Kason Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Recently Stef did a show talking about, "If you have an interaction with a police officer- you must submit. or they will escalate the situation until you submit or until you are incapacitated or dead." This thought has been bouncing around my head with the resounding sound of truth. I'm a bit horrified that I haven't thought about it with such a clarity of thought before. Then -- while at work on lunch I stumble upon this... http://thefreethoughtproject.com/charges-cop-killed-19-year-old-girl-fleeing-party/ I thought I would share, hopefully to enlighten those around us. Do not run or try to fight back. All you can do is hope they don't hurt you too bad. -- Avoid at all costs. ~Kason 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFreeMarketIsAnarchy Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 That is a horrible story I mean where I live it would have been perfectly legal for someone of her age to drink, I can't believe they shot her. Things are so bad with the police force it is definitely the responsibility of the citizen at this point to realise that resistance is inviting them to escalate to potentially deadly force. The police know fine well that they can get away with it. Scary times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I'm a bit horrified that I haven't thought about it with such a clarity of thought before. The escalation is really important to understand. The very act of a policeman turning on his light bar behind you is a DEATH THREAT. Another thing to consider that I find helpful is to remember that policemen are like gang members. Whether it's personal unresolved trauma or social pressure from within, they are rewarded for initiating the use of force against others. Like any mugger, they too prefer to get away with it rather than being "caught." That's why rather than going door to door and taking your money, they wait for you to cross arbitrary lines so that others will actually applaud them for stealing from or assaulting you. At the same time, it's important to remember that these people are victims themselves. Whether it's that they were abused directly and are seeking retribution or indirectly by not being taught to think rationally which would allow for them to see through the lie that they could exist in a different moral category. If we could help the enforcer class to process the trauma of their past and they said no to the ruling class, we'd have freedom today and without a drop of bloodshed. Dare to dream, I know. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powder Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I have a defiant streak, grew up with violence and bullying. I used to be resistant and arrogant with authority figures like cops and customs officers, luckily I only got tickets and had my car torn apart with searches. I like to think I am smarter about this stuff now and I act friendly and polite and as cooperative as I can be with anyone that has the ability of mess up me or my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathanm Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Once a cop interacts with you it's like a zip tie, there is NO reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 so how different would a private security officer be? is a private security officer taught to just let people get away with theft, murder, rape ( lets just say these are three things police are taught to chase people down for)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 so how different would a private security officer be? is a private security officer taught to just let people get away with theft, murder, rape ( lets just say these are three things police are taught to chase people down for)? People who hire us own the property they pay us to protect. They can delegate that right to whomever they choose. Besides, who's talking about theft, murder, and rape? Do you know of any legal code that says "thou shalt not steal, assault, rape, or murder" and nothing else? It seems to me that any legal code you could point to has hundreds and thousands of pages of arbitrary edicts that THEY will steal from, assault, rape, or murder YOU for crossing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fractional slacker Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 At the same time, it's important to remember that these people are victims themselves. How do you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Allison Gopnik's research has shown that we are born empathetic. They wouldn't be able to even accept the lie of different moral categories without somebody abusing them during their formative years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 People who hire us own the property they pay us to protect. They can delegate that right to whomever they choose. Besides, who's talking about theft, murder, and rape? Do you know of any legal code that says "thou shalt not steal, assault, rape, or murder" and nothing else? It seems to me that any legal code you could point to has hundreds and thousands of pages of arbitrary edicts that THEY will steal from, assault, rape, or murder YOU for crossing. so does the private security force no longer have the right to detain people that flee the property that the property owners pay the security force to protect? so say a police unit was reduced to the rights that people could delegate to the unit and those rights only. won't they still have to right to detain people that flee if there is some reasonable reason to try and detain the person that fled? just looking at, 99% of police encounters don't end with someone dying, or getting hurt, but the percentage goes up a lot when people flee from the police. would it be that the way to get away from crimes in a world where rights were just delegated would be simply to flee onto someone else s property? take all the arbitary edits out of the equation, and just looking at procedure to detain people, i think that would make it simply that there is a danger to try and resist detainment. after a detainment, people can then look at if rights were violated by the detainment, but i think detainment is something that can be within delegated rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I think you've taken this further off topic. There's a grade. If somebody steals a pencil from you, you COULD chase them down and hold them accountable for value equal to the pencil and the amount of effort you were forced to put into settling the debt. Most people wouldn't. If you know somebody has committed a murder for example, you could detain them right now even if you're not a policeman. Perhaps I don't understand what you're asking. As I already pointed out, police typically are not only detaining people who steal, assault, rape, and murder and will in fact commit as much if you don't comply. It's this risk that leads you to believe that 99% of police encounters don't lead to people getting hurt. Like taxes. People file taxes not because they consent to their money being taken, but to avoid the alternative consequences. I was recently en route to a triple burglar alarm (read: not a false alarm), so I had backup on the way. He needed me to be there for his protection also. A cop pulled me over for driving safely. This one light bulb said otherwise, but it was provably wrong (no other motorist within a mile except the deputy who was approaching from BEHIND). Even though I COMPLETELY disagreed with the decision of pulling over instead of backing up my partner in a potentially life or death scenario, I pulled over anyways because of what would've happened if I hadn't. The only reason nobody got hurt there is because I complied with the demands of my aggressor. My behavior there is not evidence of a lack of aggression as you suggest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 i mean for the topic to be about the dangers of running from police, or others whose job it is to detain or otherwise control a situation. police get more violent when people don't comply, but this is mainly a problem when they are being the aggressors. i think i would expect a person on the defending side to get more violent if a aggressor chose to resist the defence. sometimes cops are on the aggressive side, and sometimes they aren't. what were the rules of driving on that road, since where i am there are drivers licenses required for public roads, and not stopping for a red light would be considered a traffic violation of that drivers license? for our drivers license, its stop at red lights, and not stop at red lights unless there are no cars about to cross. with the information the cop had at the time, he could think you were the aggressor and he was the defender. now if there was a way to communicate circumstances, then maybe people are more clear, and the cop goes in front and goes to the scene as well and can change all the lights to green with you following him? it seems there could be situations where lack of information can cause perceptions that a cop is being a aggressor, when the cops perceives he is being a defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. D. Stembal Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Relevant Larkin Rose video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cElTyqJkMEw#t=41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GasCap Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 I have a defiant streak, grew up with violence and bullying. I used to be resistant and arrogant with authority figures like cops and customs officers, luckily I only got tickets and had my car torn apart with searches. I like to think I am smarter about this stuff now and I act friendly and polite and as cooperative as I can be with anyone that has the ability of mess up me or my life. I act as polite as possible even mcd frontlines, dont want spit in my burger... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iHuman Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Recently Stef did a show talking about, "If you have an interaction with a police officer- you must submit. or they will escalate the situation until you submit or until you are incapacitated or dead." This thought has been bouncing around my head with the resounding sound of truth. I'm a bit horrified that I haven't thought about it with such a clarity of thought before. Then -- while at work on lunch I stumble upon this... http://thefreethoughtproject.com/charges-cop-killed-19-year-old-girl-fleeing-party/ I thought I would share, hopefully to enlighten those around us. Do not run or try to fight back. All you can do is hope they don't hurt you too bad. -- Avoid at all costs. ~Kason Perhaps, but their is the current and ongoing problem with police becoming more and more unhinged to the degree that they take on a Intent that you are just plain going to end up in a pine box regardless of anything. (No Escalation, no crimes or wrongdoing on your part, just they decide they want to kill you and that's the end of it) The absolute lack of any willingness on the Police Departments part and on that of other Policemen do do "Anything" to even try to calm down/weed out the problem has brought the situation to a point that several US States have now Passed laws to give protections to people who have no choice but to resort to killing the cop that is threatening their life. http://thefreethoughtproject.com/state-passes-law-legalize-self-defense-police/ That all said and done however it unfortunately does not "Stop" the cops from doing their usual "Extreme Tribal Retaliation" against anyone who kills a cop even if it is justified in court, many tend to have a attitude of "You Kill a cop, circumstances be damned, You're Life is Forfeit" which is part of why the public's trust of them is evaporating ever faster, and they actualy wonder why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirgall Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 The absolute lack of any willingness on the Police Departments part and on that of other Policemen do do "Anything" to even try to calm down/weed out the problem has brought the situation to a point that several US States have now Passed laws to give protections to people who have no choice but to resort to killing the cop that is threatening their life. There is evidence to the contrary on this one, although it might just be my rural experience. Police departments do have mandatory training on use of force doctrine, appropriate escalation and de-escalation, less lethal alternatives, and so on. What drives the opposite, in my opinion, is the "drug war", the rhetoric around the "terror war", and what amounts to free tanks, cool-looking tactical gear, and military-style training from state and national budgets. For example. some of us older folks will remember the Coast Guard being primarily in the news when they rescued boaters or helped with sudden storms. Now what I see involves immigration enforcement and drug seizures. It used to be the Navy that did the "projecting power" portion of the seaborne mission. Now it's both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iHuman Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 There is evidence to the contrary on this one, although it might just be my rural experience. Police departments do have mandatory training on use of force doctrine, appropriate escalation and de-escalation, less lethal alternatives, and so on. What drives the opposite, in my opinion, is the "drug war", the rhetoric around the "terror war", and what amounts to free tanks, cool-looking tactical gear, and military-style training from state and national budgets. For example. some of us older folks will remember the Coast Guard being primarily in the news when they rescued boaters or helped with sudden storms. Now what I see involves immigration enforcement and drug seizures. It used to be the Navy that did the "projecting power" portion of the seaborne mission. Now it's both. Rural Police tend to be a completely different ball of wax, the problem i've mentioned is primarily in/near cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFskinnerPunk Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I am often thought of as a trouble maker and anti-authority type of dude, but in my experience, I have seen cops as guys who just want to go home safe at the end of the day. If they engage in forceful physical behavior (a rare thing), they know that they will endure all manner of cross examination and possible career ending consequences. They just want to cash their check and go home. They don't want any drama. When I lived near "the hood", I saw (personally or on the local news) cops routinely mocked, laughed at and, of course, exposed to outrageous violence and brazen threats. With that, I am actually impressed with the relatively low numbers of brutal responses from the police. I would expect that we'd find more policemen emotionally "snapping" and engaging in far more dramatic forms of aggression. So here we are... pounding the carpet for any crumb of police brutality that we can find (especially when the cop is white and the victim is black).... and all we have over the past 6 months is the one in Ferguson and this dude resisting arrest in NY? In both cases, there are excellent reasons to believe that the cops behaved as they were trained.... with nary a hint of racism. The media is surely scouring the nation for better cases... like a soft spoken black chemist being chased and beaten by a sadistic southern white cop. Oh my god, they'd have a hard time suppressing their grins if they could just find such a case of "racism!". But, apparently, they can't find such a case. Given the horrendous and bold confrontational behavior of some of our citizens, it is actually something of a miracle that we are finding so few dramatic cases. Cops are human, why aren't more of them (wrongfully) snapping? Again, surely the media is combing the nation for any juicy tid bits they can find...and still coming up rather empty. Bucking the trend here, I know, but isn't this good news? my rambling first post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirgall Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 If this issue wasn't charged enough, let me add this without comment: http://www.amren.com/features/2014/05/confessions-of-a-public-defender/#.U3GDQBBUW99.facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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