Women preferring the company of men

[Kevin Beal]

So, I've had this one scene play out a bunch of times where I'm hanging out with some guys and there's a lady chillaxin' with us and the topic will come up about the differences of dudes hanging out versus ladies hanging out, and almost without exception the woman of the group (when asked) will share that they prefer just hanging out with guys over hanging out with females. Often they will mention that women are crazy, or something to that effect.

 

I wonder what this is all about. I generally prefer the company of men, myself, but sometimes hanging out with the gals can be fun. Maybe it's just whatever mood I'm in, I don't know. I'm not entirely sure why that is.

 

One thing I know is that when I'm hanging out with the gals, it's a little harder to get yourself into the conversation since they seem to have fewer and shorter pauses between thoughts. And there's this weird thing I've noticed (maybe it's just the company I keep) where the ladies like to form consensus about things, like who's in the in-group and who's in the out-group which I really don't like since it never seems to be about principles and just strikes me as status and hierarchies.

 

Questions for discussion:

1) Have you heard this as a guy, or thought it as a woman?

2) What are some of the differences you've noticed between hanging with the girls vs the guys?

3) Why do you think women often prefer hanging out with the fellas, and why do you think the women sometimes find other women to be "crazy"?

4) Do you prefer the company of men over women? Why, why not?

[MMX2010]

One thing I know is that when I'm hanging out with the gals, it's a little harder to get yourself into the conversation since they seem to have fewer and shorter pauses between thoughts. And there's this weird thing I've noticed (maybe it's just the company I keep) where the ladies like to form consensus about things, like who's in the in-group and who's in the out-group which I really don't like since it never seems to be about principles and just strikes me as status and hierarchies.

 

Courtesy of the Onion. 

 

Female Friends Spend Raucous Night Validating The Living Shit Out Of Each Other

 

AKRON, OH—According to witnesses, a tight-knit group of five female friends spent a wild night on the town Saturday, overindulging in emotionally supportive behavior and generally validating the living shit out of each other.

 

Confirming the women get together at least once a month for an all-out, anything-goes session of nonjudgmental reassurances, 28-year-old Sarah Dotson said the evening quickly turned into "a total rager," with the friends sharing excessive amounts of admiration, empathy, and encouragement for one another.

 

"The entire night we just went balls out with the confidence-boosting," Dotson said of the gathering, adding that by 10 p.m. she had already partaken in seven or eight mutual expressions of positive regard. "It was completely insane. We bolstered the shit out of Kelly's self-esteem, and by the time the check came, we had her shouting that her boss was a huge asshole for not recognizing all her hard work and giving her that promotion."

 

"We just kept telling her how fucking talented and beautiful she was until eventually the restaurant had to ask us to leave," Dotson added.

 

As the women moved from one bar to the next, the evening reportedly only grew more and more wild, with the friends telling one another whatever they needed to hear regarding callous comments made by boyfriends, deteriorating relationships with family members, pet deaths, or frustrating new haircuts.

 

"We've always been a group of friends that listens hard, and consoles even harder," said Teri Lange, 28, who admitted that by the end of the night she had lost count of how many thoughtful, heartfelt compliments she had dished out. "Every time I turned around, left and right, there was somebody helping Karen to own the fuck out of the frustration she feels toward her fiancé."

 

"The girls and I just absolutely let loose with that shit until Karen had the strength to accept that her emotions are real whether she likes them or not, and she has to let herself feel them if she ever wants to move on," Lange added.

 

Sources reported that at approximately 11 p.m., the unruly and increasingly self-accepting women got completely out of hand, respecting and valuing each other to the point that many had clearly had far too much validation. One member of the group

reportedly felt so validated she disappeared into the bathroom for a while to cry.

 

Melissa Byers admitted she was still a bit overwhelmed the morning after her binge-validating spree. The 29-year-old told reporters she was hoarse from loudly singing praises, and simply "wiped out" from so much dancing around touchy subjects.

 

"By closing time, we were all getting pretty sloppy with our affirmations, validating anything and everything we could find," said Byers, adding that her neck was stiff from a night spent constantly nodding in agreement. "I must have told Teri at least 15 times she'd made the right move by deciding to try and work things out with her boyfriend. What the hell was I thinking? That guy's a total shitheel."

 

Patrons at Shoemaker's Pub confirmed the rambunctious women would repeatedly get up in each other's faces, stridently identify their true feelings, and embrace for dozens of hugs—only to sit down again and continue on with round after round of the strongest praise.

 

"Almost every night of the week we get a group of ladies like this who get a little bit disruptive and rowdy, but who are basically harmless, for the most part," bartender Mike Kuhn said. "If I get complaints about them being noisy or obnoxious, I'll ask them nicely to settle down."

 

"But I try not to be too hard on them, considering all the stress they've been through lately," Kuhn added. "Sounds like it's been really crazy at work. And when you're busy trying to balance a career and a hectic social life, it must be difficult to find time for yourself."

[J. D. Stembal]

I used to hang out in female circles as a dating tactic. I thought that if one of the women found me to be worthy dating material, the others would also come to that consensus (female group think), and I could freely play their desire for male attention off each other and have my pick of the litter, so to speak. What actually happens is that the alpha female, the one who is the most sexually desirable, runs the pecking order among her friends. Once you've dated or made an obvious pass at one woman of the circle, you can only move down the imagined hierarchy, not up. The reason for this is because the more senior hen will wonder why you didn't try to make a move on her first. (Most likely she was already seeing another guy at the time, and her less attractive friends are more available.) Instead, you settled for one of her less attractive friends. Going for the next girl up the hierarchy second flips the female pecking order around and will usually disrupt the social circle. This is where girls get into disagreements over men, when men try to disturb the paradigm. If the top chick wanted you to make a move on her first, she would have shamed her friends into not flirting with you or accepting your advances.

 

The phenomenon of girls hanging out with the guys is an obvious attempt by women to decrease competition with other women for male attention. This is why you will generally see only one woman embedded within any guy group. When you have two women vying for guy time in a group, they will usually get frustrated with one another, and drama manifests. They openly criticize other women as crazy in an attempt to warn the men to never welcome an outside woman into her group. It's subtle behavior, but an obvious ploy for attractive women to create man harems. Sometimes, this man's woman will invite one of her "besties" or a close relative into the group for a short time if she trusts her.

 

The last time I saw an example of female social dominion and male harems was with a younger woman I met at a cigar lounge a couple years back. We got to talking and flirting a lot so I asked her out on two dates, and she cancelled both dates hours before we were supposed to meet, using questionable excuses. I love shit tests! I told her that this was not acceptable behavior to me, and that I would not ask her out a third time. She seemed nonplussed about it, and we continued to be casual acquaintances who sometimes kicked back and smoked a cigar while chatting.

 

On one occasion, she brought her sister and best friend to the bar lounge, and her older sister showed me some East Coast Swing dancing moves. I asked the older sister out dancing, and she politely declined. When I asked for her reasoning, she indicated that it was out of respect for her sister, and left it at that. Somehow, the younger sister, who I personally judged to be more attractive, held social dominion over her older sister, or maybe I was being fed a line as another shit test. I never saw the older sister again, and I eventually stopped talking to the young woman, seeing her as extremely manipulative.

 

First, she flirts with me, then she shit tests me when I ask her out. I pass the shit test by friend zoning her despite her youth, beauty, and fertility. Then, she clearly strings her sister along to "get her out of the house" to parade her in front of me to test my reaction. I make a move on the older sister, and face proxy rejection. This is like playing chess where the rules change every game. This behavior both annoys me and amuses me. I've learned that I'd rather not be the butt of the joke.

 

As far as communication is concerned, if you are a man, never get between two or more women when they are talking. Your thoughts, needs, and desires are completely invisible in these situations. You will be ignored, interrupted, talked over, and scorned if you say something objectionable just to get attention. After living with a single mother, and seeing how she could barely contain her contempt of me, I would never suggest to any man that they should share a home with a woman, especially a single mother. Ugh. It was so depressing seeing how much her son was suffering and how she blamed it all on the father, taking no personal responsibility for her role in the devastation. I felt like I was a child again with an intense need for motherly attention, and getting the unspoken brush-off, "Not now, honey. Go play with your toys while the grown-ups are talking." I was feeling the same emotions her seven year old son was feeling.

 

Yes, I prefer the company of men over women because men don't actively seek to short circuit my brain with their ovaries. Men actually care about what other men are thinking.

[Kevin Beal]

Completely hilarious Onion article!

 

As far as communication is concerned, if you are a man, never get between two or more women when they are talking. Your thoughts, needs, and desires are completely invisible in these situations. You will be ignored, interrupted, talked over, and scorned if you say something objectionable just to get attention.

Sorry about the craziness of these women, ugh!

 

I've noticed what you are talking about too, but it reminds me of an exception to the rule which I find very interesting.

 

I suspect that a lot of women have an ambivalent relationship with male contradiction. On the one hand, it gets in the way of whatever status thing is going on that I barely understand and that, I imagine, is irritating for them, but at the same time, I've gotten fed up with some of the shit these ladies were saying (in this case about how people shouldn't judge - while judging other people) and I pointed out how irrational what they were saying was in my honestly annoyed tone. When they backpedalled, I stuck in there and didn't let the equivocations slide. I was very surprised later to find out that, despite their frustration with me and not admitting they were wrong, it made me look really attractive. I was told it was "seductive" even which makes me really want to do it more often

 

It reminds me of those scenes in movies where a man and woman are arguing and it escalates to this point where they are in each other's faces, and then *snap* they are making out and some steamy united sexual congress commences. Or when a woman is very irritable and all the younger guys are talking about how she's being, . . . *cough*, . . . mean, and the older guy laughs at their naivety and reveals that she's actually horny.

 

I don't understand it at all. If a lady who's reading this has insight into this, I'd love to hear a woman's perspective on this.

 

And as far as the single woman in male company thing goes, I think your explanation is part of it, but incomplete. Lesbians have told me this too, and married women and women who were much older who would almost certainly not expect to have a relationship with any of the younger fellas in the group. I am convinced it's something to do with the way men communicate with each other.

[Wuzzums]

When I see women interacting with each other to me it seems like they're in a Mexican standoff. It's a very tense situation. One female sets the tone of the conversation (as in what the agreement has to be) and the rest, one by one, have to reciprocate. If one of them fails to do so then she gets kicked out of the group albeit in the most polite fashion. Such tactics include: bringing out topics she doesn't care bout, talking about past events in detail with someone else in which she had no part in, changing location to one that's inconvenient for her, breaking apart the group altogether, pretending they didn't hear what she said, if men are around they start flirting with them to make her feel like she's intruding on a private moment, and so on.

 

As to women preferring hanging out with men, I don't think that's true. The way I see it they're just poisoning the well, they always find a way to talk trash about other women yet when they're in the company of those women they're meek as a babe. Imagine a guy pulling that shit. He'll immediately be branded as having no spine, and rightfully so.

 

Now that I think about it, I can't remember of one instance when a woman complimented one of her peers that wasn't present. They act like salesmen. It's easy for Bill Gates to get investors if he's the only one there and constantly talks shit about Steve Jobs.

 

And don't forget, usually women never seek out conflict so of course she'll say she prefers male groups over women if the topic comes out when she's in a male group. 

[J. D. Stembal]

I was very surprised later to find out that, despite their frustration with me and not admitting they were wrong, it made me look really attractive. I was told it was "seductive" even which makes me really want to do it more often

 

And as far as the single woman in male company thing goes, I think your explanation is part of it, but incomplete. Lesbians have told me this too, and married women and women who were much older who would almost certainly not expect to have a relationship with any of the younger fellas in the group. I am convinced it's something to do with the way men communicate with each other.

 

While we could probably have MMX cite a Rollo Tomassi blog explaining the evolutionary biology behind this specific mechanism, I want to point out how completely irrational it is. I know you feel it, too. Instead of admitting the possibility of being mistaken, the group of women you are contradicting takes aim at your sexual ego, knowing that it's the only wire left to cut to defuse the situation, like MacGyver flailing at the last second to disarm a bomb. I take it you are not currently seeing any of these women romantically. Did this tactic work to get them off the hook, so to speak? Did you just agree to disagree?

 

When the woman has a male harem, she doesn't need to be sleeping with any of them, but one or more of them should be angling to sleep with her or else she won't have too much interest in the group. I am assuming there is some ulterior motive for a woman to hang out with a group of men, while dismissing the rest of femininity as crazy.  Perhaps some women would rather be viewed as just one of the guys? Do you ever see one straight woman hanging out in a group of gay men? I don't believe I've seen than scenario outside of the general tendency for straight women to frequent gay clubs and bars in an attempt to avoid pick up artists.

[PGP]

I am curious. When the lady is part of the male group, what general issues does she talk about? Does it differ in any significant way to what men in the group talk about and if so, how?

 

One instance sprang to mind for me here. I was "going-out" with a girl in college. She was holding out on sex. She had all kinds of issues that became apparent later on and that I think I would have seen earlier with my current knowledge. She brought a friend from home up and we went out for the night. Her friend was alot less good-looking than her. I completely ignored the girlfriend and focused all of my attention on the less-attractive girl. She laughed alot and was loving the attention. At the end of the night the friend and I were settling down for a couple of night-caps when the "girlfriend" literally had to drag her away up to bed. She was pissed off majorly. Guess what changed immediately after this?

[Kevin Beal]

Instead of admitting the possibility of being mistaken, the group of women you are contradicting takes aim at your sexual ego, knowing that it's the only wire left to cut to defuse the situation, like MacGyver flailing at the last second to disarm a bomb. I take it you are not currently seeing any of these women romantically. Did this tactic work to get them off the hook, so to speak? Did you just agree to disagree?

It has resulted in agreeing to disagree after some flattery before, yes. (I am very susceptible to flattery). The one time where I was told explicitly that my behavior was "seductive", it did not end that way and she told me that she appreciated what I said and she acted on it. This particular woman is someone I trust a great deal, and no it didn't end up in a romantic relationship, unfortunately for me, fortunately for her husband.

 

 

Do you ever see one straight woman hanging out in a group of gay men? I don't believe I've seen than scenario outside of the general tendency for straight women to frequent gay clubs and bars in an attempt to avoid pick up artists.

I knew a straight married woman who loved hanging out with gay men. She made it sound like "of course women would want to do that, gay men are so funny and know how to have a good time". But, I can only think of the one example. I don't know very many gay men, but I was under the impression that they had straight women lining up to be their friends. I could be totally wrong about that.

 

 

I am curious. When the lady is part of the male group, what general issues does she talk about? Does it differ in any significant way to what men in the group talk about and if so, how?

Yea. I think in my experience it's often about the whole judgmental thing, like with the guys she can just let rip on somebody else without fear of being considered too judgmental. On account of how guys tend to more irreverent. Which is interesting to me because I find myself sometimes in the position of encouraging the ladies to speak more freely about things like what and who they hate. Maybe again it's just the people I hang around, but the lady folk seem to act sometimes as if there is an invisible person in the room who will condemn them if they say what they are really thinking (e.x. "oh no, fuck her, she's a bitch"). You get a lot of minimizing and the most favorable phrasings and excuses like "she must really be in a bad place to be yelling at people like that, poor her".

 

 

At the end of the night the friend and I were settling down for a couple of night-caps when the "girlfriend" literally had to drag her away up to bed. She was pissed off majorly. Guess what changed immediately after this?

I honestly don't know. Did she decide to stop waiting to sleep with you?

[PGP]

. You get a lot of minimizing and the most favorable phrasings and excuses like "she must really be in a bad place to be yelling at people like that, poor her".

 

I guess it might be down to the herd mentality and consensus. Being with the men is a bit like the confession box in a social context perhaps. I imagine there must be a build-up of tension in all-female atmospheres. If there is (as you said) less adherence to principles and more to a fluid hierarchy. Having certainty could be difficult whereas they might see hanging out with men as a chance to indulge in the "judgmental" thoughts they have keep hidden. A pressure-relief valve. A bit like elections.

 

 

I honestly don't know. Did she decide to stop waiting to sleep with you?

 

Indeed she did. 

[MMX2010]

One thing I know is that when I'm hanging out with the gals, it's a little harder to get yourself into the conversation since they seem to have fewer and shorter pauses between thoughts.

 

If you're noticing this, then you're Framing these conversations in terms of friendship, agreement, and taking turns.  My two simple rules for interjecting in conversations with female groups are: (1) Nobody cares whether I agree, because agreement is boring.  (2) Always reflect my disagreement with loud, potentially over-the-top emotional laughter. 

 

Whether warm condescension, cold disagreement, or mild disgust, I always have a long loud laugh to express these.  That makes the conversation stop as everyone looks to you.  Then you can argue your point.  (There's a big difference between waiting for the conversation to stop - (submissive) - and making the conversation stop - (dominance).)

 

 

On one occasion, she brought her sister and best friend to the bar lounge, and her older sister showed me some East Coast Swing dancing moves. I asked the older sister out dancing, and she politely declined. When I asked for her reasoning, she indicated that it was out of respect for her sister, and left it at that.

 

Did you neg her for saying this?  Something like, "That's so cute.  I'll bet your sister lays out your clothes before you go to bed at night, and wakes you up the next morning."  (Not saying that you should have, but hat you could have.  Breaking the dominant woman's hold over her submissives is always an option.) 

 

 

Questions for discussion:

1) Have you heard this as a guy, or thought it as a woman?

2) What are some of the differences you've noticed between hanging with the girls vs the guys?

3) Why do you think women often prefer hanging out with the fellas, and why do you think the women sometimes find other women to be "crazy"?

4) Do you prefer the company of men over women? Why, why not?

 

The fourth question is most important, and reminds me of "Do you prefer coffee or scotch?"  Turns out that's a very complicated question, because it depends on time of day and what mood I wish to create.

 

Generally speaking, I prefer the company of men, because they're smarter and more direct.  As I bask longer and longer in the company of men, I begin to see women solely in terms of prettiness and happiness.  So I only prefer the company of women when I'm tired / bored of thinking about something deep, (or just want to let those ideas simmer in my head for a while).  Then I just want to hang out with women, say ridiculous things in response to the more ridiculous things they say, and just make them make intense facial expressions - (whether anger or happiness, doesn't matter). 

 

 

She was pissed off majorly. Guess what changed immediately after this?

 

Chateau Heartiste, respected and controversial Manosphere writer, on "Dread".

 

Dread

March 27, 2008 by CH

 

There are two ways to guarantee a healthy relationship. By healthy, I mean the girl is in love with you and there is no threat of her leaving; you have all the leverage you need to assure yourself peace of mind and a steady sexual outlet.

• Meet your soulmate

If you are extremely lucky enough to cross paths with your soulmate this is the easiest way to live the kind of romantic bliss that Hollywood movies exalt. A soulmate connection is the Golden Ticket to happiness and a dreamlike existence. But it is rare. Don’t live as if it will happen to you. I estimate 1% of all men and 2% of all women meet their soulmates. The reason for the discrepancy is that male soulmates are in shorter supply than female soulmates. Male soulmates are shared amongst the women like a community hookah.

• Instill dread

Women respond viscerally in their vagina area to unpredictability, mixed signals, danger, and drama in spite of their best efforts to convince themselves otherwise. Managing your relationship in such a way that she is left with a constant, gnawing feeling of impending doom will do more for your cause than all the Valentine’s Day cards and expertly performed tongue love in the world.

 

Like it or not, the threat of a looming breakup, whether the facts justify it or not, will spin her into a paranoid estrogen-fueled tizzy, and she’ll spend every waking second thinking about you, thinking about the relationship, thinking about how to fix it. Her love for you will blossom under these conditions. Result: she works harder to please you.

 

The key for the man is to adopt a posture of blase emotional distance alternated with loving tenderness. Too much of either and she’ll run off.

 

Examples of effective doom inducement:

Turn off your cell phone twice a week. Alternate days. Don’t do this on a Friday or Saturday night unless the relationship is shaky and needs a high voltage jolt of dread.

 

Make a blatant but plausibly deniable move on one of her friends when she’s not around. The news will get back to her. Milk it.

 

Call her from a very busy place so that she can hear women’s voices laughing and shrieking in the background. Don’t tell her where you are when she asks. Just say you’ll see her soon.

 

Mention how skilled your Russian ex was at giving head. Bring it up again a few days later, pretending not to remember the first time you mentioned it. Bonus: Russians are very good at giving head, so this will have the ring of truth.

 

Be seen by your girlfriend flirting with other women in a social venue. Extra points if the women are attractive. Double extra points if you flirt without looking back at your girlfriend once to check her reaction.

 

Cook her a romantic candlelight dinner at home. Make it a memorable experience, complete with jazz, chocolate, and rose petals. Then, do not talk with her for four days afterwards.

 

Ignore her calls for a week. When you eventually answer and she reads you the riot act, act as if nothing was wrong and accuse her of sabotaging a perfectly good relationship, “just like all the other women in this stupid city. I thought you were different”. Hang up on her angrily.

 

When her best friend tells you how cute you and your girlfriend look together, shrug, put your hand to the back of your neck as if to scratch an itch there, look down slightly and with a mildly annoyed expression blandly sigh “Yeeeeah…”. Triple bonus points if your girlfriend is standing right there.

 

When she attempts the jealousy maneuver by flirting with another guy, act unfazed. Give her pickup tips.

 

Gaze longingly into her eyes, say how hot she looks, then immediately glance sidelong at the bosom of any strange woman in the vicinity.

 

Have a threesome. Spend an inordinate amount of time admiring the labia of the other woman. Be sure to moan louder with her. WARNING: If you cum on the other woman you will have to spend weeks consoling your girlfriend.

 

Say things like “I really value my independence and freedom” relevant to nothing in particular. It’s just a thought that popped in your head.

 

 

Thermonuclear Option:

 

Have an affair and make sure she finds out about it. Arrange the confrontation so that it does not happen at your place. When she confronts you, don’t get defensive. Don’t speak at all. Let her vent. Let her punch you in the chest and scream obscenities. When she takes a breather, tell her she’s never looked more beautiful and you will never stop loving her. Then without waiting for her response calmly walk out the door and break off all contact for two weeks. When she comes back to you… and she will… you will have a love slave for life.

[J. D. Stembal]

I am curious. When the lady is part of the male group, what general issues does she talk about? Does it differ in any significant way to what men in the group talk about and if so, how?

 

One instance sprang to mind for me here. I was "going-out" with a girl in college. She was holding out on sex. She had all kinds of issues that became apparent later on and that I think I would have seen earlier with my current knowledge. She brought a friend from home up and we went out for the night. Her friend was alot less good-looking than her. I completely ignored the girlfriend and focused all of my attention on the less-attractive girl. She laughed alot and was loving the attention. At the end of the night the friend and I were settling down for a couple of night-caps when the "girlfriend" literally had to drag her away up to bed. She was pissed off majorly. Guess what changed immediately after this?

 

Hen-pecked!

 

If we could ever characterize dating and sex as a free market, cock-blocking would be analogous to government regulation.

 

It has resulted in agreeing to disagree after some flattery before, yes. (I am very susceptible to flattery). The one time where I was told explicitly that my behavior was "seductive", it did not end that way and she told me that she appreciated what I said and she acted on it. This particular woman is someone I trust a great deal, and no it didn't end up in a romantic relationship, unfortunately for me, fortunately for her husband.

 

Thanks for answering regarding the more personal details, Kevin.

 

I wanted to tease out the details of the conversation a little more, and you provided it. Like you, I am intensely vulnerable to flattery. I am currently wondering how often this has been used against me in the past. When you described the seemingly natural reaction a couple of women had to you trying to disagree with them, it made me wonder if this is a common tactic women use to defuse disagreements with men. ("If I can encourage him to think about sex, his brain might temporarily shut down.")

 

I'm also considering if I've ever seen two women calmly disagree while in mixed company. The Onion article suggests that this does not usually happen. Perhaps women have to conceal their true thoughts and feelings around other women because of what mothers do to their daughters when suppressing their true identity.

 

Ladies, come on over and join the thread. So far, it's just a pistol party.

[PGP]

 

Ignore her calls for a week.

It was interesting that you mention this. After being with her for a few months I had exams and then work placement. I just presumed it was over as I was moving across country to work and would be flat out, so I jacked without a word. Didn't text, didn't call, nothing for a few months. I came back to the house after the work experience to see a mate who lived there with her still (they had normal college semesters) and she was angry with me. At the time I couldn't figure out why, but we ended up in the sack anyway. It was bizarre. I am certainly not proud of this period of my life and if it was now I would do things a whole lot differently. 

[J. D. Stembal]

I'm not feeling very enthusiastic over CH's relationship advice, MMX.

 

It sounds like the precise opposite of RTR. The male "game" is taking the valid emotional reaction to a woman, suppressing it, then turning the chessboard around after making a completely ludicrous move, and expecting the other player to not scratch her head for a while, or concede the game. I would rather beat my own meat for the rest of my life than have to engage in these kinds of tactics.

 

I would be interested in discussing why the dread emotional distancing tactics work with a large portion of women. If they didn't work on a consistent basis, why would anyone man act in this manner?

[MMX2010]

I'm not feeling very enthusiastic over CH's relationship advice, MMX.

 

It sounds like the precise opposite of RTR. The male "game" is taking the valid emotional reaction to a woman, suppressing it, then turning the chessboard around after making a completely ludicrous move, and expecting the other player to not scratch her head for a while, or concede the game. I would rather beat my own meat for the rest of my life than have to engage in these kinds of tactics.

 

That depends on what you mean by a "valid" emotional reaction.  If a person has a very consistent moral framework and is always spontaneous and non-calculating in their emotions, then I would call their emotional reactions valid.  However, if a person lives by two completely opposite moral frameworks, then it doesn't matter whether they claim their emotions are valid. 

 

Women live by two opposite moral frameworks: (1) Have short term affairs with sexy (and often violent) men, suspiciously while they're ovulating.  (2) Seek long term stable relationships with unsexy, non-violent men, suspiciously when their ability to attract sexy men diminishes.  So, in my opinion, women lose the right to complain about most male behavior - with the obvious exception being male violence. 

 

 

 

I would be interested in discussing why the dread emotional distancing tactics work with a large portion of women. If they didn't work on a consistent basis, why would anyone man act in this manner?

 

Heartiste and I agree on these points: (1) There are two reasons that women have sex: to keep you around OR to reward you for behaving in a certain way.  (2) In the beginnings of a relationship, when a woman is unsure of your commitment level to her, she'll have sex for the first reason.  But when she feels secure in your commitment, she'll only have sex for the second reason.  (In clichéd terms, this is called, "Women withhold sex in committed relationships, in order to make you behave in her best interest.)  (3) Dread Games work because they stimulate female insecurity, which causes her to have the first kind of sex with you.  (4) It doesn't really "count" when a woman matures and becomes immune to Dread Games at age 33 or older, but it's impressive when a woman matures and becomes immune to Dread Games at 23 or younger. 

 

Heartiste and I disagree on the following: (1) He insists that it's fundamentally impossible (or damn near unlikely) for women to change this aspect about themselves, because women are trying to reverse a deep biological instinct in a culture that protects them from the negative consequences of following that instinct.  (2) I insist that it's quite easy for women to change this aspect of themselves, but this requires them to face the world alone, without either male protection or societal protection.  So I don't expect many women to change this way. 

[hannahbanana]

 

Questions for discussion:

1) Have you heard this as a guy, or thought it as a woman?

2) What are some of the differences you've noticed between hanging with the girls vs the guys?

3) Why do you think women often prefer hanging out with the fellas, and why do you think the women sometimes find other women to be "crazy"?

4) Do you prefer the company of men over women? Why, why not?

1.

I personally feel this way. I have more friends who are men than I do who are women. Perhaps I am getting more girl friends than I had before, but this has been how I have felt since pre-school (which makes me question that it is purely of sexual nature).

2.

Most of the time, I hang out with a mixture of girls and guys, so I don't know if I can say much about this, besides what I mention in the other points.

3.

For me, I feel that I can be much more comfortable and open around men. When I speak to women, I feel more cautious, as if saying something wrong will lead me to be judged. There are certain mannerisms or topics that are just not comfortable to discuss. You often need to have a condescending or sassy attitude about basically everything to continue a conversation. I notice that men are often less inhibited in conversation, so I feel like I am also able to say what I want to say, even if it's something "unladylike." True, I may feel more comfortable about this when I am openly in a relationship, which acts as a sort of "safety net" so I know I don't need to worry so much about romantic advances. Maybe it doesn't really hold that much weight, maybe it does, I'd be interested in any feedback. But from experience, I haven't had too many issues with that, and it never seemed to get in the way of friendships.

I think the whole "crazy" bit comes from actual encounters with crazy girls, which ruins it...and once I had a few really good guy friends, I didn't really have much desire to go back to that. And by crazy, I mean the backstabbers, manipulative people...I'm sure that there are some guys like that, but the passive aggression tactics that are attributed to "crazy" are more often associated with women. It can get pretty sickening, to the point where you just don't want to have anything to do it, and that usually means leaving behind most girl friends altogether, since the crazy ones are usually the popular ones and are friends with most of the other girls you might associate with. Again, not sure if this is for everyone, but that was my experience all throughout elementary school mostly. My decision about who my friends would be was basically decided by then.

4.

I prefer the company of men or boy-ish women, for the reasons I described above, but also just because we simply have more similar interests. I don't really like too many of the typically "girly" things, and am actually bored to death by them most of the time. So why would I want to hang out with people who are interested in things that bore me, when there are so many other people, often men, who like things that are actually interesting to me?

 

I know the post is long, and a bit rambling, but I hope something can be taken out of it. Cheers

[PatrickC]

I must admit to have always been suspicious of women that claimed to prefer the company of men. I mean what woman wouldn't prefer being around a bunch of resourceful guys potentially getting resources from them. Finally to bag the most resourceful guy in the bunch. From a biological perspective it makes complete sense. As was my suspicion of them.

 

Some observations and anecdotes I have found about flattery and perhaps this is an age and experience thing. But I find I can now distinguish between seductive flattery and genuine compliments. For instance, being complimented on my physical appearance by a woman I barely know or someone that knows other things about me, but chooses that kind of compliment (as her first one) is definitely a sign of seduction. She may not want to follow through with sex on it, but she is attempting to seduce me. Her reasons might be varied of course, ranging from resources, status to boyfriend/husband potential.

 

A woman that compliments me on something they know about me regarding my advice, work or abilities is far more genuine. It may well amount to the same interest she may have in me. The difference being that my reaction doesn't occur in my groin. I feel appreciated for something I've genuinely worked for. It allows for a more appropriate and reciprocal relationship to flourish between us. By definition this is not flattery of course. When a women flatters a man, his reaction nearly always involuntarily heads for his groin. I'm guessing the same is true of women, except men that flatter need to have some kind of status for it to be effective. That and women that are easily flattered by such men.

 

I think this is why men are susceptible to female flattery. It engages directly with our lizard brains, that sees an opportunity to procreate with a fertile woman. 

[Psychophant]

Hard to say, because the vibes are important. If I sense that the person gives me a good gut feeling and is at least interesting, I can  endure its presence for a long time. I disassemble what has been said rationally while being all touchy feely. Feelings aren't less important than reason but you cannot feel da truth, yo.

[Kevin Beal]

I think this is why men are susceptible to female flattery. It engages directly with our lizard brains, that sees an opportunity to procreate with a fertile woman. 

I think also because guys tend to get many fewer compliments than women do, so the impact they have is stronger. The logic being something like "oh, I actually got complimented! That almost never happens. They must really mean it" and it can either feel special or else feel really awkward, not knowing what to do with it, whether to trust it, etc.

 

Or maybe you get a lot more compliments than I do. In which case I'm very jealous. It's the accent, I know it!

 

 

For me, I feel that I can be much more comfortable and open around men. When I speak to women, I feel more cautious, as if saying something wrong will lead me to be judged. There are certain mannerisms or topics that are just not comfortable to discuss. You often need to have a condescending or sassy attitude about basically everything to continue a conversation. I notice that men are often less inhibited in conversation, so I feel like I am also able to say what I want to say, even if it's something "unladylike." True, I may feel more comfortable about this when I am openly in a relationship, which acts as a sort of "safety net" so I know I don't need to worry so much about romantic advances. Maybe it doesn't really hold that much weight, maybe it does, I'd be interested in any feedback. But from experience, I haven't had too many issues with that, and it never seemed to get in the way of friendships.

Right, right. That's similar to what I've heard from other women.

 

I think it's a rare guy who will really try romantic advances with a women who's in a relationship. At most it will be light flirting without any expectation of it leading anywhere. Maybe even especially light flirting since flirting is kinda fun, and with a women who's already taken, it's kind of a safe thing to do since you aren't concerned with rejection. But I think most guys, like me, may be attracted to women who are already in a relationship, but won't make any actual moves on her. Wouldn't even think of it. There are some exceptions I've known, but they are pretty transparent (at least to other men) and come off as super annoying doofuses. Or they are friendzoned men who were given mixed signals, and are desperate to be with her.

 

And I didn't mind the rambling at all. I'd love to hear anything more you have to say about this topic. It's of much interest to me to get a female perspective on it

[shirgall]

I think it's a rare guy who will really try romantic advances with a women who's in a relationship.

 

What's funny is that I never got nearly as much female attention as when I do whilst in a relationship.

[PatrickC]

I think also because guys tend to get many fewer compliments than women do, so the impact they have is stronger. The logic being something like "oh, I actually got complimented! That almost never happens. They must really mean it" and it can either feel special or else feel really awkward, not knowing what to do with it, whether to trust it, etc.

 

Well that's the source of the awkwardness of course. Particularly when you are a younger man who may have experienced less female flattery. Other than a polite thank you, there isn't much more you can say about a compliment on appearance. If I may put it crudely, it's a call for penis standing to attention. Which might not feel appropriate for you or even unwanted. And importantly it's still no guarantee of penis attention on her part. She can always claim plausible deniability at this point. That said, I've certainly developed ways to avoid that awkwardness by now. But I clearly remember those first experience of female flattery. Sometimes even being laughed at because I flushed red as I was lost for words.

 

Whereas if you're complimented on a pursuit you were engaged in. Or she asked you how you felt after a performance you gave. Those are compliments you can engage with. I think I may have repeated myself, hopefully to useful effect.

 

Or maybe you get a lot more compliments than I do. In which case I'm very jealous. It's the accent, I know it!

 

Believe me, once you start hitting your early to mid 30's and you've managed to keep yourself in good shape, standing and fruitful employment, female flattery will become far more prevalent.

[kahvi]

There are too many insightful statements here to quote any individual ones, but I thought I'd add my two-cents.

 

I only recently have begun to consider this question in depth and mainly because of a recent night out with two of my girlfriends, although it would be more appropriate to say "girlfriend", as in the singular form. There exists a ridiculous amount of politics involved in most female relationships. Typically, we will remain on good terms with women we do not particularly like in order to maintain group cohesion. In my case, I act like I enjoy both of their companies, when really I can barely tolerate one of them (I'll call her Suzy), and like someone already mentioned, I complain to my husband about Suzy when I get home. I realize this is absolutely crazy and would like to change it, but have no idea how to.

 

It's particularly aggravating to me because Suzy stated, in a joking matter, how she had to spank her 3 year-old daughter because she had almost scratched her car with a rock. I'm deeply ashamed that I didn't open my mouth, but we were having a nice dinner and enjoying ourselves. I would have been the bitch who dared to question my friend's parenting skills. This wasn't an isolated incident, either. Suzy had once told me that she had flicked her nursing infant's cheek when she bit her nipple.

 

Additionally, the conversation was dominated by Suzy and consisted mainly of husband bashing (Not on my part). Most of her complaints surrounded the traits she knew her husband had before they even married!

 

Look at me! I'm complaining to you guys about it!

 

I later brought the spanking issue up with the one I like and she said she has had to do it a couple times with her children, too. Now I feel like I'm at a crossroads. Instead of being brave enough to challenge them both on this issue, I'd almost rather leave the relationship(s).

 

I remarked to my husband that I prefer his company because I feel comfortable speaking my mind. I'm not sure where this comes from. Either it's an evolutionary trait (Women had to get along while their men went off to hunt) or it's learned (My mom didn't tolerate me talking back to her.) It's probably a combination of the two.

 

I would like to learn to be more assertive, and I think visiting this forum and listening to more of Stefan's shows will help.

[PatrickC]

Look at me! I'm complaining to you guys about it!

 

I'm glad you said that, as I was about to choke on my waffle!

[Pepin]

In my experience, it depends a lot on the group. Male groups can be very annoying when there is someone trying to be an alpha male. This usually happens when you just kind of meet up with people you don't know too well, and the "alpha" will try to show dominance over you through sophistry and purposely speaking over you. Worse, if there is a female in your group too, the "alpha" will attempt to structure the conversation like he is the only one of value, and will take any chance to denigrate other males in the group.

 

But if it is a group of friends, there tends to be some sort of non-conflicting energy, like nobody really cares that much, and the atmosphere is more chill. Nobody really cares if you say something dumb, and you can really relax. Males tend to talk about intellectual matters more, and debates are often very fun. There isn't quite the judgement of character when talking about beliefs and ideas as there is with females.

 

With mostly female groups, there tends to be more tension. Even if the experience is going well, there is that nagging thought that if someone says just one stupid thing, that the cohesion will dissolve. There are often very small scale wars being fought.

 

What I like about females is that they seem to have more physical energy and are less prone to just sitting and chatting. There is also a pretty natural feelings to conversations. Having what you said being ignored is also less common. They are often more interesting in many respects, which is not to say that they are always sane, but they will almost always have complex reasoning behind their beliefs and ideas. Most males tend to have very little thought and reasoning behind their beliefs and ideas, which isn't to say that they are wrong, but I usually wish there was more substance.

 

It is hard for me to say which I prefer. Males tend to prefer more philosophical conversation, while females seem to like relationship talk more. I haven't really been able to talk about any hardcore philosophy with a female yet because they show uninterest, while males really seem to find that to be very interesting. I don't mind conversations about emotions and relationships, but they are far too draining on me, and there never really seems to be a point. It just seems like they want to voice an opinion and get confirmation as opposed to other people's thoughts.

 

I don't think generalizing the above is too accurate, but I've asked a lot of people about if they perceive the same thing, and they do. There is likely some truth in cliche, though more often than not, there are mold breakers.