Is my girlfriend being a 'spiritual' jew a big deal?

[robmcmullan]

Hey everyone...

 

 I've been with my girlfriend now for a year and it has been great. She is kind, loving, beautiful, hard working, giving and absolutely thinks the world of me. She respects me and how I think (i'm a FDR listener). She respects my work (I'm a professional musician). We have a very frank and honest relationship, but also very loving and I would say a very functional relationship. We talk openly when we disagree etc etc… she really is just a great person and I respect her… which for me is the basis of loving her. 

 

 She is Jewish, her fathers side are very secular, with her grand mother saying to me quite honestly that she doesn't like religion so I'm on a similar page there. Her brothers are into music and one of them is studying science at university. So lots of common ground with me. 

 

Her mother was born in Israel and is not religious in practise but very 'spiritual'… believes in god, but probably couldn't give you a working definition of what god is if you know what I mean. My girlfriend is like that too. I'm an atheist FDR listener so I say that I think it's not legitimate to believe something that can't be proven, or even defined. 

My GF says that she believes everything I do about the material world, and she loves the way I think and never wants to try and change me or push any other belief on my…. but that she believes in an energy behind everything, and thats what she calls god. An energy in everything that gives it life. 

 

So she left last week for a trip to visit family in Israel.. and she signed up for this thing they call the 'birthright' tour or something. Basically if they left Israel before a certain age and are jews living elsewhere… they may qualify for a free trip to Israel to learn about it. They have their flights paid for and they have to go on a 10 day tour around seeing sights of Israel. At least thats what she told me. 

Now she has been over there a few days and I skyped with her the other night and she started telling me that they go around with a Rabbi on this tour and it seemed like the whole thing was very 'bible camp' for young Jews. Then she starts telling me that she is feeling things that she forgot she could feel, and feeling her belief in god become stronger… and even telling me that she was listening to the Rabbi talk and she was crying because it was so beautiful… yet she couldn't tell me exactly what he was saying or why it was so right or beautiful, only that she felt it was right in her body. I think they were even encouraged to kiss the ground as the land of Israel is their 'birthright'. 

I'm kind of freaked out because I see this as religious and cultural brainwashing and as a threat to our relationship because its just so antithetical to how I see religion and culture. I also feel like she is letting all this play on the tribal, in-group euphoria part of her brain, and that it seems to have power over her. And the more power over it has… it think… the less she is thinking for herself and strengthening her identity as an individual. 

When we talk she understands me, but now she is around other people and she is saying different things… it feels like she is a bit of a flag in the wind of others influence, and that makes me feel insecure to invest my heart in her. 

My friends say that she is likely just getting a bit swept up in being overseas and that she is only young (23) and that as i'm older (30) I have a little more experience than her, so its likely no big deal and that she still has lots of learning to do. I kind of agree but I don't want a slippery slope into me becoming some kind of father figure, or patronising her as the older one that knows better. I don't want that I want an equal partner. 

I also worry about the degree to which the seeds of religious and cultural indoctrination are embedded within her brain and if we marry and have children, how important will it be? How much will this affect my life and my children's lives?

 I don't talk to my family and my friends are great but generally say that i'm a uniquely 'analytical' one so tend to downplay it and don't provide too much analysis. I've also booked into a therapist but I can't see him for a couple of months so i'm kind of at a loss for thoughtful and philosophical feedback! haha

So any thoughts or perspectives you can offer are much appreciated, 

Thanks

Rob














 

[TheAuger]

You're concerns are valid, in my opinion.  

 

Is she aware that you're an atheist?  If so, what was her response when you told her.  If you haven't told her, you might need to ask yourself, 'why haven't I told her?'.

 

According to a Haaretz poll, only 38% of Jews are religious, 2% atheists, and the rest secular.  Where does she fall (might be a conversation starter)?  Im not sure if this was Israeli Jews or Jews internationally.

 

Apparently she is a theist -- I'd suggest working into a conversation where you ask her about her reasons for believing in a deity, and then maybe gently press her a little further for evidence for her beliefs without making it sound like a trap or an ambush.  

 

Her response and tone will tell you a great deal.

 

The whole god is energy thing is pretty hollow, imo -- is all energy god, or if god is energy, then why not just call it energy (which we have evidence for and is demonstrably true)?  Why tack on a god?

 

I've had this very conversation with a lot of women -- I eventually learned to find out early on -- before asking them out or on the first date.  I don't believe in *not* talking about religion on the first date.  It's a stupid "rule"!

 

But I might have this conversation ASAP.

[WasatchMan]

I think an enlightening question to ask her is what she plans to teach her children about god and the meaning of having a Jewish identity.  I don't know if it is conscious or not, but I have known a lot of women that are not religious in their early 20s and go immediately back to their religion when they start having kids (to feed them their brains).

[robmcmullan]

Thanks for the answers guys, 

 

Yes I've already had this talk numerous times, as I said i'm very honest, even blunt with her. And she says the loves about me the way I think and would never try to change it. But she also seems to be speaking differently now that she has gone to Israel, and this undermines my confidence in her. 

I've even been so blunt that when she asks me to explain the feeling she gets inside about being around other jews and being in Israel and stuff, I just say that well we are all 'brainwashed' into our own tribes and stuff, and its not unique to her, we all grow up a certain way… but we are social and often conformist animals, and that feeling she gets s likely her brainwashing as its the culture she grew up with. And that every other group has this same effect so it has nothing to do with it being true, just the in-group high of being around other people in your 'tribe'.

 

But I said that to her months ago, and it seemed to make sense to her and I thought we were on a pretty similar page… but now she's in Israel talking about god and how amazing the land and the rabbi is… so I then wonder, was she just confirming to me when I talked to her, and now she is conforming to others?

 

And yeah I worry about what will happen if we had kids… I have seen that too, where after a big life event like having kids all of a sudden people get consumed with guilt about rejecting god and culture and go crazy back into it. And as Steph has said, having kids brings up your own childhood. 

 

So yeah I wonder how this could affect my life.  And I really thought we were great together and she knows everything about exactly how I think… yet this flip around has got me worried. 

 

 

[J. D. Stembal]

I've dated a number of Jewish women, and none of them were ostensibly religious. They spent the high holidays with their family, but did not identify as religious. I recall asking two Jewish women, "What is Judaism to you? Is it a religion or something more?" They both agreed that it was more than religion; it was a lifestyle and a cultural identity. Therefore, even self-professed secular Jews are racially biased and culturally nationalistic. This made we wonder why a Jewish woman would want to date me since I don't identify as culturally Jewish or anything else for that matter. I'm a Caucasian mutt with relatives who were immigrants from all over Europe. Apparently, Jewish women are allowed to date outside their race because Judaism is a matriarchal society. You are still Jewish if your mom is a Jew because the mother controls the family.

 

Since your girlfriend is very religious, and openly worshiping the state of violence that is Israel, I would be very reluctant to continue seeing her. Once you have children, she will wrestle your children away from you, and your children will be brought up as Jews. This would be like a father who has a strong Italian family background insisting that his children embrace the cultural identity of Italy. If I was a father, I would be very opposed to this kind of cultural and religious brainwashing of my children.

[Libertarian Prepper]

As someone who was raised by Jews who were pretty "spiritual" (a fancy term for superstitious) without any specific religious beliefs, I think I have a pretty good idea of what you're talking about. I was never forced to go to any synagogues or religious schools, but both of my parents clearly believe in superstitious nonsense, in both cases as an extension of their fear of death and desire for some kind of afterlife.

 

To me, her actions are a huge red flag. First of all, she seems to agree with people mindlessly just to conform. When she was around you, she conformed with what you were saying. When she is around religious Jews, she conforms with what they say. I wouldn't want a hollow person who takes on the beliefs of those they are surrounded by to raise my kids. That's a sign of a lack of integrity, courage, curiosity, intelligence, etc. The fact that she can't actually tell you what the Rabbis arguments were is hugely important. It's like someone telling you they discovered a miracle new drug and started popping pills because it has huge health benefits, and then when you ask what they are they say "I dunno". That's deeply disturbing.

 

Secondly, and this is maybe an even bigger issue, is her affinity to Israel. Zionism is a pretty toxic thing. My family is intensely pro-Israel and since I'm an anarchist and anti-zionist, dinner conversations suck. Actually any conversations on any topic suck, but that's another issue. The idea that Jews have some kind of a "birthright" to Israel is genocidal bullshit. Stef has a good video on the history of that but basically Israelis are absolutely in the wrong with what they're doing to Palestinians. They've slaughtered and embargoed them into oblivion, and the Jews who used to peacefully co-exist with muslims in Palestine prior to the creation of the Israeli state protested its creation a lot.

 

Thirdly, besides the nationalism and religiosity, Jews are (in my experience) pretty racist. Certainly within my family, extended family, family friends, acquaintances etc., everyone has been racist, especially towards Arabs. A lot of secular Jews treat Arabs or even muslims in general as sub-human (it's kind of a requirement if you want to slaughter them). If she's using state (tax) money to go on a tour around a country built on slaughter while having religious mind-gams, that's concerning and you have every reason to be concerned. 23 is not an excuse. And if she has no issue with state violence then I would be worried about her not having any qualms with using the guns of government in any possible divorce in the future.

 

In the beginning of your post you talk about how she is kind and loving. If she's pro-Israel and religious, to what extend is that true? I've obviously not met her so you tell me, but have you ever discussed Palestinians with her? I wonder how a conversation like that would go.

 

In short, yes - big red flags and cause for concern. Very understandable and I'm sorry about your experience and her shift towards greater religious insanity.

[robmcmullan]

Hi guys, thanks for the extra replies. 

 

I've talked a fair bit about the Israel/Palestine conflict with her and her family quite honestly, and that is another thing I like about her and her family is that I can have conversations with substance, and I've even given them some of the philosophy stuff too and they are not offended and don't back down in any way, they just engage in a good rational discussion. This kind of thing is a breath of fresh air for me as I have not met many people at all that I can be so honest with, and who can hear an opposite point of view, but then still say that they love and respect me. 

I mean, I may not be able to full on convince them over the course of a year to understand the philosophical arguments for all these things, but to even be in the ball park of these things with people that would give anything I say more than a second thought, seems to me to be a pretty rare thing among girls to date and their families.

I had a huge talk to her dad about it all the other day. I explained to him my views about things such as that the difference between a tree and a forest is the difference between a thing that exists in the world and a concept, and that the forest is a concept for a group of individual things that all actually exist… i.e., trees. I told him that my view is that humans are like trees in that they actually exist as a discreet thing in the real world, and that cultures or religions, i.e. being 'Jewish' are concepts. I then said to him that as we are talking now, and relating, and spending this time together, one human to another… this connection or relationship is something genuine, but the idea that my girlfriend feels so connected to total strangers just because they share the concept 'Jew' I see as an inauthentic connection and not real compared to a relationship between humans who don't necessarily share the same identity 'concepts' but relate to each other as humans. 

And the same with the circumcision thing.. I told him that I don't want it because its a violation of a child's body, and a person's body is their own and not for others to take part of. 

He listened to all my points of view and we debated them a bit. I never expected to change his mind, but he did say that he knew I was a great guy, but never knew how much until now, and that I obviously don't say anything without considerable thought behind it. 

 

At the end of the conversation he told me that If I wanted to marry his daughter I would have his blessing. Not that we are at that point. I asked him what the base line, must-have requirements would be for him, and he said that he honestly thought it would be ideal that she marry a jewish guy, but it wold be no good if she married a jewish guy who beats her up. He said that even if she decided to leave the whole jewish thing behind, his only true must have is that his daughter is happy. It's all a bit of a moot point though because the way she is talking I don't think thats possible… but you know, I think that even though I don't agree with everything he thinks, he obviously could put the happiness and humanity of his daughter above his cultural identity which I think is absolute light years ahead of 99% of the religious people on the world and I respect him for that. 

 And what I mean about my girlfriend being loving and supportive is exactly that. She has never had any financial requirements of me, she doesn't want to be paid for, she loves what I do, she buys me little presents, she cook me food. One time when I was working like crazy I said to her that I was feeling stressed at being so busy, so she stayed behind one time when I left for work and cleaned my house without telling me. I just cam home and it was all looking great and she said that she just wanted to help me out. 

She's also not a feminist, which in Australia I find so refreshing. I honestly don't know what would be harder to deal with… the whole jewish thing, which at least has a strong family focus, and her parents and both of their parents all stayed married… or a common cultural feminist who sees men as pigs and needs to get on the treadmill to work overtime to keep her 'happy' up until the day she gets sick of you and you've had kids and earned enough money for her to bail on you and use the courts to make your life hell. 

Plus she's gorgeous and amazing in bed…. hehe

But the jewish nationalism thing is really scary I agree. I honestly think that the idea that Israel is the jews 'birthright' is just as dongeous an idea as the Nazi's saying the aryan race is superior. And you're right all the uncritical swallowing of these means that she is not courageously looking for truth in these things… she is conforming. 

So now I really don't know how it will pan out.  All my friends love her and think she is just conforming to her environment, which itself as you say is not hugely confidence inspiring. But they think that the conversation will be so much more productive when she is back in 10 days. So I guess I'll just see what happens. 

It's all very painful though because whenever Judaism is not in the room with us, as two humans, we have a great relationship and I love her. But it seems the judaism was always in the room because it can't be separated from her…. 

 

 

[Matthew Ed Moran]

I think it's something to be deeply concerned about. I would like to present to you a recurring theme in your posts which you may be unaware of.

 

More than once in your posts you mention how you are able to have "open" and "honest" discussions with her. You say your girlfriend and her father "respect" the way you think. You suggest they are not combative in response to pointed disagreement, but you mostly do not mention if these disagreements are resolved. And the one time you do explicitly mention a resolution, it seems to be one unregarding of reason and evidence.

 

Here are some examples. You said:

 

"She respects me and how I think (i'm a FDR listener)."

 

What does this mean? Does her respect for the way you think mean she is mutually committed to reason and evidence as a standard for truth? In other words, does she share or desire to share the way you think?

 

"We talk openly when we disagree"

 

Great. But is she receptive to reason and evidence? Can you change her mind based on reason and evidence alone?

 

"Her mother was born in Israel and is not religious in practise but very 'spiritual'… believes in god, but probably couldn't give you a working definition of what god is if you know what I mean. My girlfriend is like that too."

 

What happens if you push back? What would happen if you were to say "that is illogical, unreasonable, and I am concerned that if I cannot persuade you now using reason and evidence, that I may not be able to in the future regarding even more important topics (perhaps deciding if our children should be exposed to your mysticism or the mysticism of your mother)"

 

"My GF says that she believes everything I do about the material world, and she loves the way I think and never wants to try and change me or push any other belief on my…. but that she believes in an energy behind everything, and thats what she calls god. An energy in everything that gives it life."

 

This is very concerning (to me). Look at the language. She doesn't want to try and "change" you. She doesn't want to "push" (describing disagreement as coercive) any belief on you. What does this mean? If you universalize the same standards to her, it means she also does not want to be "changed" or "pushed" into believing anything else. She is pleaing with you not subject her to reason and evidence.

 

What does it also mean? It may mean you will never have, in her, an assertive woman who will be there to help you consider reason and evidence when you most need it, when it is most difficult for you. Because to subject you to reason and evidence when it is difficult is to "change" or "push" you. She "loves" the way you think (just like she "respected" it before). But once again missing is an indication that she shares your commitment to truth.

 

And believing everything you believe about the material world is not compatible with believing in non-material worlds. Everything about a material world excludes the possibility of a non-material world.

 

"Then she starts telling me that she is feeling things that she forgot she could feel, and feeling her belief in god become stronger… and even telling me that she was listening to the Rabbi talk and she was crying because it was so beautiful… yet she couldn't tell me exactly what he was saying or why it was so right or beautiful, only that she felt it was right in her body. I think they were even encouraged to kiss the ground as the land of Israel is their 'birthright'."

 

After noting how freaked out you were about this (I think very rightly so), you say this:

 

"When we talk she understands me"

 

Do you see the pattern now? You're not saying she agrees with you (or that she doesn't agree but is willing to put her arguments against yours). You're saying she understands you. It's not enough for her to understand you. She needs to share your commitment to truth if you're going to have confidence in what you can expect from her in the future. Truth is predictability. Mysticism goes any way the wind blows. I had a "feeling" the my life is to follow this "path" which no longer involves you. I'm not trying to scare you or infer something she might say. But I'm giving you an example of how a life is lead according to mysticism.

 

 

"my friends are great but generally say that i'm a uniquely 'analytical' one so tend to downplay it and don't provide too much analysis."

 

Once again, now with friends, we are encountered with disagreements failing to reach resolution. Calling you "uniquely analytical" is not addressing your concerns. It is not helping you find a resolution. It's deference, and I'd be quite pissed off if this is the effort my friends provided on matters extremely important to me.

 

"I've talked a fair bit about the Israel/Palestine conflict with her and her family quite honestly, and that is another thing I like about her and her family is that I can have conversations with substance, and I've even given them some of the philosophy stuff too and they are not offended and don't back down in any way, they just engage in a good rational discussion."

 

The conversations have substance. They don't back down. Cool. But are they responsive to reason and evidence? You can be open with them. Great. You can disagree to the point where it would be offensive to most other people, but they keep their cool. Excellent. Truly excellent, and I'm sorry those people were not in your life in past days. But be careful not to confuse yourself. Is what you want merely people who won't attack you, or is it people who won't attack you and are responsive to reason and evidence. Being around people who will politely disagree but who are not receptive to evidence will wear thing. First it will seem refreshing. Then it will seem interesting and curious. Then it will seem insulting and erasing.

 

I can't bear to go through the many other examples of the same type of terminology you use where you mention how people love and respect the "way you think," but are not responsive (or at least you fail to mention it if they are) to your arguments.

 

I don't think anything I've said, even if true, should erase hope for you. But it should focus you more on how people respond to your conversations in their ACTIONS. Do they change? The entire point of being open to reason and evidence is to be open to change. Change in mind, and change in action (if one is courageous). I think going forward in this relationship or daring to think about marriage and kids before you have a conversation about this with your girlfriend is testicular suicide, but that is just my opinion based on limited information. I would also do a call-in show with Stef for further insight. Best of luck.

[J. D. Stembal]

Plus she's gorgeous and amazing in bed…. hehe

 

I find this comment particularly concerning. I'm happy that sex is an awesome experience for you. It usually is for everyone, which means that there's nothing particularly special about a woman who is amazing in bed. I would also be highly suspicious of any women who possesses a lot of talent in the bedroom at such a young age. Do you know how many prior relationship she has had, and why they failed? I would keep all these items in mind when thinking critically about your relationship, and its future.

 

Why are you talking to her dad so candidly, and why does it matter that you have his blessing to marry her? Shouldn't it be your goal to have better and more open conversations with his daughter? Her dad can't divorce you and sue you for child support in ten years, having you thrown into prison if you refuse to pay it.

[Tom P]

Just some thoughts from the devil's advocate...

 

Maybe perfect rationality in every sphere of human thought is an unrealistic goal for most people? To eradicate from the mind such obvious nonsense as high religiosity and political authority (one and the same?) can leave one in a pretty lonely place in light of ones own mortality. Perhaps the popular trend towards secularism in the West has not been a trend towards rationality but simply a transference of one irrational belief system to another.

 

Holding steadfast to objective truth is a matter of will, I'm not totally sure that I would be strong-willed enough to reject a little bit of mysticism in  light of some catastrophic life event of which, so far, fortunately, I've been spared. Perhaps 95% rational is as good as we can expect out of most people for the time being and a little bit of relatively benign “spirituality” is OK.

 

But, then again, maybe this is the slippery slope to the abyss of crazytown superstitions...I don't know, not an easy question!

[shirgall]

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?” 
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

 

More quotes here: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/atheism

[robmcmullan]

I would like to to thank everyone for taking the time to comment on this. I really appreciate all the advice. Especially the comment about universalising her behaviour as a means of understanding what she wants from me too… that was a really great insight and is very useful. 

 

 My GF is now back from her trip and we have been talking everything over constantly. The central issue with everything is that she feels pressure from her religious mother, and pressure from 'everyone' in general to marry a jew and live a jewish life. She is even saying now that she is not sure about whether she believes in god or not, and she kinda doesn't care either way. We had lunch with her fathers family who are all jewish but also Atheists and we had a big discussion about religion. She told me that everything we said made so much sense, but she still feels a pull there other way. 

 

But in being able to come to the realisation that she feels pressure from her mum to marry a jew… she also instantly came to the realisation that its wrong that her mum should have that kind of influence over her and that she needs to live her own life and make her own choices. And she loves me and thinks we are perfect together so she is prepared to stand up to her mum about it. It will be very hard for her though, but I will just try and stay supportive. 

I made my concerns clear that she could have such different opinions about it all when she was overseas and in the presence of others… she agreed she felt that's not right and she is going through a process now of thinking about it all and trying to sort it out in her head. She did tell me though that the Rabbi on her trip told her not to be with a non jew… and she felt that pressure from all the leaders on this trip to go back to Israel… but she never bought into that and she could tell that they were trying to influence her into certain decisions. 

 

Her position now is that she is not sure whether she believes in god or not, and that she really doesn't care about it, doesn't care if I believe, and doesn't care to tell our children about it. She says that for her religion was always about family being together, and having dinners and doing little rituals that bring everyone together so the family togetherness of it all she would want to preserve which I obviously have no problem with at all. 

She also hates politics and was able to identify how political the Rabbis were. She also said that the Rabbi would preach to the group the value of not being angry and being peaceful, yet she overheard the Rabbi arguing on the phone and getting quite angry so she could see the hypocrisy there. She also said that the Rabbi would answer her questions but only very shortly and would not give her much time, but would spend much more time explaining and talking to the men and she realised that wasn't right either. 

So it seems in general that she is going through a pretty big change and is facing the challenge of standing up to her mum and standing up to the alter egos in her head which will be hard for her. It really is true that Stefan said that often religion is really just fear of others… and that is certainly the case here. 

I guess it's a bit of a fork in the road and one way she is not strong enough to stand up for what she wants and make her own choices and decides to just conform to what other expect of her… which is a position that I have no respect for. And the other way where she becomes her own person, comes to clear decisions about what she believes and what she wants and stands up to the people that want her to do something else… which is a position that I immensely respect. And it seems that the latter is what is happening. I'm sure it will still be a process but its looking good so far.