If the lazy are traumatized, Why does Stef scorn/mock them? :(

[William Wyatt]

I'm not making a full empirical argument here, I'm not well researched or focused enough on this issue to try. 
Stefan Molyneux has changed my life and I am not criticizing his work, just perhaps his lack of empathy is this instance... 

This is just an observation and emotional reaction to some of the emotions Stefan has expressed towards the lazy, the stoners, the weak and the dumb. He sometimes pokes fun at them without addressing the root causation of their issue. I feel as if he addressed them with more pathos, he wouldn't push away that audience as much, he would get more people to seek therapy and help.

The lazy were likely punished and put down for their behavior in the past, so it has become like a sweet to them. When all the bullying goes away, they turn to their numb stagnation. Stefan is almost doing what my parents did at times, albeit at a much more reasonable scale, but it's still put down... "DON'T BE A LAZY CUNT, STOP PLAYING THE FUCKING GAME BOX!!"

I'd go through all the videos to find a snippet of something. but honestly, right now I need to stay motivated in my practical life. I can't spend a few hours trying to be a critic.... 

 

[Ken Cotton]

He ( like most people ) recognizes that our time on earth is limited and that spending an inordinate amount of it on any individuals with which we're not deeply connected is a waste. Disdain and mockery are just the typical result of a successful person looking at or critiscizing an unsuccessful person. In this way I don't think his mockery is a lack of empathy, because he has explained many times he likes being lazy himself and gets it, but rather an overt rejection of the subliminal request of the lazy people. The lazy people require motivation or an investment of time and resources that the average person is unwilling to spend and their loafing around is sort of a subtle ask for that investment. It isn't as much that he doesn't understand the desire to be entertained as much as it is a response to their audacity.

 

I think that in order to be fair, you have to assume references to lazy people are references to people with the capacity to better themselves but who lack the desire or courage to do so. There is a fine line between sympathizing with people and becoming frustrated with them or giving up on them. I don't think it's meant to be a sort of bashing of people who are stuck in wheelchairs or something, telling them to stop whining and start climbing Everest. More of a "don't complain about not climbing Everest if you have working legs and decide to spend all your time sitting in a chair".

[Wuzzums]

People are ultimately responsible for their own actions as adults. Stefan gives empathy and sympathy, not excuses.

 

It's a person's choice to continue doing what they've been doing since they were a kid and complain that nothing is changing. Reminding them of that they're allowed to make different choices is giving them responsibility. We mock people that waive that responsibility away in the same fashion we put people in jail for murder. Unconditioned sympathy and love for the people that make mistakes is tantamount to hatred and a lack of empathy for the people that do make the right decisions.

[RealP]

Big kudos for your courage to ask challenging questions in such a respectful way. I'm looking forward to Stef's views on the matter.

[bootoo]

Holding someone responsible for believing apostates should be killed, when being stoned to death has been the only other option in their lives would be a bad move

 

Holding someone responsible for believing apostates should be killed when they are at no risk to believe otherwise and have all available resources regarding philosophy, science and reason at their fingertips seems reasonable

 

Are you free to do that which does not occur to you? Does it occur to everyone to stop being a loser? I have family and friends who it appears dont have that critic in their head holding them to any social or personal standards, and their lives were very different to mine. Could be a clue there...but i think thats off topic on this board

[William Wyatt]

Big kudos for your courage to ask challenging questions in such a respectful way. I'm looking forward to Stef's views on the matter.

Thanks for all your great responses So it seems to me that at a certain point people have to hold themselves accountable for their own actions and take control of their own life. Break out of a victim mentality and acknowledge that they can only help themselves.

 

So in what age period does the shift go from parental responsibility to personal responsibility? For example my mother birthed me at 15, my father was 17. They were still rather young. With my own therapeutic process should I place responsibility on my parents? or my grandparents who abused my own parents? 

 

I could go back even further, so if I draw it to the philosophical conclusion am I to express anger at patterns of abuse themselves? or is it more healthy to express at and autonomous human being who had the free will to act differently, but chose to be abuse? I'm just philosophically torn on choosing a valid school of psychology, and it all comes down the the impossible question of free will vs determinism....

[RealP]

Thanks for all your great responses So it seems to me that at a certain point people have to hold themselves accountable for their own actions and take control of their own life. Break out of a victim mentality and acknowledge that they can only help themselves.

 

So in what age period does the shift go from parental responsibility to personal responsibility? For example my mother birthed me at 15, my father was 17. They were still rather young. With my own therapeutic process should I place responsibility on my parents? or my grandparents who abused my own parents? 

 

I could go back even further, so if I draw it to the philosophical conclusion am I to express anger at patterns of abuse themselves? or is it more healthy to express at and autonomous human being who had the free will to act differently, but chose to be abuse? I'm just philosophically torn on choosing a valid school of psychology, and it all comes down the the impossible question of free will vs determinism....

I believe that holding one's parents responsible doesn't equate saying that everything they did was wrong, or that they didn't "do the best they could". Maybe they did, but that's not the point; the point is that they wounded you.

 

To me, the "victim mentality" is about holding on to the parental rescue fantasy, that they will love you for who you really are. It's probably the greatest challenge in the journey to enlightenment.

[William Wyatt]

I believe that holding one's parents responsible doesn't equate saying that everything they did was wrong, or that they didn't "do the best they could". Maybe they did, but that's not the point; the point is that they wounded you.

 

To me, the "victim mentality" is about holding on to the parental rescue fantasy, that they will love you for who you really are. It's probably the greatest challenge in the journey to enlightenment.

I'm not sure I've really had that recently, I did slightly when I was younger. I would try to gain their acceptance of my deep ideas etc. But I have an ACE score of 6-8 so my parents were pretty abusive, both emotionally and physically. I was lucky not to be hit or anything for my 3 years. I find the biggest abuses happened as a teenager, my mother screeched and pulled my hair, slapped me on numerous occasions. and When i moved in with my father he held me to the floor and punched me. I also had numerous experiences with psychedelic drugs at that time, so argueably my abuse mixed with drug use whilst my brain was still developing had quite an impact. 

 

They didn't do 'they best they could..... Fuck them, I'm still trying to dissociate... I have cut off from my father and I'm still trying to get away from my mother, but I don't want to sever contact with my little brothers... My absence at Christmas at such a young age could traumatize them...  She knows I cut of from my father and she is worried I'll do the same to her, so by the threat of dissociation, I'm making her change her ways of parenting, even though she has already scarred them, and she is still insane... 

[RealP]

I'm so sorry to hear that, and I apologize if I came across as taking the side of your parents.

[William Wyatt]

I'm so sorry to hear that, and I apologize if I came across as taking the side of your parents.

No, no not at all. It's just your perspective, you were making the case that even if we did live in a deterministic world, it's healthy for me to express anger against the immediate causes of my trauma. I hope my use of swearwords didn't give you the impression that I was ahving a negative response towards you  

 

I've been delving a lot into the work of Daniel Macker recently, which has been rather enlightening. I know I have a lot of grieving to go through... But I'm going to use my music as a vent for that process. turn my accumulated traumas into something deep, epic and beautiful.

Psychological Rock n' roll

 

[MMX2010]

So in what age period does the shift go from parental responsibility to personal responsibility? For example my mother birthed me at 15, my father was 17. They were still rather young. With my own therapeutic process should I place responsibility on my parents? or my grandparents who abused my own parents? 

 

I could go back even further, so if I draw it to the philosophical conclusion am I to express anger at patterns of abuse themselves? or is it more healthy to express at and autonomous human being who had the free will to act differently, but chose to be abuse? I'm just philosophically torn on choosing a valid school of psychology, and it all comes down the the impossible question of free will vs determinism....

 

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're confused because you're framing the issue incorrectly.

 

The word "fault" describes how your parents harmed you.  But the word "responsibility" implies that your parents owe you something because they harmed you. 

 

The absolute most painful conclusion in philosophy is, "Your parents are at fault, but you're responsible." 

 

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In my opinion, the "So in what age period does the shift go from parental responsibility to personal responsibility?" question is pointless, because it distracts from the Fault / Responsibility paradigm.

 

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I also think that Pablo's questions helped you reach a healing, helpful conclusion - and I don't want my post to undermine what you've learned.  Instead, I want you to keep the words Fault and Responsibility in your head, at all times, to prevent yourself from falling backwards into the conundrum you possessed at the beginning of this thread. 

 

Edited to add an example: 

 

I'm going to pretend that you wake up every day with an important To-Do List. 

 

So you're about to start Item #1 when you remember something horrible that your parents did.  This will make you angry, at which point you can tell yourself that you're angry because it's their Fault.  If you do this well, your anger will propel you into accomplishing your To-Do List.

 

However, if you get depressed, because you're feeling the Responsibility of re-building yourself, you'll NOT want to tackle your To-Do List.  At this point, you should gently remind yourself that it was wonderful to get angry at your parents - but it's debilitating to get depressed because of what they did.  Then, tackle your list (albeit with less energy than was possible when you were angry). 

 

No matter what, "Everything your parents did was their Fault, but nothing they did excuses you of your Responsibility."