Dealing With A Narcissist - Sweating Out The War Gunk

[Blackfish64]

Finally over it... the last few days of war with myself and my little narcissist.  She's a real doozie.  Creepy little brat.  Spoiled rotten little shithead.  I have to admit, getting along with the wife is much, much easier than it was in the years before, as I have learned that she is a full-blown narcissist.  I have learned so much about the subject as of late that I am finding myself kind-of embarrassed that I missed it all these years.  I thought she was just moody, or something, but, no, she's a narcissist.  She's the real thing.  

 

Anyway, knowing is a good part of the battle, but now the question arises, what to do about it?  Do I just up and leave, abandon, and move on, like all the experts say, or do I try to work it out? 

 

I am trying to work it out.  I try to be on guard for when the cunning little cobra sneaks up from behind to bite me with one of her smirks, comments, and her snarkiness, but every now and again she catches me off guard and sends me back into a tail-spin, and I come out raging.  The raging, of course, fills my body with all kinds of chemicals, like I am going to war or something, and when the rage subsides, I am left dealing with the residue, the gunk, the goop, the coming down.  Narcissists are great at messin' with people.   

 

I find that a good workout, a good long stick walk and/or some body dynamics helps to get rid of the goop inside the body, to sweat it out, and feel good and clear again. 

 

 

[dsayers]

What does working it out look like? I mean, is she seeking help? Does she think there's a problem? Does she accept her own capacity for error? If no to any of these, then "working it out" could only involve erasing yourself for the comfort of others. Which would be feeding it. Or in other words, working it IN.

 

Does your 15 year old daughter live with you? I'd get out just for her sake. True she's already done developing personality-wise, but I still think it would be good for her to see dad admit he made a mistake, treat it as dangerous as it is, and take action to avoid that danger. I would even recommending apologizing to your daughter for exposing her to that woman. Would make for a great dialog where you could see what her thoughts are as well as share with her your own mistakes that allowed for such a bad decision.

[DaVinci]

What would be the point of staying in such a toxic environment? What do you get out of staying other than rage and pain?

[J. D. Stembal]

It might be more instructive to relate specific interactions a day or two after they occur, if you feel comfortable. In this way, you'll have had some time to think it over. I would like to point out that you left the identity of the person you are describing vague. Based on the description, you could be describing your mother. Was this intentional or subconscious?

 

While the identity of the person doesn't matter much, the context of the emotional manipulation does. What happens when you don't take the rage bait? Can you resist? Does she escalate or does she apologize?

 

DaVinci also has got a point. Why is there a narcissist in your life? You could attempt RTR with her when she begins ribbing you, but she might become really confused if your don't explain to her what you are doing first.

[RyanT]

I'll be honest mate, I'm finding your post overwhelming and a little confusing,

 

I have 'been there myself' so I feel I can empathize a lot with with what you're going through at the minute,

but as a total outsider looking in, I think I probably would just write you off as being a bit crazy yourself.    

 

Which is of course par for the cause, as you said 'narcissists are great at messin' with people'

and a big part of why they do that is to isolate them.

 

Certainly find it hard to connect when you start off ranting and 'calling her names', then say you're getting along.

Seem to be asking for advice, when you've already made up your mind, then you seem to be offering

advice how to 'deal with this rage'...pretty bewildering?

[J. D. Stembal]

I'll be honest mate, I'm finding your post overwhelming and a little confusing,

 

I have 'been there myself' so I feel I can empathize a lot with with what you're going through at the minute,

but as a total outsider looking in, I think I probably would just write you off as being a bit crazy yourself.    

 

Which is of course par for the cause, as you said 'narcissists are great at messin' with people'

and a big part of why they do that is to isolate them.

 

Certainly find it hard to connect when you start off ranting and 'calling her names', then say you're getting along.

Seem to be asking for advice, when you've already made up your mind, then you seem to be offering

advice how to 'deal with this rage'...pretty bewildering?

 

I also felt confused. Thank you for wording it so well.

 

I must have missed the wife in the first line, or the post was edited. I knew who was being described at any rate. This is not the first post that I've read from Blackfish which has left me with a bittersweet feeling. He strikes me as very passionate man, and reminds me of my father who also married a woman from another culture later in life. He's resigned to sticking it out with her, even though she is abusive, manipulative and toxic, because they had two children together. I recently cut off contact with my family because there is a deep sickness lingering there of which I have only just scratched the surface. It's a trial separation for now, but I can't fix problems that I didn't cause so there is no reason for me to get involved. I feel really bad for him. He must be in a living hell. I can't be there with him.

[Blackfish64]

It is true, some of the stuff I have related is vague. I was writing off the cuff and didn't have all the time I wanted to put all my thoughts into words.

 

As for my "fifteen year old daughter", she is now twenty seven and off on her own a long, long time ago. Collateral took that piece of information about her from another post and his capacity for error has cause him to put the facts out of time and place. My present wife came into the picture when my daughter was a teen. My wife wanted to rush right in and put the hammer down on the child, and I told her it wasn't allowed and that it would not be tolerated. Wife simply did not know all the facts, and changing the course of daughter's life at her discretion, all of a sudden, wasn't a good idea. The cultures were different, the personalities were different. It was starting to look like disaster. I told wife to back off. Which she did. That was many years ago however.

 

As for myself and the wife, I have only recently learned that she is a narcissist. I have known for years now that something was terribly wrong with her and our relationship, but I could never quite put my finger on it. I simply wrote it all off as husband and wife stuff.

 

When she and I first got together, she was with me 100%. I mean, she was really wonderful for the first three and a half years or so. We made big plans together and we began to see them through. We began to carry them out. I could not have been happier. You see, this is what narcissists do... they do everything and anything they can to gain your confidence and your trust, and when they've got you-they've got you. That's what she did to me.

 

That's what they've all done to me.

 

Dad, mom, first wife and her crazy family, then I went off alone for well over a decade, staying out of serious relationships, and I was happy. It all ended with current wife. I thought she was going to be different. She was different. Like I said, for years she had my back and I had hers. We were quite a duo. Then things gradually began to change. It got so crazy at times that I had to stop and ask her, "Wow! Whoa! What the fuck do you think you're doing?" Especially with the money. It was insane. I had to stop her and take control of all the money or she was going to ruin us. It got to where she simply did not care what she did to me.

 

This is where a lot of the rage comes from. It is healthy and right to rage against those who have done you harm. UIt is not however healthy to be fixated on the rage and make it a way of life. But, no matter what shenanigan she pulled, she always found a way to make up for it and keep me going along with her.

 

My parents were like this, too. My first wife and her family. Then, like I said, I found happiness in my solitude and adventures, in doing things I had dreamed of doing since I was a boy. I made all my dreams come true. And I thought that current wife was only another part of the dream I had made real. And she was, for a long while. I can't deny that.

 

You see, I didn't know much about all this narcissist stuff until about a year or so ago. And when I first learned about it, of course, I did not want to believe it. I did not want to believe that all my life, all my childhood, I had been conditioned to support these assholes. Over the years, as I grew, I simply ditched them when they showed up. I ditched Mom and Dad when I came of legal age. I ditched my first wife and her family when I realized they were even crazier than my family. And living alone for many years, no one and nothing bothered me. I did as I pleased, as I had always dreamed.

 

But now I am smacked in the face with this new information. I am slowly detaching from the wife. I am learning to observe and be detached. For the most part, I am successful. But there are times when she is just too fucking much. I blow. Like I did the other day. Thus, this thread, and talking about how I deal with the aftermath of my rage.

 

There are two things I need do now. 1. Abandon the narcissist. There is no hope of fixing this situation. 2. Move on.

 

Today, after days of dealing with her moodiness, moroseness, anger, stupidity, and other endless nonsensical nonsense, and after hearing me out (she wasn't even listening), and after no apology for her behavior, and after a half-assed hug and kiss (there hasn't been one of those in a year or more), and after pretending that she is going to do something, finally!, about her behavior toward me... today she slips back into her most morose state I have ever witnessed, her lies, her manipulations, her deceit, and her unkindness and cruelty.

 

After all this (actually, long before all off this, but this only further solidifies my convictions), I come to the realization: she doesn't give a flying fuck about me at all.

 

Which leads me back to rule #1. Abandon the narcissist. #2. Move on.

 

But this is a process. It isn't going to happen immediately, and even if it did, there are still things that need doing. So, I am taking care of those things while I am still here. 'Nuff said about that.

 

Meantime, on top of all her garbage, I am getting messages from America that Mom is sick and probably going to die soon. She has clogged arteries, and there isn't enough oxygen going to her brain.

 

Nope, not a word of sympathy from wife. I always thought this was strange about her... this lack of sympathy. I had never seen such cruelty, such lack of empathy before. Never. I have been sick only twice since I have known her. But once, back in the US, I had some kind of flu bug that really tore me up. I had it coming out of both ends and it was horrific. She ignored me the whole time this was going on. I thought it unusual, but said nothing. Then I got up and ran to the bathroom and was vomiting into the bowl violently. It was so violent it put me on my knees and I thought my guts were going to come with the vomit and that was going to be the end of me. What does she do? She follows me into the bathroom, bitches at me to be careful not to get any of it outside of the toilet bowl, to be sure to flush, then she starts rubbing my head and preaching sarcastically, "Oh, my god! You're making such a big fuckign deal out of this! What\s your problem? You will be going to work tonight, won't you? You're not going to call off sick are you?" At that, I caught a break between purges, stood up, grabbed that bitch by the back of her shirt, shoved her out the door of the bathroom, then the master bedroom, then slammed the door and locked it, leaving her out in the hallway. Then I returned to the bathroom to vomit in peace.

 

Pray you never get sick with a narcissist around. The second time I got sick, a few months ago, same thing as the first time with the vomiting and all the rest of it, she reacted no different. She came in the room acting all high and mighty and started a fight with me when I asked for some hot tea. I got up out of bed and got in her face and backed her all the way out the door, backwards. I kept that wretch out of my room and out of my life for days until I became well.

 

Yes, I am a little bit "crazy". I've attracted one too many narcissists in the past. It was part of my conditioning as a child. I was that kind of child. I've been that kind of adult for a long time with this pathetic excuse for a human being. I shall not be making these kinds of choices and actions ever again. I have learned the full scope (well, full enough anyway) of what all this means and who I am dealing with. The names I have called her are actually toned down for the message board. If I said what I am really thinking about this person they would likely not allow it to be posted here.

 

Meantime I am getting all my ducks in a row and getting ready to bail. Another narcissist to dump in the ditch and leave them right where I found them. Only this time I really know what I am doing. I am quite happy about it, matter of fact. Quite happy to have finally discovered the truth. And quite happy to be moving on.

 

Sam Vaknin, if you are reading this, I thank you.

 

Not much more to say, really. It's just a matter of time until I get it all wrapped up and head back stateside.

[andkon]

do I try to work it out?

It's a relationship, so it's not a matter of I, but are both of you working it out? If you're the only one paddling...

 

I am trying to work it out.  I try to be on guard for when the cunning little cobra sneaks up from behind to bite me with one of her smirks, comments, and her snarkiness, but every now and again she catches me off guard and sends me back into a tail-spin,

That doesn't sound like working it out, that's just walking on eggshells to minimize the damage. She's still in control when you're not raging by you managing the situation.

 

Is she willing to go to couples' therapy and to listen to your concerns?

[dsayers]

As for my "fifteen year old daughter", she is now twenty seven and off on her own a long, long time ago. Collateral took that piece of information about her from another post and his capacity for error has cause him to put the facts out of time and place.

 

Do you experience any cognitive dissonance accepting the capacity for error of another person while rejecting your own capacity for error? Nothing about

 

My wife is Thai. I don't tolerate anything from her.  She tried some emotional tuff stuff with my fifteen year old daughter, but my daughter rejected all of it.  I did, too.  I simply told her that's not how things are done around here, get used to it.

 

(source) indicates that you are referring to 12 years ago. I point this out since instead of just saying no, she doesn't live with you, you've indicated that the chain of causality was important to outline.

[Blackfish64]

 

 

Abandon the narcissist. Move on.

[Blackfish64]

It's a relationship, so it's not a matter of I, but are both of you working it out? If you're the only one paddling... That doesn't sound like working it out, that's just walking on eggshells to minimize the damage. She's still in control when you're not raging by you managing the situation.Is she willing to go to couples' therapy and to listen to your concerns?

I can't argue any of your points. Good material, thank you. Going to therapy is out of the question. Abandon the narcissist. Move on.

[J. D. Stembal]

I'm sorry that you continue to be manipulated by narcissists, but you also have to take ownership over the fact that you chose to associate with them after leaving your FOO. Abandoning the narcissists, and moving on, as you say, may simply lead you to another one. You, on some level, are encouraging this behavior.

 

As sick as your mother is, it may be beneficial for both of you to confront her about her mothering before you no longer have the chance to do so. I have great sympathy for you and your family, including your daughter. It must have been difficult on you and her to be separated for so long. I'm a little confused about the time of solitude and adventures. Were you driven away from your family through threats, intimidation, or divorce, or did you voluntarily leave? You seem to be painting it as the stereotypical male midlife crisis, but we all know it's a little more complicated than that. Fathers don't just ditch their families because they want to go have adventures, or free themselves from the family tax farm. They leave if it is too painful to stay or they are not given the choice. Do you have a close relationship with your daughter as an adult?

 

Don't engage with your wife. Don't bother calling her names. She's not worth the effort. She wants you to belittle her, and to get angry, and play the role for which you she selected you. The few times you showed vulnerability while ill, she antagonized you.

[Blackfish64]

Now, a very interesting twist in my story has come about... while visiting this weekend, our young nephew, Beamer, celebrated his 12th birthday. The amazingly perceptive and intelligent lad said over dinner that he knew something was wrong between his auntie and I. He said, "Auntie, why you always try to fight and pick on Uncle? Youjust like my dad with my mom. He always try to pick on and fight with her. You and my dad same. You know, if you don't stop, Uncle will get tired of you and leave you all alone. Is that what you want? Is that what you are trying to do? Are you trying to make Uncle go away? Why you do him like this? He is a good person and always try to help you, but you never appreciate. Why not? Don't you like him?"

 

At that, wife got up and left the table to hide her face and cry.

 

Now, what's interesting is that none of this conversation was provoked. Young Beamer just came out with it of his own accord and perception. He hit the nail right on the head. I had to ask him, "What is your best subject in school?"

 

"Mathematics."

 

"Wow! That's excellent. You may want to consider having a look at psychology. You are a most excellent psychologist! Thank you, for your observations."

 

"Yes, Uncle, I am good psychologist!"

[Blackfish64]

I'm sorry that you continue to be manipulated by narcissists, but you also have to take ownership over the fact that you chose to associate with them after leaving your FOO. Abandoning the narcissists, and moving on, as you say, may simply lead you to another one. You, on some level, are encouraging this behavior.

 

As sick as your mother is, it may be beneficial for both of you to confront her about her mothering before you no longer have the chance to do so. I have great sympathy for you and your family, including your daughter. It must have been difficult on you and her to be separated for so long. I'm a little confused about the time of solitude and adventures. Were you driven away from your family through threats, intimidation, or divorce, or did you voluntarily leave? You seem to be painting it as the stereotypical male midlife crisis, but we all know it's a little more complicated than that. Fathers don't just ditch their families because they want to go have adventures, or free themselves from the family tax farm. They leave if it is too painful to stay or they are not given the choice. Do you have a close relationship with your daughter as an adult?

 

Don't engage with your wife. Don't bother calling her names. She's not worth the effort. She wants you to belittle her, and to get angry, and play the role for which you she selected you. The few times you showed vulnerability while ill, she antagonized you.

Please, don't tell me you're sorry. I do not want or need your sympathy. I am not looking for sympathy, but better ways to understand narcissism, and I am using my own life experiences to demonstrate my knowledge of the subject, which grows by the day.

 

And please stop with the no contact nonsense. We are surrounded by narcissists. They are everywhere. Obama is one of the most malignant narcissists now living, and he runs the US. Your boss or manager is probably a narcissist. They're all over the place. The man I learned the most about narcissism from is, yep, you guessed it, a full-blown, raving narcissist. The difference between he and other narcissists however is that he realizes he is a narcissist and does something about it.

 

We are all narcissists to some extent. And there is a healthy narcissism and a not-so-healthy narcissism. Which one are you?

 

I have no wish to confront my mother about her mothering. The poor thing has been through quite enough already. I'm amazed she's still alive. I'm amazed she didn't die long ago.

 

I'm a big, fifty year old man. I'm not scared of narcissists. I'm not scared of mommy dearest or daddy dumbass. I don't need to run off and cut every one out of my life every time they have a problem. I'm not about to run and hide from narcissists. I am not a victim. I am educating myself. I am getting all my ducks in a row and learning to understand this problem and how to conquer it. That's how I do things. Everyone else can run and hide and cower every time mommy dearest and/or daddy dumbass and/or whenever the neighborhood narcissist and bully happens by. As for me, I will take care of business the way I see fit.

 

Dad is a lunatic. I have always known this. I knew that one day I would grow up and kick his ass. I grew up all right, but that day never came. They're not worth confronting. They're not worth talking to. There is nothing to be gained from it. It's not worth kicking their ass. When you slap shit, it splatters.

 

No, I will not run and cower from the narcissists in my life. I will find them wherever they might be and I will call them out loud and fucking clear, if necessary.

 

Victims can be just as much bullies as any narcissist. I don't put much stock in the victim nonsense. We're all going to get manipulated by someone in life, sooner or later. Welcome to the really real world. Learn how to deal with it.

[RyanT]

I'm sorry that you continue to be manipulated by narcissists, but you also have to take ownership over the fact that you chose to associate with them after leaving your FOO. Abandoning the narcissists, and moving on, as you say, may simply lead you to another one. You, on some level, are encouraging this behavior.

 

Spot on mate,

 

got to watch out for the tremendous self-attack that comes out of that realization, know Blackfish mentioned Sam Vaknin's work on the topic and he does put out some decent material although is worth noting he is himself a narcissist and therefore somewhat suspect...

 

Certainly for me this guy has been of tremendous help.

 

 

[Blackfish64]

Narcissism Survivor has got some good items, but he's a bit of a whiner and a narcissist and gets a lot of mileage out of claiming victimhood. He's at the botton of my list.

 

I like Ollie Mathews, too.

 

Sam Vaknin is not suspect. He is very educated and is a full blown narcissist. He's even done time. His book: "Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited" is absolutely fascinating. I highly recommend it. He knows he's a narcissist and a narcissist survivor and often talks about it.

[RyanT]

Narcissism Survivor has got some good items, but he's a bit of a whiner and a narcissist and gets a lot of mileage out of claiming victimhood. He's at the botton of my list.

 

I like Ollie Mathews, too.

 

Sam Vaknin is not suspect. He is very educated and is a full blown narcissist. He's even done time. His book: "Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited" is absolutely fascinating. I highly recommend it. He knows he's a narcissist and a narcissist survivor and often talks about it.

 

I've always find him to be a very sincere man who has a lot of care for other victims of narcissists, which comes from good self-knowledge and empathy with his younger self.

 

'Whiner' what does that even mean? I've certainly used it myself in the past to describe people and often found it coming from a deep resentment of their ability (thus highlighting my own inability) to express vulnerability without a paralyzing fear of attack and ridicule... 

[dsayers]

Narcissism Survivor has got some good items, but he's a bit of a whiner and a narcissist and gets a lot of mileage out of claiming victimhood.

 

I don't know that man's work specifically, but I wanted to point out that this is a common pitfall. A lot of people avoid self-knowledge because they view people who can identify their own victim status as "wallowing." I understand that I was victimized. I only ever reference it when explaining WHY I do/experience certain things. I've had people react to me as if I was throwing a pity party (which is pretty horrible when you think about it).

 

Are you sure that what you're seeing isn't just the wisdom of calling things by their proper names? I ask because your post history in general comes across as macho and averse to emotions. That is my bias, so I read a quote like this and associate it with the experiences I've just shared.

[Blackfish64]

Agreed. The pity party is a sham and is bullying and attention seeking.

 

I can be every bit as "vulnerable" as anyone, even more so, but there's a time and a place for it.

 

Narcissism Survivor once did a presentation on an experience with a family gathering. He talked the whole time describing the narcissist's ruling of the gathering and getting supply from it. He did nothing to change the situation, up and leave it, for one example, and then comes on YouTube, behind everyone's back, and whines about it. Furthermore, why did he bother going in the first place? He knew only too well that would be the case. He knew his narcissist was a snake and stuck his hand out to get bit again. What for? To get his own narcissistic supply and YouTube presentation?

 

As for me, sometimes I am a little bit macho. I mean, I do understand and respect feelings, mine and others, but sometimes the feelings are held in too high regard. Feelings aren't everything. Again, time and a place for it. Sometimes it's time to put aside the feelings, take the proverbial bull by the horns and get going.

[RyanT]

Narcissism Survivor once did a presentation on an experience with a family gathering. He talked the whole time describing the narcissist's ruling of the gathering and getting supply from it. He did nothing to change the situation, up and leave it, for one example, and then comes on YouTube, behind everyone's back, and whines about it. Furthermore, why did he bother going in the first place? He knew only too well that would be the case. He knew his narcissist was a snake and stuck his hand out to get bit again. What for? To get his own narcissistic supply and YouTube presentation?

 

Eh? He clearly states that it was the last family gathering he ever attended ...a few years ago...before making the decision to go no contact. 

 

The videos there for anyone who wants to check it out themselves

 

[Blackfish64]

Whiner.

 

I still don't get why he even went in the first place and why he sat there and took it. I mean, it's like the old native American story where the old woman takes an injured rattlesnake home and nurses him back to health. Then he bites her. Afterward, she asks why, after all she's done for him, he treats her this way. The snake says, "Dumb old bitch, you knew I was a snake."

 

Sam Vaknin is highly intelligent. The real thing. This guy's an amateur. From him I get a real sense of revenge and attention seeking, like he's secretly hoping his mommy dearest is watching the videos. Creepy. I see the hurt little boy in his eyes, speech, and actions, like he's not quite over it yet. I prefer a more factual, scientific, and problem-solving approach and method.

[dsayers]

sometimes the feelings are held in too high regard. Feelings aren't everything. Again, time and a place for it.

 

How do you know? Also, how are you able to determine when and where somebody else is allowed to feel something?

 

This guy's an amateur. From him I get a real sense of revenge and attention seeking, like he's secretly hoping his mommy dearest is watching the videos. Creepy. I see the hurt little boy in his eyes, speech, and actions, like he's not quite over it yet. I prefer a more factual, scientific, and problem-solving approach and method.

 

What part of "This guy's an amateur. From him I get a real sense of revenge and attention seeking, like he's secretly hoping his mommy dearest is watching the videos. Creepy. I see the hurt little boy in his eyes, speech, and actions, like he's not quite over it yet" is factual or scientific? How is your approach here solving any problem?

 

You're essentially describing one's vulnerability as an invitation for your scorn. If I had such a sharp, emotional reaction to something, I'd want to look at that and figure out why. By becoming hostile towards something that could illicit such a response in you, you're not identifying any problem, and will be powerless to solve it. Or is it that the hostility did not arrive at the proper time and place to be considered valid by you?

[Mark Serene]

I am wondering if somebody would be kind enough to offer a definition of narcissism. I understand the grandiosity and self-obsession aspects, sort of, but I am having trouble defining it in a way that relates more to virtue, if that makes any sense. Thank you.

[Blackfish64]

Wikipedia, Mayo Clinic, and the good old Greek mythology all have excellent discussions on what is narcissism. These are all good places to start. And again, I have to hand it to Sam Vaknin and his book, "Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited" for explanation.

 

Now, one thing that is often missed and misunderstood about the narcissist that he most definitely has a personality disorder. That is to say, there is something wrong with them. Don't forget the narcissist is a victim, too. That's how he got where he is in the first place. All too often the information you read about narcissism comes from those who have been victimized by narcissists and you hear only one side of the story: their victimization. There's a great deal more to it than that. I'm not trying to excuse the narcissist and his or her behavior, but often they don't really understand themselves what they are doing. It's up to healthy people, people who may care about him or her, to make them see it.

 

Sticking with one particular definition might not be as good an idea as studying the problem a bit.

 

The narcissist comes from abuse. And so, like the good empaths and scientists we all strive to be, I would highly recommend taking the Hippocratic oath and applying it generously here first before drawing any conclusions. And of course if you are with a narcissist yourself, protect yourself first. There isn't always something that can be done to help the narcissist, but we must first help ourselves to understanding the problem.

[Blackfish64]

Listen to the words Vaknin reads from a cerebral narcissist on his non-attraction to women.  I can't imagine life being like this.  This has got to be the most miserable, empty, cold existence one can have.  I would have to end it.  I don't think I could take it.  I could not imagine life without the society of women.  Hot, hard bodies to squeeze, a beautiful face to laugh and cry with, the ultimate companions.       

 

But, then again, as the narcissist says, he could care less.  He is simply not interested.  Bizarre.  100% alien.    

 

 

I think this talk on arrested empathy is crucial to understanding narcissists and their behavior as well.

 

This is part of what I was talking about when I talked about my wife torturing me when I was sick and I could not understand her lack of empathy, lack of sympathy.  The narcissist simply does not have these abilities. 

 

 

 

[Blackfish64]

Now, this lecture verifies what I have thought for a long time about psychology.  It's not an exact science.  When people consider what is good and bad psychology, we have to consider where the person(s) in question have come from.  North, South, East, West, all have quite different manners of behavior and what is and is not acceptable.

 

While it may be favorable to adopt an "objective" manner of psychology and philosophy, and in theory it could appear to have been done, we must remember that we are dealing with the human psyche and the human framework in general, which is far from being perfect, far from being even reasonably workable in most cases.  In other words, most people are stupid and don't know what psychology and/or philosophy is in the first place, let alone what good psychology and philosophy might be.  Makes me want to run off and try to find, "Galt's Gulch."  Who knows?  It might actually exist!      

 

Basically, for one example, what we might call "narcissistic" in one part of the world, might well be considered a perfectly normal and acceptable social norm in another part of the world.  Where in the western parts of the world, the narcissist is seen as and empty-headed, unempathic, unsympathetic, destructive ghost walking the landscape; in another part of the world however the entire landscape might be filled with the same type of person, all walking among each other, all practicing the same norms and customs, which, to a western observation, is narcissistic, but to them is quite normal, quite expected in fact.  To them, behaving in any other way would be unacceptable.    

 

[Blackfish64]

How do you know? Also, how are you able to determine when and where somebody else is allowed to feel something?

 

 

What part of "This guy's an amateur. From him I get a real sense of revenge and attention seeking, like he's secretly hoping his mommy dearest is watching the videos. Creepy. I see the hurt little boy in his eyes, speech, and actions, like he's not quite over it yet" is factual or scientific? How is your approach here solving any problem?

 

You're essentially describing one's vulnerability as an invitation for your scorn. If I had such a sharp, emotional reaction to something, I'd want to look at that and figure out why. By becoming hostile towards something that could illicit such a response in you, you're not identifying any problem, and will be powerless to solve it. Or is it that the hostility did not arrive at the proper time and place to be considered valid by you?

 

 

I make no determination on whether or not someone is allowed to feel something or not.  That is absurd.  What I mean to say is that there is a time and a place for talking about it, bringing it up, etc. 

 

I am describing no such thing, however I would scorn someone who brings up his precious feelings out of time and place.  For example, if we are at work, that is not the time or the place to talk about your feelings and/or your therapy.  And, yes, I do have a sharp aversion to that kind of behavior.  On the other hand, if we are in therapy, I don't want to talk about work, unless of course it has something to do with the therapy. 

 

Most people don't really want to get better.  Most people only want to have someone to whine to.  I put those kinds of people aside and stick with those who want to try and get better.   

[dsayers]

Most people don't really want to get better.  Most people only want to have someone to whine to.

 

I would ask how you know, but you didn't answer that the first time. I think you are projecting. If somebody talks about something you are not comfortable with, you can distance yourself from that person. You don't get to tell them what they can and cannot talk about. That's simultaneously asserting your needs while erasing their needs. Also, I think your contempt and prejudice are disproportionate to what you ascribe them to.

[Blackfish64]

I would ask how you know, but you didn't answer that the first time. I think you are projecting. If somebody talks about something you are not comfortable with, you can distance yourself from that person. You don't get to tell them what they can and cannot talk about. That's simultaneously asserting your needs while erasing their needs. Also, I think your contempt and prejudice are disproportionate to what you ascribe them to.

 

 

I know from talking to people and from watching how they behave.  Now, I don't claim to be any kind of behavioral expert, but some things aren't too hard to spot and explain.  It is my understanding you do some kind of security work.  Do you or do you not draw conclusions about people based on their behavior?  Of course you do.  If you did not, you would not know when to "draw down", as you say, on a suspect, would you?  You would be at a loss on what to do if you did not observe and draw judgement and conclusion on them.  In fact, you would not be very good at your job at all.  Perhaps you would only be "projecting".  Perhaps that is why "law enforcement" is such a brutal ordeal in America these days.  What with all the officers only "projecting" and drawing conclusions from... what?  Hard to say.   

 

All that being said, it has been my experience, judging from talking and observing the behavior of others, that most people are stupid and don't want to help themselves at all.  They want to whine and get freebies and sob all over others.  The "feelings" game is not always genuine.  For some people, for many people I have met, it is nothing more than their attempt to draw a blank check on my time, my patience, and my resources.  And to such people, I say, well, they can go to hell.   

 

Again, it's all about context.  If I am the boss, and we are at work, for example, you bet I get to tell you what what we do and what we don't talk about.  If your talking is disrupting the schedule and the workplace, if you're upsetting people with your chatter about your feelings, we're going to have a talk, not about your feelings, but about how you now need to stop talking about your feelings and get back to work.  And if there is anything you need, I will surely point out to you whatever benefits you might be entitled to as an employee that can help you get the help you need and be a better, happier, healthier individual, who does not disrupt the work, but enhances it, and makes it a better place to work. 

 

As for what you do on your own time, well, that is none of my concern, unless and until, once again, context, you are in my house at a party, you are drunk, and start talking about some feelings or event nobody much approves of, then, again, you will be asked to control yourself or you will be asked to leave. 

 

And once more, if you want to talk about some feelings or event I do not want to talk about, I will ask you to change the subject, and if you don't, I might get up and leave you sitting there all by yourself, talking to yourself about your feelings and events.

 

And if it is a family member, a loved one, a good friend, or even a stranger, who has a legitimate conflict and needs my help, or just needs an ear to listen, I'm all in.  And if it's nothing but bawling about this and that and how there's nothing they can do, I will make suggestions as to what they can do.  If they don't like my suggestions, they can take some other suggestions.  Whatever it takes.  But the goal is always to solve the problem, whatever it might be, and get well, get better, and move on. 

 

I am interested in the problems and understanding them, yes, but after that it's time to get well.  After that, I am interested in solutions. 

 

Context.  That time and place for everything under the sun. 

[J. D. Stembal]

Please, don't tell me you're sorry. I do not want or need your sympathy. I am not looking for sympathy, but better ways to understand narcissism, and I am using my own life experiences to demonstrate my knowledge of the subject, which grows by the day.

 

And please stop with the no contact nonsense. We are surrounded by narcissists. They are everywhere. Obama is one of the most malignant narcissists now living, and he runs the US. Your boss or manager is probably a narcissist. They're all over the place. The man I learned the most about narcissism from is, yep, you guessed it, a full-blown, raving narcissist. The difference between he and other narcissists however is that he realizes he is a narcissist and does something about it.

 

We are all narcissists to some extent. And there is a healthy narcissism and a not-so-healthy narcissism. Which one are you?

 

I have no wish to confront my mother about her mothering. The poor thing has been through quite enough already. I'm amazed she's still alive. I'm amazed she didn't die long ago.

 

I'm a big, fifty year old man. I'm not scared of narcissists. I'm not scared of mommy dearest or daddy dumbass. I don't need to run off and cut every one out of my life every time they have a problem. I'm not about to run and hide from narcissists. I am not a victim. I am educating myself. I am getting all my ducks in a row and learning to understand this problem and how to conquer it. That's how I do things. Everyone else can run and hide and cower every time mommy dearest and/or daddy dumbass and/or whenever the neighborhood narcissist and bully happens by. As for me, I will take care of business the way I see fit.

 

Dad is a lunatic. I have always known this. I knew that one day I would grow up and kick his ass. I grew up all right, but that day never came. They're not worth confronting. They're not worth talking to. There is nothing to be gained from it. It's not worth kicking their ass. When you slap shit, it splatters.

 

No, I will not run and cower from the narcissists in my life. I will find them wherever they might be and I will call them out loud and fucking clear, if necessary.

 

Victims can be just as much bullies as any narcissist. I don't put much stock in the victim nonsense. We're all going to get manipulated by someone in life, sooner or later. Welcome to the really real world. Learn how to deal with it.

 

Where did I suggest that you run from all the narcissists in your life? You are the one that said dump the narcissists and move on, not me. You can probably extricate yourself from your wife the first chance you get because you have no children together, and she sounds like a perpetual antagonist and lost cause after years of suffering with her.

 

You should confront your mother, ex-wife, and daughter with your concerns about narcissism, and ask yourself and your family whether you exhibit the qualities of a narcissist as well. An environment of narcissists will tend to breed more. The macho attitude you convey in response to delicate and emotional subjects comes out of living in an environment where all parties are attacking each other and throwing insults. There is no place to be vulnerable and genuine. I could be wrong, but my ears are very sensitive for the smallest of verbal jabs. Everyone who uses them starts out small just to see what they can get away using, and then works up from there.

 

I've been called crazy to my face at least a half a dozen times this year, and who knows how many times behind my back. My father told me to my face that he failed in raising me after I told him that I am an anarchist. That's a backhanded insult on me but a glaring judgement on him, especially considering he was never around when I was really young. I would have to stay up really late as child just to see him before I went to sleep. Shouldn't he be one of the two people most responsible for how I developed?

 

You may not wish to have my sympathies, but I'm only a stranger on the internet, so what possible threat do I pose? We can be open and honest here, can't we?

[Blackfish64]

I do in fact exhibit the qualities of a narcissist.  We all do, some more than others.  That is not even arguable.  The question is, are you a narcissist?  In other words, do you seek to invade the boundaries of others, take whatever they have for your narcissistic supply, and treat others like disposable trash?  That is the question.  We're all narcissists.  But there is a healthy narcissism and a not-so-healthy narcissism.  

 

I wouldn't venture to guess whether or not you can be open and honest, genuine and vulnerable.  I know I can however.  

 

It's not that I don't want your sympathies, it's that I have to wonder what people hope to accomplish by spreading them around.  I prefer to do the emotional work and get on with it.  I fail to see what good sympathy does, for the most part.  There are times when it is appropriate and helpful.  There are times when it is a waste of time and is superfluous. 

 

I appreciate what you said about confronting the narcissists in my life.  What you need to understand is that I am fifty years old.  This stuff is either been done already and/or I just don't care anymore.  I simply fail to see what is the objective you have in mind in doing a thing like that.  What will it accomplish?  All too often, "confronting" people like these looks like trying to get revenge, or putting someone in their place, or something like that.  I have no wish to hurt anyone.  No, not even those who have hurt me.  Those who hurt me did so because they were hurt themselves to begin with.  Doing more of what doesn't work still doesn't work.  I think that if revenge and putting someone in their place is what one has in mind, then I would say the best way to accomplish that is to live one's life and be happy in spite of them.  The narcissist can't stand to see us happy and having a good life and a good time.  The narcissist wants us to be low, miserable, and in their service, feeding their narcissistic supply.  Take that away from him and you've got something there.  You want to make a narcissist miserable?  Live your life and let him see that he means nothing to you, has no advantage whatsoever over you, and you are happy, healthy, and whole.  Your past may well be broken and fucked up and you may have failures he may try to use and to hold over your head and bring you down to his level.  Keeping fit and healthy in a world full of narcissists and just plain assholes is the challenge.  That never ends.  We don't get a day off from that.  Having been abused as children does not grant us the privilege of never having to feel pain again.  No.  Rather we get to carry that pain along with us and add it to our list of burdens as we travel through life.      

 

When someone calls me crazy, I consider the source and take it as a compliment.   

 

Our backgrounds are very different.  I didn't stay awake nights waiting for dad to come home so I could talk to him.  I could not stand the sight of my father and ran and hid when he came home.  I hated his guts from the day I was born and wished only that he was dead or gone away and not in my way any longer.  When I became a teen and could leave the home, I did so at my earliest convenience.  I never wanted anything to do with him.  To this very day, he is someone I do not know and do not care to know.  

 

Your father said he failed in raising you.  There, you see?  The words came out of his own mouth.  It was the same with my father.  Fail.  Failure.  They are failures.  The End 

 

But now we are big boys and girls and we are free to make up our lives any way we wish.  Free to choose the intellectual and emotional worlds we wish to live in and be a part of. 

 

Yes, I'm a pretty tough guy.  And it shows.  I come from a tough place, we did tough things, we were rough and tough kids who played noisily, rode horses and bulls, rode motorcycles, fought, adventured, swore like truck drivers at age two, and did a lot of other tough things.  I am still a big kid and do many of those things to this day.  I'm rugged and I like it that way.  Always looking for new ways to make me even more rugged.  

[J. D. Stembal]

Yes, I am a narcissist. I like to be aware of it when I am because other people are going to experience it coming from me. I am not always aware of it. I have treated people, women especially, as disposable people. When I became aware of my destructive and self-centered behavior, I was able to see that other people have often treated me in the same manner. You were absolutely correct in noticing that the narcissists are everywhere. Most people do it to a small degree. It's a great skill to be able to see it when it occurs within and without and have the courage to point it out.

 

If you feel as though it will achieve nothing in talking with the narcissists in your life, then that gut instinct is probably the correct one. At this point, maybe it will cause more agony and pain than peace and harmony to discuss it. I still fear talking to my parents about my issues with narcissism because they manipulate me and they don't even know that they are doing it. I have a lot feelings I want to express to them and when I dare to discuss them, they recoil, deny or dismiss. I projected my own feelings all over your thread despite not wanting to do so. I apologize.

 

I am having a negative reaction to you saying that you hated your father from the day of your birth. Is this possible? Or is this an exaggeration? Or was it that your father hated you from birth?

 

When my father said that he failed in raising me, he meant it as an accusation of my flaws (paraphrasing: "only naive people believe that anarchy is desirable"), while deliberately not acknowledging his role in my childhood. He has often claimed that he was too busy to have a close hand in raising me. When he had more time later on, he wondered why I didn't want to talk or spend time with him. It was too little for me coming way too late.

 

I still don't think he gets it. Since he is of ill health in his retirement years, he's all about discussing what the government owes him: tax breaks, single payer health care, and maximum social security benefits. I'm suspicious that he impregnated his mistress just so he could claim dependents in his retirement years. Apparently, having dependents increases your social security checks substantially. Offload them into public school when he has ample opportunity to home school them, and you have more free money flowing from the government. It makes me ill when I think about it.

 

I respect that you can show toughness but also display personal courage and vulnerability. How do you draw on that energy? Is it anger at your father and mother? Stefan often talks about how anger is a healthy emotional reaction. I have trouble feeling anger for people, especially my parents, without bubbling over into an incoherent rage. I fear the rage, and subconsciously squelch any anger when it is appropriate and needed. When I allow myself to react angrily at a person or situation, it feels extremely awkward and forced. Do you experience the squelching and discomfort at your own anger? Or does it flow smoothly?

[dsayers]

But now we are big boys and girls and we are free to make up our lives any way we wish.  Free to choose the intellectual and emotional worlds we wish to live in and be a part of. 

 

A blind man cannot wish to see. Somebody without self-knowledge cannot wish to be happy. Unprocessed trauma is a container that binds and limits. What you're talking about is repression. And oppression given your willingness to inflict it upon others.

[Blackfish64]

Yes, I am a narcissist. I like to be aware of it when I am because other people are going to experience it coming from me. I am not always aware of it. I have treated people, women especially, as disposable people. When I became aware of my destructive and self-centered behavior, I was able to see that other people have often treated me in the same manner. You were absolutely correct in noticing that the narcissists are everywhere. Most people do it to a small degree. It's a great skill to be able to see it when it occurs within and without and have the courage to point it out.

 

If you feel as though it will achieve nothing in talking with the narcissists in your life, then that gut instinct is probably the correct one. At this point, maybe it will cause more agony and pain than peace and harmony to discuss it. I still fear talking to my parents about my issues with narcissism because they manipulate me and they don't even know that they are doing it. I have a lot feelings I want to express to them and when I dare to discuss them, they recoil, deny or dismiss. I projected my own feelings all over your thread despite not wanting to do so. I apologize.

 

I am having a negative reaction to you saying that you hated your father from the day of your birth. Is this possible? Or is this an exaggeration? Or was it that your father hated you from birth?

 

When my father said that he failed in raising me, he meant it as an accusation of my flaws (paraphrasing: "only naive people believe that anarchy is desirable"), while deliberately not acknowledging his role in my childhood. He has often claimed that he was too busy to have a close hand in raising me. When he had more time later on, he wondered why I didn't want to talk or spend time with him. It was too little for me coming way too late.

 

I still don't think he gets it. Since he is of ill health in his retirement years, he's all about discussing what the government owes him: tax breaks, single payer health care, and maximum social security benefits. I'm suspicious that he impregnated his mistress just so he could claim dependents in his retirement years. Apparently, having dependents increases your social security checks substantially. Offload them into public school when he has ample opportunity to home school them, and you have more free money flowing from the government. It makes me ill when I think about it.

 

I respect that you can show toughness but also display personal courage and vulnerability. How do you draw on that energy? Is it anger at your father and mother? Stefan often talks about how anger is a healthy emotional reaction. I have trouble feeling anger for people, especially my parents, without bubbling over into an incoherent rage. I fear the rage, and subconsciously squelch any anger when it is appropriate and needed. When I allow myself to react angrily at a person or situation, it feels extremely awkward and forced. Do you experience the squelching and discomfort at your own anger? Or does it flow smoothly?

 

 

I think it's both.  Dad hated me when he realized I was nothing like him and didn't want to be.  I can't remember ever once liking him even for a minute.  I have always despised him and never wanted anything to do with him.  We are as opposite as night and day. 

 

There is no need to apologize for anything.

 

My dad is the same way.  He is a collectivist through and through.  He ran away from home when he was fourteen to live with rich people who spoiled him, then ran away from them at age sixteen, lied about his age and joined the Marine Corps.  He's been in unions all his life.  Drunk as a skunk, woman-beating maniac for the first forty five years of his life.  It's all about the collective, socialism, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme.  Typical of Baby Boomers.  It's all for them and it's all about them.  The most narcissistic generation of people ever born. 

 

It's easy for me to draw on the energy because I like it.  I cheat.  When you like doing something, it's not really work.  I'm just built that way.  It comes naturally.  Courage has to be worked at.  Displaying vulnerability comes from just being honest with myself.  I mean, we're just human beings.  We're here for only a very short time.  We're made of soft mushy stuff stuck to a brittle frame.  We're not much of anything at all.  And it's just plain luck of the draw for the most part that we are even here.  Looking for God, the meaning of life, the Fountain of Youth and other nonsense like that is useless because none of it exists in the first place.  No one ever finds it because it isn't there, there is nothing to find.  It's a trick and a trick question.  Life has no meaning save the meaning we put to it.  Outside of ourselves, there is no meaning. 

 

Dad, the narcissist, is an empty vessel, a fake tough guy.  Covered with fake-tough-guy Marine tattoos, drunk, sloppy, lazy and stupid, he would often pick fights with much better men than he and always got his ass handed to him.  I never understood until later on in life that he was just a coward in tough guy clothing.   I never understood why, if he wanted to fight so much, he never took the time to learn how, never worked at it, never worked out, was lazy and sat on his ass all the time.  If you want to go out and go around and get into some adventures, like I do, you gotta have your wits about you.  It's just common sense.  But I realized very early on in life that Dad had no common sense.  He is a fucking idiot of the first order.    

 

Most of my narcissism is centered around women, too.  I love them, squeeze them, hug them, laugh a lot with them.  I don't make anyone do anything they don't want to do, and I always make sure they know exactly what is going on.  This is why I love whores, professionals.  I can always get what I want.  And when I'm done I can just leave them where I found them.  I love these kinds of relationships.  I love all kinds of girls.  But with a normal woman in a normal relationship, it's all about how the world will see them and what the world is saying about them.  They want stability and a warm house to crawl into at the end of a boring work day.  They want the world to see them a certain way.  They need to be surrounded, safe, secure, with family and friends and the like.  It's all about the face and how the world looks at them.  I simply do not care in the least about anything like that.  The world can take what it thinks about me and shove it.  I'm too busy getting on with another adventure, learning, growing, being.  The many women in my life enhance all of this and make it more joyful, more playful. That's all I want to do with them, just play with them for a while, and move on. 

[Blackfish64]

A blind man cannot wish to see. Somebody without self-knowledge cannot wish to be happy. Unprocessed trauma is a container that binds and limits. What you're talking about is repression. And oppression given your willingness to inflict it upon others.

 

 

I was quite pleased to discover that happiness is not a pursuit, but that happiness ensues. 

 

Willing, yes, quite willing, but only when it becomes absolutely necessary. 

 

Force is sometimes a necessary evil, as the saying goes.  Not always.  But sometimes it just is.  Sometimes what's got to be done has got to be done.