Philosophers: Please don't ever say this to beginners ...

[shirgall]

http://pgbovine.net/programmers-talking-to-beginners.htm

 

 

Here's a sample interaction between an experienced programmer and a beginner who is just learning programming:

Programmer: Hey, I hear you're learning programming. Cool, what're you learning?

Beginner: I'm starting with some basic PHP and HTML using TextMate on my Mac.

Programmer: Haha, psssh, PHP is so dumb. You should learn Ruby on Rails, deploy on Heroku, and code in Vim. TextMate is for n00bs. Oh, then move onto some Node.js, that's sweeeeet. non-blocking I/O w000000t.

Beginner: uhhhhh, ok

 

We should crowdsource equivalent conversations for budding philosophers.

 

Philosopher: Hey, I hear you're learning philosophy. Cool, what're you learning?

 

Beginner: I've heard about the "mind/body problem" and I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

 

Philosopher: Haha, psssh, "begging the question," no less. It's merely a problem with definitions. They're only separate in your mind because you've been conditioned by language and culture to believe they are different. You should get into something meaty like epistemological solipsism. Show the idealism that only new eyes can bring!

 

Beginner: uhhhh, ok.

 

[Zelenn]

I second this. I must humbly admit that I am quite a "lightweight" in the realm of "rational" philosophy. I will admit that MUCH of the content on this site and Stef's work turns my brain into shit sometimes. Lol.

 

I still keep pushing for new and better knowledge, but admittedly, some topics appear to be way too advances for me as of yet.

 

I am working through Objectivist Epistemology and an expansion of what Logic I can claim to know. Although I am ever the eager learner, I will appreciate the forum's NOT nuking my brain with knowledge beyond my station.

 

Thanks. :-)

[jpahmad]

Has this happened to you?

[shirgall]

Has this happened to you?

 

No, but I've seen it happen to others. I took "PHIL 101" back in the 80s and I really enjoyed it. The "mind/body" problem was the first thing we talked about.

 

What I did go through is that when I grabbed a book about Philosophy in the bookstore they were completely unreadable. This was a random walk down a shelf, not a curated experience.

 

When I saw the posting I linked it struck a chord with me because I worked at a University and had an opportunity to teach some sections of what was called "Computer Science 101." What I taught was for people that did not want to go into Computer Science, so I needed to get some information across to make them successful as nursing students or engineering students that would have to use computers. I kinda felt like I was lighting a fire and needed to be careful not to blow out the spark.

This whole thing is reminding me of John Allen Paulos's book, Innumeracy and also A Mathematician Reads The Newspaper.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Innumeracy-Mathematical-Illiteracy-Its-Consequences-ebook/dp/B0058U7HTO

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mathematician-Reads-Newspaper-Allen-Paulos-ebook/dp/B00BAH8HWU/

 

I bet the whole reason I'm thinking about this is the discussion late last week about ways to teach Logic. I learned more about logic in my Discrete Mathematics course in college than I did anywhere else.

[dsayers]

Thanks for posting this. I definitely see myself in that. I've gotten really good at cutting through the narrative and performative contradictions, so I try to encourage others to not waste their efforts on "more frivolous" things. I'm constantly striving to do so in a way that won't be interpreted as the opposite (a discouragement). It does no good to disenfranchise people who are in fact assets.

[Lingum]

I've seen that conversation with programmers countless times. It's such an abhorrent display of self-indulgence and narcissism. In a podcast I heard a while ago, there was a brief discussion about how many gamers develop delusions of grandieur in isolation.

 

I think it's reasonable to interpret from this kind of behavior that the person is incapable of

• Letting an oppurtunity for self-congratulation go by
• Considering the needs or goals of another person
• Helping another person
• Not denigrating others

 

Having seen this conversation play out countless times in my life, I consider it the textbook example of narcissism. I would recommend everyone keep a look out for it, as it will help you steer clear of some highly dysfunctional and abusive people. This isn't a conversation that happens in isolation. It's a part of a consistent coping mechanism narcissists use to manage their volatile ego. My personal experience growing up around several people like this, is that they erode your identity over time. They seem to take comfort in killing your enthusiasm and joy.

 

Hope this is of some help.

[William Wyatt]

I think it's all in the way these self righteous "philosophers" fraise it. 


If he said what he said in a more empathetic tone, perhaps even asking him if he has considered an alternative the the mind/body problem? 
Here is a brief example of only a minor alteration to the original statement of the example philosopher:

"I'm sorry to inform you, but I've been studying philosophy for a while, and the mind/body problem is merely a problem with definitions. They're only separate in your mind because you've been conditioned by language and culture to believe they are different. You should get into something meaty like epistemological solipsism. Show the idealism that only new eyes can bring! If you are looking deep for a sense of meaning and purpose in your life, trying to create a unified grand theory, I also suggest delving into self knowledge and psychology with someone like Daniel Makckler or Steven Summerstone :)"

See how invoking empathy and self knowledge makes all the difference? this may still be a little excessive, but at least it's polite

[Pepin]

If you are in the beginner position, realize that there are hundreds to thousands of well qualified experts with conflicting opinions, and very few likely agree with that guy.

 

I think it is important to teach people. If someone is interested in problem x, and you have a lot of knowledge about problem x, don't show off, rather open a socratic dialogue. They may actually have some unique thoughts and good reasoning that will intrigue you.

 

What I find really interesting is what people think and believe, and why. Figuring and finding it out I find far more interesting than the sound of my voice. The calculations that people do before every sentence as to phrasing, word choice, and what this will and won't say is so fascinating. You are also in a better position to understand and talk to them when that it your goal.

[IndianaLee]

Very interesting. 

If anyone ever tries to tell me I must do something or I'm an idiot or "this is the only way to do something" then I'm immediately skeptical about their reasoning or agenda. Why are they so afraid of me finding out information is my worry. I mean, if something is true, it's true and opinion doesn't matter. :-) I can figure that out on my own, but I totally agree that we must encourage others via being kind. 

Just my humble two pence though. :-) 

Tim

I totally agree Lingum.

 

It's negative enforcement by the narcissist! They are trying to control by saying you must do this, or are wrong for using this methodology or tool, etc, if it's especially in the form of negative or coercive suggestions.  

 

Working in the IT field in the 90's, and doing so after just discovering computers on my own and not having an education above high school, and in a time when they only had punch card main frames, etc, (yes I'm old)   I was thankfully taken under the wing of a smart guy that did a lot of Data Warehousing and other stuff, but he was great at making sure you understood how to think rationally and used the correct logic and ration to solve the problem at hand, and he never tried to coercively tell anyone what tool to use or how to make choices. This is for sure a big sign of a person that has problems..  

 

Great points. 

 

Tim

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I've seen that conversation with programmers countless times. It's such an abhorrent display of self-indulgence and narcissism. In a podcast I heard a while ago, there was a brief discussion about how many gamers develop delusions of grandieur in isolation.

 

I think it's reasonable to interpret from this kind of behavior that the person is incapable of

• Letting an oppurtunity for self-congratulation go by
• Considering the needs or goals of another person
• Helping another person
• Not denigrating others

 

Having seen this conversation play out countless times in my life, I consider it the textbook example of narcissism. I would recommend everyone keep a look out for it, as it will help you steer clear of some highly dysfunctional and abusive people. This isn't a conversation that happens in isolation. It's a part of a consistent coping mechanism narcissists use to manage their volatile ego. My personal experience growing up around several people like this, is that they erode your identity over time. They seem to take comfort in killing your enthusiasm and joy.

 

Hope this is of some help.