Is Kendo Compatible with PP?

[KiriKaeshi]

Hey there.  I am a longtime practitioner of Kendo, a form of fencing from Japan.  I have an 18 month old son, and he will no doubt be exposed to this martial art.  Like European fencing, Kendo is largely a competitive and formative activity - ie there is very little self-defence focus or value.  Having said that, any combat activity gives combat training (and we all do loove our combat, don't we?), and the discipline does place a stress on the conceptualization of "Killing" the opponent with relentless attacks, both physical and mental.  Each match is treated as a life-and-death duel with real swords (we wear armour and use lightweight bamboo swords, so personal injury is not at all an expected or necessary part of Kendo).  What do people think could be the parenting ramifications of exposing my child to this type of martial art?  Is it compatible with peaceful parenting?

[Mister Mister]

  Of course Kendo, Boxing, or any other kind of combat sport is not a violation of NAP as long as it is voluntary.  And I am sure there are things to learn from it.  But I might ask why Kendo rather than another sport or physical activity that doesn't involve physically harming an opponent, and possibly being harmed?  Your kid is likely to be interested in Kendo because you are, which is fine.  But my approach would be to expose them to a variety of activities and see what they take to the most.  Be curious.  It might be dance, team sports, running, hiking, swimming, etc.  But personally I would be very tentative about my kid participating in a violent sport like football, hockey, boxing, or kendo at a young age.

Also, my understanding is that there are really two aspects to most martial arts.  One is the training and "philosophy", the other is the competitive aspect.  While there might be some value in the training, I am not sure that engaging in competitions involving physical combat is the healthiest exercise.  What is your interest in it?  Is there any history of violence in your life?
 

  So it's not an ethical issue, more of an aesthetic one as I see it.

Stef addressed this issue some years ago and stirred up a lot of opposition about it, haha no surprise.  His theory is that a serious and dedicated interest in martial arts is a symptom of continuously trying to relive and master a violent situation.

[Lars]

Oh man, the martial arts kerfuffle... fond memories? (Many listeners short-circuit when it comes to this topic)

To summarize the position Stef put forward:
There's nothing evil about the pursuit of these disciplines, but it's important to prioritize self-knowledge before making any big commitments against imagined or subconsciously provoked threats. At any rate, martial arts will not help you against the thugs of the state.

Also, the Eastern Philosophy aspect of some martial arts range from inconsequential to harmfully fallacious.

Still drawn to consensual violent recreation? Great, go become a master, we won't stop you.
...just don't pretend it's anything other than violent recreation.

[Zelenn]

I train in Aikido and while I agree with many things Stef puts out, I have my differences when it comes to his thoughts on martial arts.

[yagami]

I dont think exposing your children to violence is necessarily a bad thing. It really depends on how the violence is used. If the child understand that two people agree punch each other in the face until one is knocked out then you have established the violence is voluntary. If you expose children to unwanted violence that I think is wrong. Now a child raised peacefully might not like violent sports because of the nature of peacefully raised kids. But I dont think it's a bad idea on it's face.

[KiriKaeshi]

Thanks for the feedback everybody.  Lots to think about.  Rose you make excellent points.  Both my wife and I are Canadian, with some hockey background in our upbringing.  Hockey is one of the most violent sports out there today, to be sure, and the issue of exposing children to competitive violence is just the kind of pickle that led me to seek advice on the subject.  I also agree with you that it seems to be more of an aesthetic question.  I honestly hadnt thought about it like that.

  My wife and I do plan to expose our son to a wide variety of activities.  Of course it is up to him to decide if he likes them, but I'm just beiong realistic in expecting that at some point he's going to be interested in what his Dad is doing.

   On the subject of whether combat is an unhealthy subject of study, I'd have to say that I agree with Yagami in that there is nothing necessarily wrong about combat or the study of combat.  And I really don't think that there is anything wrong with competition.

    Please let me know if this sounds invalid, but to me, violence is not about the activities involved per se, but the fact that they represent violations.  I have a feeling that Stef would slam me for suggesting that consensual violence is not violence, however.  On a slightly different tack, I would ask, "can violence be harmonious?  Or, "is violence synonymous with disharmony?"  In Kendo (as in Aikido - Zelenn I'm sure you know!!), harmony between combatants is essential.  Without this harmony, it's just two people whacking each other.  I once saw a match at a tournament where one of the players got angry and swung in frustration.  It didnt connect, but most of the spectators in the large gym gasped alltogether, and the fight was immediateley stopped and the aggressor disqualified.  To me, that was an illustration that anger and disharmony stand out like sore thumbs in honest martial arts, and have absolutely no place in them.  Am I wrong?  Was it more of an illustration of some kind of unproductive groupthink behaviour?  Someone please set me right on this if they disagree.  I'd love an exploration of this, although it sounds to me like the time for the martial arts discussion may have passed...

 Lars, thats a very interesting idea of stef's that u mention.  What podcast was it?  I'd like to give it a listen.  I won't deny that adversarial combat sounds like a problematic method for self-knowledge, and it is true that this is a common intention in martial arts in general, and Kendo in particular.

[GasCap]

This thread would be helpful for me... since I have been thinking to expose my child to Martial Arts... I always thought that we need to be able and capable of protecting our selves (self defense) and this is the justification for violence when we are in a position where that is the only option, given all other options are exhausted ie. getting out of the situation... are there any flaws to my thinking?... any opinions will be highly appreciated..

[Daniel Unplugged]

I'll keep this one short.

 

Nothing wrong with it. It's only a game.

[Zelenn]

I think there are many thing to be learned from martial arts. Of course, I think of martial arts as a much broader field of study than simply "how to hit a guy."

 

Martial arts to me is "The Study of Conflict."

 

Its a MASSIVE area of study. It involves not only the technical aspects of physical conflict, but moral, and situational aspects. It involves not only physical conflict, but economic conflict, social conflict, political conflict. Its about debate and logical fallacies, as much as using your hips to throw a guy.

 

Martial arts tend to be overtly philosophical as well. Aikido is especially. One of our footwork patterns is a simple forward stepping movement called Irimi, which tends to be translated as, "Enter without fear." We have a training exercise called Tai No Henko, the entire purpose of which is to "gain your enemy's perspective."

I''ll leave you to extract what value you will from that.

 

Studying martial arts is studying conflict, not just the situational conflict itself, but also how conflict arises and what is the best way to deal with conflict when it arises.

 

Trolls on the internet will often say, "martial art X sucks! After all what would (Karate, Aikido, Tai Chi etc) do if a guy swung at you in a bar? Huh?"

 

The study of conflict would want to know:

 

A: Why were you in this bar?

B: What did you do to garner this guy's attention?

C: Do you have to fight or can you walk away?

D: If you must fight, must you use lethal force or is it enough to neutralize him?

E: Have you trained yourself to the point where you can neutralize him without causing serious injury or are you so barely skilled as to actually be dangerous? (and not in a good way.)

F: Where are you emotionally? Do you want to hurt him? Do you look to violence and a chance to be Billy Badass like a hungry dog looks to meat?

 

In short, what you will find in martial arts depends on your reason for training. Aikido has made me a much calmer person. It is not a substitue for philosophy and self knowledge, but it may be a worth while adjunct.

[Carl Green]

When you do a cost benefit analysis of how much time it takes to participate in the activity relative to what you gain from that activity, what do you get?

 

An example would be an analysis of the years spent training to learn martial arts for self defense in relation to the likelihood of having to use it. Is it worth it to you to spend all that time mastering these things to save yourself?

 

When I do this analysis myself, it's not worth it to me to spend all that time working on mastering being able to defend myself in case I end up in the situation of needing it. Years of my life spent training are not worth me being able to keep my wallet from some mugger. That's a very limited example and I understand martial arts really could potentially save my life or the life of a loved one, but as I see the odds, it's not worth it for me, especially if I can carry around a gun.

[williamsjar]

I don't practice any martial arts currently, but see this question as pretty easy to generalize: Should I put my kid in competitive situations against other kids? Whether it's soccer or karate, the differences seem pretty superficial to me. I think there are lessons to be learned from any physical discipline that go beyond keeping someone from stealing your wallet. I swam, played baseball, wrestled, basketball, and even ran cross country for a year and I feel that each experience was important in developing self-knowledge -- what I like and don't like, where I am strong and weak, what boundaries are important to explore. 

 

As long as it's voluntary and good sportsmanship is observed, I think sports like wrestling are among the most beneficial for young men.