Getting boyfriend on board with RTR

[Mothra]

I am new to the FDR message board. I've been watching Stef's libertarian videos on youtube for about a year and have recently been listening to more of the family and relationship podcasts. I've always been fairly introspective but these have me going at a much deeper level. I am currently in a relationship and we both have tough histories but in different ways. We have been together for a year and half, living together for almost a year. We have been having some issues lately. I'm starting to think a lot about my family and how I relate to people and trying to incorporate this into our discussions to improve our communication and connection. He seems to be very resistant to this. He watches a lot of Stef's videos as well, but mostly the ones about libertarian stuff.

 

The main issue I have is not feeling loved. He tells me he loves me all the time but I don't FEEL it. I feel most connected/loved when we are having direct interaction, whether it be talking, cuddling, or having sex. The talking doesn't necessarily have to be about the most profound things, although I enjoy those the most. He apparently gets most of the connection he needs from physical proximity - just being in the same room and doing different stuff, not even talking. He also has a very low libido which I find very hard not to take personally. He is definitely a cuddler, but I feel like we have become way to platonic for my tastes. And I feel like he is putting it all on me, like my needs are too unrealistic.

 

I have trouble bringing up these issues because it has historically created distance. Usually we don't have sex for at least a week or two after an emotional conversation. But the stuffing things down doesn't work either, because they inevitably bubble up to the surface, and I start crying. I fear the crying may be the thing that is turning him off from having these types of conversations.

 

Does anyone have any advice for getting your partner on board with self knowledge and doing it together? I listened to Stef's RTR and I love the analogy of painting in the same room with a fellow artist and improving each other's paintings. That is what I would like my relationship to be. I just don't know how to get there.

 

 

 

 

[dsayers]

Welcome to FDR. I've read your post and have some thoughts I'd like to share. Before I do, I wanted to share some of my own experiences. I've had live-in significant others in the past. I lacked self-knowledge at the time we had moved in together, which I think was a terrible decision. It led to problems that I was unable to identify and unable to escape. I too looked for ways of "making it work" instead of accepting that maybe that person wasn't the right choice for me or that maybe I was (part of) the problem. Have you given much thought as to the potential that you're trying to make something fit that doesn't?

 

The main issue I have is not feeling loved. He tells me he loves me all the time but I don't FEEL it.

 

What does love mean to you? What does love mean to him? (I'm not asking that 2nd question for the sake of completion; It's a question you should be able to answer.) Have you felt loved before? What did it look like?

 

I'm sorry if this isn't very helpful. I've read your post a 2nd time and can't help but see my own live-in relationships from the past. I keep wanting to type things that would be things I'd like to have been able to tell myself back then.

[Spenc]

Yeah I find it a little troubling that he's getting sufficient intimacy out of the relationship just by being at or near an arm's length of you.  What would differentiate you from any other woman to him if he doesn't seek to interact with you mentally, intellectually, emotionally? 

 

I know that I would probably have had similar desires in a woman in my past due to my loneliness and abandonment as a child.  I didn't have the self-esteem and social skills to necessarily feel confident to open up to a woman or carry a great conversation for long, but the physical proximity was rewarding.  I at least was self-aware of my shortcomings and sought to improve and be a more interactive partner with my girlfriends.  Does any of this seem to fit with your boyfriend?  Or if not, why do you think he might have the needs he does and the lack of intellectual and emotional intimacy?

[MMX2010]

Have you (or him) tested his testosterone levels, to determine whether his is low?

[J. D. Stembal]

On the surface, this is very similar to my last living together arrangement with a woman so I feel that this is right in my wheelhouse.

 

I wanted sex once or maybe twice a week, and she wanted it every day. Usually, I was the one to compromise. When I started to assert boundaries and refuse sex, she turned it on me saying that I made her feel unloved. Apparently, her ex-husband would have sex with her once a month if he was feeling generous, so this clearly wasn't a problem with my libido, but her strategy to motivate men to have sex with her.

 

Let me tell you something straight (You may or may not be doing this.) Being on the receiving end of a sex guilt trip does not motivate the man to give you more physical intimacy in the long run. It kills the intimacy for him. It didn't help my situation that on two different occasions I was raped ("seduced" in her words) after I clearly told her that I didn't want sex.

 

The takeaway is that pressuring a guy for sex is a major mood killer. I doubt it has anything to do with his testosterone levels, assuming he isn't past 35 or 40. You are also framing sex and intimacy as a need that you have alone. There is a whole other person in this equation. What are his needs?

 

The main issue I have is not feeling loved. He tells me he loves me all the time but I don't FEEL it. I feel most connected/loved when we are having direct interaction, whether it be talking, cuddling, or having sex. The talking doesn't necessarily have to be about the most profound things, although I enjoy those the most. He apparently gets most of the connection he needs from physical proximity - just being in the same room and doing different stuff, not even talking. He also has a very low libido which I find very hard not to take personally. He is definitely a cuddler, but I feel like we have become way to platonic for my tastes. And I feel like he is putting it all on me, like my needs are too unrealistic.

 

It's not that selfishness is necessarily a bad quality to have, but the best way to get your man to open up is to start asking him about his needs. Be curious, open and inviting. Don't demand sex, but be honest that you enjoy sex with him very much. Make sure he understands that you don't expect him to be a dutiful sex machine - unless that is what you want, which would be unfortunate.

 

I have a suspicion that he is sexually closed off from you because he is feeling dominated, suffocated or ignored. Don't automatically feel that this is your fault. You are only one actor in the drama. His distance probably has a lot to do with how he was raised as a child. Be prepared for parental issues to pop up in your discussions. Is he open to talking about his family and his feelings? Do you listen to him and allow him to feel safe with his emotions?

 

There is also an outside chance that he is being intimate with another. It happens, and maybe his guilt of being unfaithful is manifesting in distancing himself from you. I'm not saying that you should go through his email or Facebook, but keep an open mind and heart to his words and actions. Are they truthful?

 

Most importantly, why is he resistant to self-knowledge? How does this manifest in your talks? What are his blocks and blind spots?

 

If these honest interactions start to develop between you and him, you will have a much greater chance of making this relationship work. Your honest assessment doesn't sound very reassuring. You should confront the possibility now that it might have to end.

[Mothra]

Thanks for the input, guys.  I don’t really have any friends I can talk about this stuff to and its been eating me up inside. It means a lot.

 

What does love mean to you? What does love mean to him? (I'm not asking that 2nd question for the sake of completion; It's a question you should be able to answer.) Have you felt loved before? What did it look like?

 

I’ve only had one other long term relationship in the past. It was undoubtedly not the healthiest relationship, but I felt loved in it during the good parts. We worked together and lived together so I think there was a degree of codependency.  In that relationship the sex was every day if not more. We also spent a great deal of time just talking and hanging out. Me and my current boyfriend have had discussions of why I need the sexual component to feel loved but have not come to any answers.  I agree with you that I should be able to answer the second question. I think to him it means being accepted for who he is and going through life together.  I’ll have to think more on that though.

 

 

Yeah I find it a little troubling that he's getting sufficient intimacy out of the relationship just by being at or near an arm's length of you.  What would differentiate you from any other woman to him if he doesn't seek to interact with you mentally, intellectually, emotionally? 

 

That’s the question I have as well. He’s talking about wanting to get married and gets carried off with the idea, which in a weird way hurts me. I don’t really understand what he’s getting out of this and it makes me think it’s not ME but the idea of being married to me if that makes any sense.  We do have talks and moments of intimacy, and we get into conversations about the world – history, anarchy, society, etc. But these don’t often turn inward at ourselves. That’s the attempt I’m trying to make lately and it has proven difficult.  And these types of conversations are limited to maybe an hour a day before bedtime when he is here.  The rest of the day is usually work, housework, and that kind of thing. He works out of town for up to a week at a time and then comes home for a week or two.

 

I’ve tried to think of why he might be this way. He wasn’t abandoned as a child, but was definitely abused. He’s told me on at least 2 occasions that his father kicked him in the stomach. And I know he was spanked as well. His father continuously cheated on his mom during the marriage  (and is now married to  one of the affairs). He was in jail for a period when he was 23 and after getting out, found out his parents had gotten divorced. I don’t know what you’d call it… if it would be considered sexual abuse or not, but his first sexual experience was at the age of 5 by a peer. He’s told me that he used to have a much higher sex drive in the past. He is 35 now and overweight so it’s possible that might have something to do with it. I do my absolute best not to push that subject because I know it’s touchy.  We talked about testing his testosterone, but it never happened. He has expressed that his low libido concerns him as well but he hasn't really taken any steps to address it. I am his longest relationship. He has had several others but none lasted more than a few months. He has told me that none of those people seemed to be genuinely into him and I’m the first where it’s felt like that.  So it might be he’s just not experienced with emotional intimacy and doesn’t know how to go about it, or that he’s scared of being vulnerable with a romantic partner.

 

Let me tell you something straight (You may or may not be doing this.) Being on the receiving end of a sex guilt trip does not motivate the man to give you more physical intimacy in the long run. It kills the intimacy for him. It didn't help my situation that on two different occasions I was raped ("seduced" in her words) after I clearly told her that I didn't want sex.

 

I did this when this problem first started to happen and yes, it had exactly the same consequences you mention. I just couldn’t fathom the idea that a man wouldn’t want to have sex. We get the idea drilled into us that men are sex maniacs. The past 6 months or so I have really aimed to not do that, though it feels like torture to not bring up my thoughts or feelings about it. I think maybe the damage has already been done. I almost positive he isn’t cheating. He doesn’t have the time even when he is away.

 

I have really tried to ask him about his needs and feelings, but he doesn’t really open up. When I try to have conversations about the relationship, he usually goes quiet. Eventually he’ll say “you’ll have to let me think about that” and come back a day or two later with his response.  It seems like he doesn’t trust his gut response or thinks that he’s going to hurt my feelings with his gut response.  Maybe he is taking my inquisitiveness as dominating, I’m not sure.  

 

I  really want the relationship to work. I have entertained the idea that it may not and it is heartbreaking.  I really feel like getting to a level where we can talk honestly with each other is the only thing that will allow it to work. I will definitely try harder to make this kind of inquiry a safer, more inviting prospect to him.

[Zerubbabel]

Zosha,

 

Here is a very simplistic suggestion: Very often when a dialog falls apart it is because of failure in definition of terms. This isn't to say that a dialog is the same as a relationship, but as you have said repeatedly the communication of ideas and emotions is difficult. 

 

You and your significant other should, as ingenuously as possible, answer Dsayers' question: "Have you felt loved before? What did it look like?"

 

There is a well known book/theory going around that offers five different ways of answering the question. 1) physical touch, 2) words of affirmation, 3) time together, 4) service and 5) gifting.  It is a "small truth" that everybody has a preference among these five "love languages."

 

Mine is authentic words of affirmation with a minor in physical touch. I actually dislike 3 and 4, and wonder at the character of someone who picks 5. 

[J. D. Stembal]

I’ve tried to think of why he might be this way. He wasn’t abandoned as a child, but was definitely abused. He’s told me on at least 2 occasions that his father kicked him in the stomach. And I know he was spanked as well. His father continuously cheated on his mom during the marriage  (and is now married to  one of the affairs). He was in jail for a period when he was 23 and after getting out, found out his parents had gotten divorced. I don’t know what you’d call it… if it would be considered sexual abuse or not, but his first sexual experience was at the age of 5 by a peer. He’s told me that he used to have a much higher sex drive in the past. He is 35 now and overweight so it’s possible that might have something to do with it. I do my absolute best not to push that subject because I know it’s touchy.  We talked about testing his testosterone, but it never happened. He has expressed that his low libido concerns him as well but he hasn't really taken any steps to address it. I am his longest relationship. He has had several others but none lasted more than a few months. He has told me that none of those people seemed to be genuinely into him and I’m the first where it’s felt like that.  So it might be he’s just not experienced with emotional intimacy and doesn’t know how to go about it, or that he’s scared of being vulnerable with a romantic partner.

 

This kind of childhood and past makes me mad. Although this is just a small snapshot, the level of extreme abuse is tangible. Please know that you and your boyfriend have my deepest sympathies.

 

This is why he has trouble opening up to you, and shuts down Real Time Relationship by saying "Let me get back to you on that." Emotions happen in the moment, and he is turning them off. The goal is finding the real cause. I believe it is buried in his past, and your past as well.

 

When I started making it a point to have these deeply person conversations, my relationship started to unravel. I went from passionate and curious to obsessed and crazy. I know now that it was a sham. It wasn't a relationship at all. It is possible that one or both of you are too frightened to find out what you already know.

[Spenc]

That’s the question I have as well. He’s talking about wanting to get married and gets carried off with the idea, which in a weird way hurts me. I don’t really understand what he’s getting out of this and it makes me think it’s not ME but the idea of being married to me if that makes any sense.  We do have talks and moments of intimacy, and we get into conversations about the world – history, anarchy, society, etc. But these don’t often turn inward at ourselves. That’s the attempt I’m trying to make lately and it has proven difficult.  And these types of conversations are limited to maybe an hour a day before bedtime when he is here.  The rest of the day is usually work, housework, and that kind of thing. He works out of town for up to a week at a time and then comes home for a week or two.

 

I’ve tried to think of why he might be this way. He wasn’t abandoned as a child, but was definitely abused. He’s told me on at least 2 occasions that his father kicked him in the stomach. And I know he was spanked as well. His father continuously cheated on his mom during the marriage  (and is now married to  one of the affairs). He was in jail for a period when he was 23 and after getting out, found out his parents had gotten divorced. I don’t know what you’d call it… if it would be considered sexual abuse or not, but his first sexual experience was at the age of 5 by a peer. He’s told me that he used to have a much higher sex drive in the past. He is 35 now and overweight so it’s possible that might have something to do with it. I do my absolute best not to push that subject because I know it’s touchy.  We talked about testing his testosterone, but it never happened. He has expressed that his low libido concerns him as well but he hasn't really taken any steps to address it. I am his longest relationship. He has had several others but none lasted more than a few months. He has told me that none of those people seemed to be genuinely into him and I’m the first where it’s felt like that.  So it might be he’s just not experienced with emotional intimacy and doesn’t know how to go about it, or that he’s scared of being vulnerable with a romantic partner.

 

 

do you mind me asking how old you are?

 

have you asked what he envisions the marriage to be like?  Like, if i was imagining being married, i would be able to paint a picture of a regular day in the life of future me and explain what we would be doing, how we would be engaging one another, etc.  how do you envision a day in the life of future you if you get married to him, let's say a few years in the future?

 

you also mentioned not feeling loved, in spite of him telling you he loves you.  you also spoke about how or when he feels loved.  but you never said if you do love him or express it to him.  what is the situation with that?  how long have you been feeling love for him (if that is the case) and what specifically evokes these feelings toward him?

[IndianaLee]

Zosha, 

 

I can tell you as  a man that is 53 and thru hard experience that a man (or woman I'd guess) will have a harder time with demands or feeling like he's being demanded (even if not the case) for sex or anything else. I would for sure suggest you look into why you love each other and if you really do and what love means to you and if it's true love. I'm doing the same, and I wish you and your partner luck. 

Regards

Tim