I stopped abuse, but had to call a cop... I have mixed feelings about this.

[prolix]

Negative 40 reputation should be a signal to everyone not to read a member's posts. I only read what other members have quoted. Stop engaging and the troll will go away.

Can anyone describe what may be troll-like about my posts. Seems like a lot of adjectives and not a lot of logic and reason to me...

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

Hmmm... No, I can't say I do. Not that I have much of a choice on those things. Better alternatives might exist, but we won't see it so long as the State is around.

Oh, is that your point maybe? That currently there's not much of an option?

Precisely. You use the state all day every day. You live supremely on violence just like the rest of us, so why is it that the only time you get upset from using it is when you're doing so in an effort to stop violence?

[Zelenn]

Precisely. You use the state all day every day. You live supremely on violence just like the rest of us, so why is it that the only time you get upset from using it is when you're doing so in an effort to stop violence?

I suppose my concern is, as I discovered in this thread, that I may have used the cop as a form of transferring responsibility of action.

 

I'm not sure this is actually true, but some of the other posters had some really good suggestions for things I could have done, but didn't. Emotional revulsion at the spectacle basically left me paralyzed and un able to take action, but surely, I could have at least talked to the boy or refocused his attention. Confronting the women was a losing proposition, but interacting with the boy was not.

 

I'm wondering if calling on the State, even in difficult situations like this, can't sometimes be simply a way of using the State to avoid the (perceived) danger of taking personal action and "getting in the fight" ourselves?

 

Since you train Aikido, let me mention the philosophy behind some of our techniques and movements and think about if they apply here.

 

Irimi- A forward movement. Moving in to our attackers space. To Enter (Without Fear.)

 

Drawing Uke Out-- Throwing a strike designed not to initiate violence so much as to provoke a predictable counter response from an opponent who has already communicated hostile intentions, but has not yet taken action.

 

I now wonder if, instead of calling a cop who turned out to be useless, it might have been better (though certainly more demanding of ones courage) to Irimi, to enter without fear into this conflict and interact with the boy, almost certainly drawing out the anger in these women. Once their hostility is out and open, we can deal with it. The cop would have been much more useful, if the women HAD BEEN angry and hysterical.

 

Its almost as if, we as a culture turn a blind eye to the anger and abuse done to children; that cop walked all through that bus station and saw this boy before I had ever said anything to him, but he did nothing until I asked him specifically. However, If that anger involves an adult who can engage back, now the situation has to be dealt with.

 

It would almost have been preferable, to non violently provoke the women into being more angry and more violently irrational than usual. Once they've become "too angry" (apparently hitting kids doesn't count eh?) now they have to contained.

[Bedouin]

Just wondering, if they pull the race card, why does that matter beyond the social disapproval, if at all?

Not saying I would act any differently but what're your thoughts?

[Zelenn]

Just wondering, if they pull the race card, why does that matter beyond the social disapproval, if at all?Not saying I would act any differently but what're your thoughts?

That's a good question. I suppose in the long run, it doesn't matter if they throw the race card around. I believe I spoke of fear of losing my bus ticket as my reason for hesitancy, Grayhound has been known to revoke tickets and leave stranded those who "cause trouble."

 

 

 

I've been gone for a while, busy week, and I can't believe nobody has touched this. Does anybody think that there is an element of responsibility transfer in calling on the State in situations where personal action is possible? If one witnesses abuse, does a man have a responsibility to act? Does calling a cop count as making good on that responsibility?

 

Where are all the philosophers? I heard they hang out somewhere around here. Lol. ;-)

[prolix]

. I suppose in the long run, it doesn't matter if they throw the race card around.

 

Well then i guess you owe me an apology for when I was asking why it would matter, you kinda gave me a great big pile of shit...

[luxfelix]

Does anybody think that there is an element of responsibility transfer in calling on the State in situations where personal action is possible? If one witnesses abuse, does a man have a responsibility to act? Does calling a cop count as making good on that responsibility?

 

I don't know about responsibility (read as "obligation"?) to act, though it would certainly be in their interest to stop the abuse; and, if they are unable to stop the abuse on their own, calling for the help of someone whom can and agrees to stop the abuse would work as well.

[Zelenn]

I don't know about responsibility (read as "obligation"?) to act, though it would certainly be in their interest to stop the abuse; and, if they are unable to stop the abuse on their own, calling for the help of someone whom can and agrees to stop the abuse would work as well.

OK.

 

 

 

And Prolix, stop down voting all my posts. You're trashing my reputation for no reason and its childish.

[prolix]

 

 

 

And Prolix, stop down voting all my posts. You're trashing my reputation for no reason and its childish.

Still waiting for that apology...

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

I suppose my concern is, as I discovered in this thread, that I may have used the cop as a form of transferring responsibility of action.

 

I'm not sure this is actually true, but some of the other posters had some really good suggestions for things I could have done, but didn't. Emotional revulsion at the spectacle basically left me paralyzed and un able to take action, but surely, I could have at least talked to the boy or refocused his attention. Confronting the women was a losing proposition, but interacting with the boy was not.

 

I'm wondering if calling on the State, even in difficult situations like this, can't sometimes be simply a way of using the State to avoid the (perceived) danger of taking personal action and "getting in the fight" ourselves?

 

Since you train Aikido, let me mention the philosophy behind some of our techniques and movements and think about if they apply here.

 

Irimi- A forward movement. Moving in to our attackers space. To Enter (Without Fear.)

 

Drawing Uke Out-- Throwing a strike designed not to initiate violence so much as to provoke a predictable counter response from an opponent who has already communicated hostile intentions, but has not yet taken action.

 

I now wonder if, instead of calling a cop who turned out to be useless, it might have been better (though certainly more demanding of ones courage) to Irimi, to enter without fear into this conflict and interact with the boy, almost certainly drawing out the anger in these women. Once their hostility is out and open, we can deal with it. The cop would have been much more useful, if the women HAD BEEN angry and hysterical.

 

Its almost as if, we as a culture turn a blind eye to the anger and abuse done to children; that cop walked all through that bus station and saw this boy before I had ever said anything to him, but he did nothing until I asked him specifically. However, If that anger involves an adult who can engage back, now the situation has to be dealt with.

 

It would almost have been preferable, to non violently provoke the women into being more angry and more violently irrational than usual. Once they've become "too angry" (apparently hitting kids doesn't count eh?) now they have to contained.

 

Irimi is your triangle and drawing out uke is your circle, which square did you have in mind?

 

In terms of neutralizing that specific incident, yes, you definitely could have done that. Human beings, like any animal, have bilateral symmetry. This means we have the ability to focus our actions on specific points. This is in contrast to a tree or a single-celled organism, which are more or less omnidirectional in their uselessness (in terms of their abilities to perform actions). And human beings, like any predator, initiate their prey by focusing the point of their bilateral symmetry (i.e. the center line/sandou) onto the prey. The prey, being wise to such things, will instinctively identify a predator and move to defend itself in whatever fashion it deems fit (fight, flight, freeze, or achieve kuzushi if they've trained long enough ). Especially with the women so angry, it would have been a breeze to have them adjust that anger to you and amplify it, and if you were aware of the space and the geometry between you two, it also would have been easy to keep yourself safe. Being able to smugly smirk while the other goes haywire at you would be a good thing for you when the cop walked in, indeed.

 

However, this is my concern, and I hear Stef mention this every once in awhile: how do you know the child simply wouldn't have received more abuse later due to this incident? This is the Catch 22 everyone on these boards experiences when they attempt child abuse intervention: how do I know what I'm doing isn't just going to make things worse later? I dunno. That's simply a call that you have to make in the moment with courage (i.e. without fear). Your hesitation to act wasn't simply for yourself, but it was also in calculation of "will this actually work for the kid?"

 

You did fine. Analyze it, learn from it, and do better in the future.

[Matthew Ed Moran]

I empathize with your concern, but I think you are boxing yourself into a conundrum unnecessarily. I think that is most exemplified in this recent statement of yours:

 

"I suppose my concern is, as I discovered in this thread, that I may have used the cop as a form of transferring responsibility of action."

 

I didn't read the rest of that post (read whole first page - shame on me for reading the trolling), but I don't see what there is to this idea of "transferring responsibility." Calling a cop to help is not transferring *moral* responsibility. If you are handicapped to deal with the situation, it is best of you to call someone who is better equipped. The question is a matter of efficacy, and the most moral thing to do, in my opinion, is to resolve the situation as peacefully as possible, and to comfort the child and create a lasting impression (hopefully, best case scenario). I think that is breaking it down to the fullest extent. I think giving it even the attention you have is far more than most people would offer, and you have far exceeded the moral call of duty, or at least satisfied it fully.

 

I think the matter more worth your attention is how efficacious could you have been? What is most practical? 

 

But to feel shame, cowardice, or any self-criticism in this situation I opine is utterly unjustified.

[Zelenn]

Still waiting for that apology...

So your method of negotiation is to routinely terrorize me by trashing my reputation, down voting every post I make because you're upset, and being an all around shit head on my threads? I've noticed that other posts I have made which have nothing to do with you or this thread have also been down voted, seemingly without reason. Are you actually searching out my other posts and down voting them?

 

Dude, this is cyberbullying. You were trolling. I called you out on it, I asked you politely to stop. You didn't. I ordered you to stop, else this would go to a Mod and you've stepped up your game. Shit just got real bro. You are not helpful on these boards and are blatantly trolling.

 

Moderators, why is this guy still on the boards? He clearly has no interest in rational discourse and has all but admitted to trolling. This is not the only thread where his actions have been disruptive.

[prolix]

So your method of negotiation is to routinely terrorize me by trashing my reputation, down voting every post I make because you're upset, and being an all around shit head on my threads? I've noticed that other posts I have made which have nothing to do with you or this thread have also been down voted, seemingly without reason. Are you actually searching out my other posts and down voting them?

 

Dude, this is cyberbullying. You were trolling. I called you out on it, I asked you politely to stop. You didn't. I ordered you to stop, else this would go to a Mod and you've stepped up your game. Shit just got real bro. You are not helpful on these boards and are blatantly trolling.

 

Moderators, why is this guy still on the boards? He clearly has no interest in rational discourse and has all but admitted to trolling. This is not the only thread where his actions have been disruptive.

Yea, that is not what happened. I am not trolling. I had a concern about "the race card" aspect  early on, a concern that you only recently developed later in the thread. You resisted my early concern and gave me a huge load of grief about it.

 

Can you try to re-read the exchange without the bias that I am antagonizing or being rude? I asked a simple question, that later on in the thread you even addressed, and then you totally took it the wrong way despite me urging you not to. Look at your first response to me and my original question. "How is race relevant?" You totally assumed I was calling you a racist and characterizing your actions as horrible.

 

Then later you admit that race was not really relevant, but you managed to give me a load of grief in the meantime and casting me as the troll for asking about the relevancy and giving possibilities of alternative relevancies. I wasn't even saying that race WAS irrelevant. I was asking how it could be or could not be relevant, just asking. You assumed that my position is that it was irrelevant, again, an assumption that had nothing to do with my intentions. I simply wanted you to speak to me like I am a real human being. Then when I point that out, just double down and start telling me what to do again and making more assumptions and telling the mods what to do. It is really quite confusing for me...

[prolix]

So your method of negotiation is to routinely terrorize me by trashing my reputation, down voting every post I make because you're upset, and being an all around shit head on my threads? I've noticed that other posts I have made which have nothing to do with you or this thread have also been down voted, seemingly without reason. Are you actually searching out my other posts and down voting them?

 

Dude, this is cyberbullying. You were trolling. I called you out on it, I asked you politely to stop. You didn't. I ordered you to stop, else this would go to a Mod and you've stepped up your game. Shit just got real bro. You are not helpful on these boards and are blatantly trolling.

 

Moderators, why is this guy still on the boards? He clearly has no interest in rational discourse and has all but admitted to trolling. This is not the only thread where his actions have been disruptive.

• Please avoid accusing someone of bad intentions without any evidence. “Oh, so whenever you are wrong, you just run away!” “Oh, you're just changing the topic because you can't handle the truth!” Even if it turns out to be true, this kind of hostility will never bring enlightenment.

https://board.freedomainradio.com/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

[shirgall]

Zelenn, I don't thank people enough for this. Thank you for standing up to abuse and holding your ground.

[Better Future]

My 2 cents is that the wrong people are reproducing.  Dealing with the consequences of that is like starving yourself and then taking painkillers to fix the resulting stomach pain.  Getting to the root of the issue, unqualified parents, would do away with most child abuse issues.  It would also solve most other social problems in society.

[TheFreeMarketIsAnarchy]

Thought I would share this here rather than start a whole new thread but last night I heard a child loudly crying in distress fro the street outside my house. I looked out the window and saw her in a state of distress and her mother standing over her coldly speaking to her, not kneeling to talk with her or hugging her or anything.

 

The dispute was clearly that the daughter didn't want to go where the mother was taking her. The mother then proceeds to walk away from her child leaving the poor girl standing and wailing on her own in the dark street. The cries that the child was making when she did that brought me to tears and I began to panic and grabbed my shoes. The mother turned around however after walking a good way up the street without her child and simply beckoned with her hands for the child to catch up as if she was a dog. The child did not move and continued to cry. The mother then walked back to her daughter and stood over her again saying some words and then repeated her walking away without her daughter. At this point I had my shoes on and was in a state of panic desperate to help but wondering what I could do.

 

As I put my shoes on I watched the mother turn again and go back to her daughter. She eventually picked her up and her child began to throw her fists towards her mother and shouted 'I don't want to be carried' over and over. She then took her into one of the stairways further up my street which I assume is where they live. Watching this happen was incredibly distressing. My question is related to this thread - when do we intervene and when don't we? The trauma that child was experiencing was horrific and brought up many memories of my own childhood. Should I have ran down to the street and confronted the mother? I would love to hear what other members feel they would have done in the same situation, the feeling of powerlessness to help that I experienced was upsetting so if there's something i could have/should have done it would be great to know for the future. 

 

I just can't believe that any mother could think that in that situation simulating physically abandoning her child is going to make the child want to run after her. If you need to physically abduct your own child to come home with you something is very very wrong with your parenting.