s packaged in an idealized free-market word like “Loan”.  Because that loan is theft of other people’s goods/services through inflation.  And seeing how that loan can’t be repaid (as the current money, to do so, doesn’t exist), all the best intentions in the world won’t repay it.  

 

Repaying the loan isn’t a choice; it’s fear of slavery.  It’s an impulse.  Not choosing to pay the loan is a principle.   A principle is a choice.  So, the only real choice ellisante35 has “is” to not repay the loan.  He is choosing to be virtuous, as difficult and backward as that may sound to people who support the current banking system out of fear.   And that is a very brave thing to do, especially when the government has been known to break down doors with swat teams, for unpaid student loans.  (Ironically spending as much money in swat team salaries/expenses than they could collected).  Ellisante35 I commend you for you bravery.  Choosing not to pay back your loan “is” taking responsibility for your crime, assuming you understand the consequences of not repaying the loan. 

 

Yes, you should be proud of your decision.  I agree with you.

[ellisante35]

I hope some of the light shed on this subject can help people deal with the stress and social anxiety associatedwith indebtedness.

 

 

Accepting counterfeit US treasury notes, when its illegal to use anything but US treasury notes, is theft. The same way accepting a stolen car is theft. Because there’s no choice to use anything but the US treasury note. And I’m assuming the bank that issued the loan didn’t use existing currency and loaned out printed currency (via fractional reserve, as most banks do). Ellisante35 committed theft by accepting stolen currency and should suffer the consequences of a reduced credit score, garnished wages, etc, bla bla. (which isn’t saying much, seeing how near every college student in this day in age is in a similar circumstance).

And in a perfect system, where there where competing currencies, fractional reserve currency wouldn’t be a problem, because that market would put that particular bank out of business. However, in a system where it’s illegal to use anything but US treasury notes as money (accept in Utah, to a certain extent) theft of currency is still theft. Theft is theft no matter how you phrase it. Even if it’s packaged in an idealized free-market word like “Loan”. Because that loan is theft of other people’s goods/services through inflation. And seeing how that loan can’t be repaid (as the current money, to do so, doesn’t exist), all the best intentions in the world won’t repay it.

 

Repaying the loan isn’t a choice; it’s fear of slavery. It’s an impulse. Not choosing to pay the loan is a principle. A principle is a choice. So, the only real choice ellisante35 has “is” to not repay the loan. He is choosing to be virtuous, as difficult and backward as that may sound to people who support the current banking system out of fear. And that is a very brave thing to do, especially when the government has been known to break down doors with swat teams, for unpaid student loans. (Ironically spending as much money in swat team salaries/expenses than they could collected). Ellisante35 I commend you for you bravery. Choosing not to pay back your loan “is” taking responsibility for your crime, assuming you understand the consequences of not repaying the loan.

 

Yes, you should be proud of your decision. I agree with you.

Thank you for your thoughtful response! A lot worth considering!

[dsayers]

 

Accepting counterfeit US treasury notes, when its illegal to use anything but US treasury notes, is theft.

 

You're essentially saying that every transaction everybody engages in is theft. This is absurd.

 

Whomever he got the loan from had a legitimate claim to the currency they gave to him with the stipulation that he pay it back within X time frame at Y rate of interest, which he agreed to. The fact that the government controlling that fiat currency stole from everybody to make it and likely devalued it in the interim is irrelevant.

 

This is not a hypothetical. You transact with others using fiat currency. You do not take things that belong to other people pretending that you're liberating items they've stolen since they acquired it with fiat currency. You demonstrate in your daily life that you do not accept the very claims you continue to pour copious amounts of effort into asserting. What isn't clear to me is why? 

 

I hope some of the light shed on this subject can help people deal with the stress and social anxiety associatedwith indebtedness.

 

How did you come to find this community I wonder? I ask because you don't seem the least bit interested in pursuing self-knowledge. You started the thread claiming to be a victim of people expecting you to honor your commitment, which is a reasonable expectation. Then you shifted it to being a victim of people telling you what to do, even though this wasn't happening. Now you're claiming to be a victim of "indebtedness" as if that's some freak accident like a tornado hitting your house, even though that's a situation you voluntarily chose to be in.

 

Every step of the way, you've been certain that the problem is external. It seems to me that the anxiety you're describing is the result of the combination of 1) your expectations do not match the real world and 2) you do not understand that it is your expectations that must give way. As a result, your efforts at addressing the problem only serve to exacerbate it because you've skipped past the crucial first step of fixing ANY problem: Identifying the problem.

[Bipedal Primate]

Stefan discussed in a call in show one time that it is not in immoral to not pay your debts. he used an analogy where in which a man borrows a chainsaw and refuses to give it back when it is disclosed by the owner he wished to use it for a crime. Does anyone have an argument using upb standards in relation to debts with governments, fiat currency, etc. 

 

The problem with the example you give is that the person who borrowed the chainsaw did not know before asking to borrow it, it would be used for a crime, but you were fully informed, therefore, the chainsaw argument does not work to prove your point.  

 

Do you feel you were mentally unstable due to mind control/brainwashing at the time? Were you taking any mind altering medication when you agreed to the loans? Were you a legal adult when you agreed to do it, did your family coerce you? Unless, you can prove that you were not fully informed, tricked or coerced, then using the moral stance doesn't hold water. And if you can't, then you have to admit to yourself that you engaged in a voluntary contract with an agency who you knew was corrupt. 

 

If you voluntarily put yourself at risk, then you can't blame anyone else, you just have to own it.  for example:  a woman goes to a bar alone, gets drunk, blacks out, has sex with a stranger in the bathroom. She then blames 'rape culture' and refuses to pay her bar tab because 'the bar' didn't protect her. 

 

If I take out loans for a medical degree because I can not work as a doctor without a state approved license, but then after graduating, am unable to find a job, and unable to pay the loan back, and justify not paying it back because it is a corrupt system, this becomes more about passing the buck. Whose fault is it that I took out the loans? I was not coerced to take out the loan. I voluntarily put myself at risk, with the gamble I would one day have the funds to repay the loan. ( I am guessing this is what happened with you).

 

If I marry a man who beats me up, we buy a house together, and then after being married for a while decide I don't want to be beaten up anymore, and have an epiphany that it is universally wrong to beat people up, file for divorce, and then stop making my share of the house payment, then what I am really saying is: 

1. I made a mistake -- reasonable

2. I regret the mistake  --reasonable

3. I don't want others to make this same mistake  --reasonable and shows empathy for others

4. I don't want to take any financial responsibility for that mistake --unreasonable

5. I now self identify as a victim  --setting myself up for an unhealthy self-image, IMO.

 

I absolutely agree with your statement, "Controlling the flow of our resources is something we can do today to effect change in the world."

 

I think it's great you want to live your values. I personally, don't have a problem with you not paying your student loans back. Although, I think it's better to just admit it's a personal choice and not try to use an illogical justification. I feel it distracts from the positive message that you can role model to others, which is I fucked up, but now I know better, and I'm making changes. :-)

[yagami]

The way I see this problem is would you be morally obligated to pay back the mafia if you entered into a contract with them. This is also assuming that you didn't know they were the mafia before you entered into a contract with them. I would say yes you are still morally obligated to do so. The contract you entered into was voluntary.

 

I am sure at the time of you entering into the contract with them you knew that there were times when the government used your money to do things you did not agree with. Things like starting wars taxes ect. So you may not have known the extent of bad things that could happen when you payed the government but when dealing with philosophy there isn't much room for looking at things in terms of degrees. We dont say something is moral or immoral based off of a scale of negative consequences. Now that you know that everything the government does is evil that doesn't release you from your obligation.

 

Besides the contract does not state that when you pay back the money the money will be used for anything in particular. You made that assumption and now want to run away from those consequences. Even if those consequences are not only bared by you alone you are still morally bond to fulfill your obligation.

 

Non-principled people will look at this and say you are doing the right thing practically. You are bringing the evil of the government closer to its end. But those who believe in principles first will say you are acting immorally. (in my opinion)

[ellisante35]

The way I see this problem is would you be morally obligated to pay back the mafia if you entered into a contract with them. This is also assuming that you didn't know they were the mafia before you entered into a contract with them. I would say yes you are still morally obligated to do so. The contract you entered into was voluntary.

 

I am sure at the time of you entering into the contract with them you knew that there were times when the government used your money to do things you did not agree with. Things like starting wars taxes ect. So you may not have known the extent of bad things that could happen when you payed the government but when dealing with philosophy there isn't much room for looking at things in terms of degrees. We dont say something is moral or immoral based off of a scale of negative consequences. Know that you know that everything the government does is evil that doesn't release you from your obligation.

 

Besides the contract does not state that when you pay back the money the money will be used for anything in particular. You made that assumption and now want to run away from those consequences. Even if those consequences are not only bared by you alone you are still morally bond to fulfill your obligation.

 

None principled people will look at this and say you are doing the right thing practically. You are bringing the evil of the government closer to its end. But those who believe in principles first will say you are acting immorally. (in my opinion)

Thank you, yagami!