Child Abuse at Work--and Lying to Abusers

[MysterionMuffles]

At the beginning of my shift at work this morning, there was a toddler playing with the mirror of the backroom door. I just said "excuse me," playfully, and all of a sudden her mother yanks her off the door saying, "I've had enough with you!" I walk in to go and look for something for a customer, and when I come out, that same mother is blocking my only way back to the counter and while I stand there and wait, she says "I'm sorry," sweetly to me, but then goes to start pointing fingers at her toddler struggling to get out of the stroler her mother is cramming in, and continues to nag at her.

 

Me: "You better be sorry because you shouldn't be so rough with her."

 

Her: "Yeah well I'm really tired, and we've been shopping for hours."

 

Me: "I totally get that and understand, but treating her this way is only gonna frustrate her further, making things that much harder for you."

 

Her: "Do you want to pick her up and carry her for the rest of the day?"

 

I don't know what to say and just shoot a quizzical look at her. Then she gives the typical abuser question to me: "do you have your own kids?"

 

And this is where I feel a bit jaded about. I know if I said no, she would be like, "then wait til you have your own kids."

 

So I decided to lie and say, "yes I do." I'm not proud of this, but at this point I wanted to get expiramenta and see what would happen.

 

And she retorts: "then you worry about your own kids and I'll worry about mine."

 

To which I just had enough of it, exchange a quick glance with her son who I hope took something from watching that interaction. But I'll never know. My regret is not staying in there longer to talk to the kids and empathize with them and saying anything further...

 

I walk through and on my way back to the cash register, another woman stops me and says, "I agree with you," with a lot of concern painted over her face. I tell her thanks and then get back to work, feeling shaken up and barely able to speak to the next customer coherently.

 

This was my first child abuse intervention outside of my family and it was scary...does anyone have any feedback on how I handled that? I think I could have done waaaay better than that...

[maieesa]

Lying to jerks,like her, is fine with my.. especially to help a child. Take it from Isabella, "mean to the mean and nice to the nice."

You have already had a critical look at your own handling of the situation...and I think that what you said there is insightful as well.

Speaking to the child some.. It is difficult to know if she would have heard you at all, had you offered her any kind of deeper insight, research based evidence or anything...It doesn't sound like it, after her last remark was completely dismissive.

Big Love RJ

[shirgall]

I think you exposed the truth, that you will be wrong (to her) if you are a parent or if you are not, so it does not matter how you answered the question.

[J. D. Stembal]

You can't counter the "Do you have kids?" retort with any conventional answer. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. You handled the situation well. I had an opportunity to confront someone like this in public and I backed down. A braver man than I intervened in a matter of minutes and the exchange almost escalated into a fist fight. I'm not sure if I could have handled it any better. I probably sensed the impending violence, and shut my own mouth down before I could speak.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

What's that line from V For Vendetta?

 

"Politicians use the truth to tell lies. Writers use lies to tell the truth."

 

Don't really see how it's different in this case.

[Zelenn]

... I'd lie. Because theres not a chance that they'll listen to you otherwise. If you lie, you might get the abusing parent's attention long enough to put forward a suggestion that sparks their curiosity and then you can have that conversation.

 

It's a long shot and probably still is very unlikely, but the conversation won't happen at all if you say, "No, I don't have kids. I just have a lot of thoughts on the matter."

 

Having kids is to a peaceful parenting conversation as having a college degree is to a job. Its a "credential." It allows you to get your foot in the door. Otherwise, your resume goes in the trash, no matter how good you really are.

 

Sad, but has been my experience.

[Three]

That's fantastic, Marlon. The fact that you had the courage to do that at work is also really impressive. 

My gut says that you handled it as well as you could. I also don't see the problem in lying to the abuser.

[Kaki]

(...) pointing fingers at her toddler struggling to get out of the stroler her mother is cramming in, and continues to nag at her. (...)

 

Her: "Yeah well I'm really tired, and we've been shopping for hours."(...)

 

It always baffles me that people can say that with a straight face. She herself is tired after hours of shopping which she takes as an excuse for her behavior.

At the same time the little one has been through the same ordeal but without any control over it and probably the whole time bored out of his mind. And she doesn't even try seeing this. How incredibly self-involved!

 

Good job R.J.!

[MysterionMuffles]

Thanks for the kind words you guys...

 

Honestly, is there a handbook for abusive parents that give them all these generic defensive responses? 

 

... I'd lie. Because theres not a chance that they'll listen to you otherwise. If you lie, you might get the abusing parent's attention long enough to put forward a suggestion that sparks their curiosity and then you can have that conversation.

It's a long shot and probably still is very unlikely, but the conversation won't happen at all if you say, "No, I don't have kids. I just have a lot of thoughts on the matter."

Having kids is to a peaceful parenting conversation as having a college degree is to a job. Its a "credential." It allows you to get your foot in the door. Otherwise, your resume goes in the trash, no matter how good you really are.

Sad, but has been my experience.

 

That's a very good way of putting it. My actual credibility in the field would be my babysitting experience with my neice. I don't know if there'll be a next time--but I work at the mall, which is the cespool of crappy parents--so maybe I could mention that? I'm ready to hear "oh but 2 years of BABYSITTING is NOTHING compared to having your own kids--"

 

To which I'd say something like "would you let your spouse treat you this way?" 

 

I don't want to have a canned response...and frankly, at the heat of those kinds of moments, I can't even conjure up a canned response anyway.

 

I kind of wish I spoke a little more to the woman who said agreed with me, maybe she could have helped me? I will safely assume that she has her own kids that she's treated far better than the aggressive woman. She looked about the age to have adult children who are probably well adjusted.

[J. D. Stembal]

Thanks for the kind words you guys...

 

Honestly, is there a handbook for abusive parents that give them all these generic defensive responses? 

 

 

That's a very good way of putting it. My actual credibility in the field would be my babysitting experience with my neice. I don't know if there'll be a next time--but I work at the mall, which is the cespool of crappy parents--so maybe I could mention that? I'm ready to hear "oh but 2 years of BABYSITTING is NOTHING compared to having your own kids--"

 

To which I'd say something like "would you let your spouse treat you this way?" 

 

I don't want to have a canned response...and frankly, at the heat of those kinds of moments, I can't even conjure up a canned response anyway.

 

I kind of wish I spoke a little more to the woman who said agreed with me, maybe she could have helped me? I will safely assume that she has her own kids that she's treated far better than the aggressive woman. She looked about the age to have adult children who are probably well adjusted.

 

Zelenn likened parenthood as a credential akin to having an advanced degree. Jamz, you mentioned credibility in the field of babysitting. I don't know of any children that get to interview their future parents for the role of mother and father, much less the rest of the extended family. There is no license or required training in order to become a parent. As I already mentioned, "Do you have children?" is a tactic in order to throw you off her scent.

 

Would using RTR be helpful in a scenario like this? "I'm not trying to lay the blame on you for my feelings, but when you yelled at your daughter, it made me feel upset and anxious." It is likely that someone else has spoken up to her abuse before and you got to hear her canned response. If you start the interaction off on a different foot, perhaps she'll be pushed off balance by your approach.

[shirgall]

I wonder if the right answer to the "Do you have kids?" question is, "It doesn't matter, I was a kid once and I know what haunts me all my life and what doesn't."

[Kaki]

I have been wondering a lot about the  "Do you have kids?" question as well. The only thing I came up so far is: "I don't have to be a dog-owner to know that mistreating a dog is bad."

[MysterionMuffles]

Yeah that's an answer I've conjured just a few days before a call in show where Stef said something similar. I've always wanted to say "I was just a kid only 9 years ago and I know exactly how I would want to be treated if I misbehave or make a mistake. This is not how it would be."

[Zerubbabel]

 "mean to the mean and nice to the nice."

 

Children can be mean.  So .... what? Be mean to them?

 

In my experiences this is how it works: Two individuals conflict. If one can convince the circle of acquaintances that the other is an asshole then being mean to the asshole is morally justified by the circle. Often the circle will even step-in to assist in being mean to the luckless soul who has been labeled "asshole." (Such machinations are the cornerstone of the State's power.) 

 

The escape from such expressions of assholishness thinly veiled as righteous indignation, is to never forget that we ALL have a little asshole inside of us trying to get out. 

.

[McBeer]

I would make it personal and honest.

I would say "My mom treated me that way, and now I won't even answer her phone calls."

That should get her thinking about how she interacts with her children.

 

I think we need to be more open about the idea of voluntary relationships.

If she think her children will always be there for her no matter what, then it will not matter to her what she does to them.

[maieesa]

Children can be mean.  So .... what? Be mean to them?

 

In my experiences this is how it works: Two individuals conflict. If one can convince the circle of acquaintances that the other is an asshole then being mean to the asshole is morally justified by the circle. Often the circle will even step-in to assist in being mean to the luckless soul who has been labeled "asshole." (Such machinations are the cornerstone of the State's power.) 

 

The escape from such expressions of assholishness thinly veiled as righteous indignation, is to never forget that we ALL have a little asshole inside of us trying to get out. 

.

My asshole isn't buried and neither is my cunt; I am present to my lowest self. Do you really think that the above has anything to do with being mean to children?  Do you see how the context of this thread makes that an absurd response?  Children who are mean, are almost always reflecting. This thread has nothing to do with gossip or ostracizing "one" from a circle of acquaintances, or righteous indignation. Were my "acquaintances" so easily convinced of my assholiness as to ostracize me, it would be a great blessing to see sooner than later, that they do not think for themselves.  I would not consider myself a luckless person...nor a soul at all.  The way to not be the kind of asshole who is cruel to children, is to always remember that we have a needy little child inside of us, yearning to be nurtured, and protected, acknowledged, seen and heard.

I would make it personal and honest.

I would say "My mom treated me that way, and now I won't even answer her phone calls."

That should get her thinking about how she interacts with her children.

 

I think we need to be more open about the idea of voluntary relationships.

If she think her children will always be there for her no matter what, then it will not matter to her what she does to them.

That is beautiful.  Vulnerability is a powerful magic.

[MMX2010]

You can't counter the "Do you have kids?" retort with any conventional answer.

 

So don't give one. 

 

Take a masculine stance, add an eye-roll and a dismissive chuckle.  Then say, "What a funny thing to ask.  If I say no, you'll say I'm ignorant.  If I say yes, you'll say that I should handle my own kids and leave you alone.  By asking that question, you just want to win even though you're wrong."  (You might have to drag this out to make the point.)

 

Dragging looks like this: (1) Stance, eyeroll, chuckle.  (2) She asks WTF.  (3) You say, "What a funny thing to say."  (4) Wait.  (5) "If I say no, you'll say I'm ignorant.  If I say yes, you'll say that I should handle my own kids and leave you alone.  By asking that question, you just want to win even though you're wrong."  (You might have to drag out Point #5.)

[_LiveFree_]

At the beginning of my shift at work this morning, there was a toddler playing with the mirror of the backroom door. I just said "excuse me," playfully, and all of a sudden her mother yanks her off the door saying, "I've had enough with you!" I walk in to go and look for something for a customer, and when I come out, that same mother is blocking my only way back to the counter and while I stand there and wait, she says "I'm sorry," sweetly to me, but then goes to start pointing fingers at her toddler struggling to get out of the stroler her mother is cramming in, and continues to nag at her.

 

Me: "You better be sorry because you shouldn't be so rough with her."

 

Her: "Yeah well I'm really tired, and we've been shopping for hours."

 

Me: "I totally get that and understand, but treating her this way is only gonna frustrate her further, making things that much harder for you."

 

Her: "Do you want to pick her up and carry her for the rest of the day?"

 

I don't know what to say and just shoot a quizzical look at her. Then she gives the typical abuser question to me: "do you have your own kids?"

 

And this is where I feel a bit jaded about. I know if I said no, she would be like, "then wait til you have your own kids."

 

So I decided to lie and say, "yes I do." I'm not proud of this, but at this point I wanted to get expiramenta and see what would happen.

 

And she retorts: "then you worry about your own kids and I'll worry about mine."

 

To which I just had enough of it, exchange a quick glance with her son who I hope took something from watching that interaction. But I'll never know. My regret is not staying in there longer to talk to the kids and empathize with them and saying anything further...

 

I walk through and on my way back to the cash register, another woman stops me and says, "I agree with you," with a lot of concern painted over her face. I tell her thanks and then get back to work, feeling shaken up and barely able to speak to the next customer coherently.

 

This was my first child abuse intervention outside of my family and it was scary...does anyone have any feedback on how I handled that? I think I could have done waaaay better than that...

 

 

Remember that time when you were first trying to walk and you fell flat out your face in the least graceful movement you'll likely ever make? Well, without that first attempt you'd never have learned how to do so many other awesome things. This may not have been what you had in mind as to how this would go, but for a first attempt it's pretty good. There were no fights, no yelling, no spitting, no cop calling, no crowds attacking, no riots. 

 

One thing you could try if you encounter a similar situation where you need to get around a playing child is to make your address to them a bit more personal. Use, "Excuse me young sir," or "Excuse me young miss," with a big smile of course. Then be sure to flash that big smile at the parent, too. The smile and show of respect could actually prevent any abuse from occurring in the moment and might reduce the parent's stress level. The likelihood of permanently altering how a parent treats their child in a brief encounter is close to zero. So think about what emotions you'd like to see from the parent and try to bring those into the situation as an example in order to alter only the present moment. 

 

Now in more extreme cases of abuse anger is a completely appropriate response. This will draw the parent's attention from the kid to you while showing the kid that what the parent is doing may actually not be acceptable. If a parent is that worked up, you won't be able to affect their mood no matter what you do. 

 

Just remember, while your emotions are completely valid no matter what they are, expressing them to someone who is already showing a complete failure to fire empathy neurons is not always the best course of action. Your inner world is for you and those few special people who have earned your trust, not everyone.

 

Anyway, these situations are tough because you're dealing with a full grown adult who has the emotional self-knowledge of the toddler they are abusing.

[Zerubbabel]

(...)

 

Good Point. The Mean-to-Mean maxim is intrinsically escalatory, and ends in a total obscuration of the moral distinction between Mean-1 and Mean-2.

 

.

[MMX2010]

This was my first child abuse intervention outside of my family and it was scary...does anyone have any feedback on how I handled that? I think I could have done waaaay better than that...

 

Did you either role play these situations out multiple times beforehand OR write out a flow chart of multiple conversational options beforehand?

One thing you could try if you encounter a similar situation where you need to get around a playing child is to make your address to them a bit more personal. Use, "Excuse me young sir," or "Excuse me young miss," with a big smile of course. Then be sure to flash that big smile at the parent, too. The smile and show of respect could actually prevent any abuse from occurring in the moment and might reduce the parent's stress level. The likelihood of permanently altering how a parent treats their child in a brief encounter is close to zero. So think about what emotions you'd like to see from the parent and try to bring those into the situation as an example in order to alter only the present moment. 

 

Tell me more.  Have you tried this before, and how often does it succeed?

[MysterionMuffles]

Did you either role play these situations out multiple times beforehand OR write out a flow chart of multiple conversational options beforehand?

 

No it's from experience, witnessing, and people having told me their own intervention stories. Abusive parents seem to have generic responses that all sound the same. I wouldn't want to write a flow chart because I don't want my interventions to be contrived.

Would using RTR be helpful in a scenario like this? "I'm not trying to lay the blame on you for my feelings, but when you yelled at your daughter, it made me feel upset and anxious." It is likely that someone else has spoken up to her abuse before and you got to hear her canned response. If you start the interaction off on a different foot, perhaps she'll be pushed off balance by your approach.

That's interesting...but I think RTR should be saved for close relationships, functional or historical.

How do you think a parent would respond to RTRing like that?

[MMX2010]

No it's from experience, witnessing, and people having told me their own intervention stories. Abusive parents seem to have generic responses that all sound the same. I wouldn't want to write a flow chart because I don't want my interventions to be contrived.

 

Let me make sure I hear you properly.  You're saying that you would rather NOT PRACTICE your voice tones, body language, utterances, and responses-to-predictable-responses because you don't want to be "fake" or "contrived"? 

 

Am I getting that right? 

[shirgall]

I think I have to echo the idea that "practiced" does not equal "contrived." We all want to sound natural, but one of the ways to sound natural is to practice with a real human being that gives you feedback. Having it all as a jumble in your head will not be as effective.

[_LiveFree_]

Zelenn likened parenthood as a credential akin to having an advanced degree. Jamz, you mentioned credibility in the field of babysitting. I don't know of any children that get to interview their future parents for the role of mother and father, much less the rest of the extended family. There is no license or required training in order to become a parent. As I already mentioned, "Do you have children?" is a tactic in order to throw you off her scent.

 

Would using RTR be helpful in a scenario like this? "I'm not trying to lay the blame on you for my feelings, but when you yelled at your daughter, it made me feel upset and anxious." It is likely that someone else has spoken up to her abuse before and you got to hear her canned response. If you start the interaction off on a different foot, perhaps she'll be pushed off balance by your approach.

 

Careful there. RTR is not "when you did this, I felt this." <-- That is a story and is not necessarily a true statement. 

 

RTR is this...  *something happens*  then you say, "I am feeling upset and anxious right now." 

 

The difference is twofold: 1) you're not telling a story, you're sharing your experience as it happens. Not WHY you think you are having an experience, just the experience itself. 2) When you create a story about how they did something that caused you to feel a certain way, you are not being vulnerable, and in fact are putting the other person on the defensive. 

 

 

I know it's difficult and I still struggle with it, too. But please be careful when talking about RTR. We certainly don't want to confuse emotional manipulation for emotional vulnerability. That's a dark road.

 

This is also why you do not want to RTR with people you know are abusers. Why open yourself up to be abused? Now if you come from an abusive home, it's difficult to break away. By being vulnerable with abusive parents we gain experiential knowledge that when you are completely vulnerable these people will pull the trigger. This interaction is only necessary in order to gain clarity on the true dynamic of the relationship so you can end it. It is not a blueprint for all interactions. 

 

We live in a very sick world, do not take your mask off unless you know it's safe. Keeping your mask on doesn't mean you can't make a difference. 

On the idea of practicing these interactions, I highly recommend IFS therapy as a means for this. Not only do my personality parts like to genuinely disagree with me, but they are really really good at role playing these types of situations. 

[MysterionMuffles]

 

Let me make sure I hear you properly.  You're saying that you would rather NOT PRACTICE your voice tones, body language, utterances, and responses-to-predictable-responses because you don't want to be "fake" or "contrived"? 

 

Am I getting that right? 

You bring up a valid point. Sorry for downvoting you. I felt offended at first, but I understand where you're coming from. These parents are communicating in a contrived way, so there might not be anything wrong with me contriving my response.

One thing you could try if you encounter a similar situation where you need to get around a playing child is to make your address to them a bit more personal. Use, "Excuse me young sir," or "Excuse me young miss," with a big smile of course. Then be sure to flash that big smile at the parent, too. The smile and show of respect could actually prevent any abuse from occurring in the moment and might reduce the parent's stress level. The likelihood of permanently altering how a parent treats their child in a brief encounter is close to zero. So think about what emotions you'd like to see from the parent and try to bring those into the situation as an example in order to alter only the present moment. 

 

 

Thanks for the tip, that sounds like a great idea! I was very neutral in "scuuuuse me" to the little girl and the mother must have taken that as an annoyance on my part, when it really wasn't. I don't appreciate being managed like that. But you're right, flashing a smile might most likely tear some defenses down. And thank you for pointing out that it's only my first time and I'm bound to be rusty at it. I almost wish I never have to intervene, but again, I work in a mall which is home to abusive parents hassling their kids around--so I would like to get better at this over time.

[MMX2010]

You bring up a valid point. Sorry for downvoting you. I felt offended at first, but I understand where you're coming from. These parents are communicating in a contrived way, so there might not be anything wrong with me contriving my response.

 

I don't think you get it, RJ.

 

I've recently become a member of the RooshVForum, and am trying to formulate a series of uniquely helpful articles for the Return Of Kings website.  Roosh, if you don't know, is famous for sleeping with hundreds of women from multiple countries, and he has written many travel / pick up artist books. 

 

If you asked the RooshVForum whether it's better to be "natural" or "contrived", you'd get three responses: (1) Your warning level would increase by at least 25% because that topic has been beaten to death and you should've used the search function.  (2) Most of the men would insult you through memes.  (3) Some of the kinder men would warn that you'll never get better at hitting on, and sleeping with, women if you let that meaningless question interfere with your self-improvement. 

 

Again, that's the reaction you'd get from men who are trying to get better at sleeping with women.  Sleeping with women is far less important than preventing child abuse, but their devotion to learning is unassailable. 

 

-----------------------

 

Meanwhile, in this thread about preventing child abuse, I got one downvote for pointing out the inconsistency between noticing predictable behaviors in abusive parents and refusing to practice your behaviors hundreds of times beforehand.  (Seriously, WTF?) 

 

I also got three downvotes for asking Nathan Diehl whether he has tried a specific technique, and how often it works as he described.  (Again, WTF?) 

 

And I also got three downvotes for advocating a very aggressive body language and voice tone when delivering a specific message.  (No explanation, mind you, of what is wrong with my idea.  Just downvoted.) 

 

Do I need to remind you all that we're discussing preventing child abuse, a topic so fucking important that we are morally obliged to either: (A) Learn how to do it right, or (B) Not do it at all, for fear of our inexpert meddling making this worse for children? 

 

So, in that spirit, who downvoted me, and why? 

 

-------------------------------

 

 

 

Thanks for the tip, that sounds like a great idea! I was very neutral in "scuuuuse me" to the little girl and the mother must have taken that as an annoyance on my part, when it really wasn't. I don't appreciate being managed like that. But you're right, flashing a smile might most likely tear some defenses down. And thank you for pointing out that it's only my first time and I'm bound to be rusty at it. I almost wish I never have to intervene, but again, I work in a mall which is home to abusive parents hassling their kids around--so I would like to get better at this over time.

 

 

One: You don't know whether it's a great idea, because Nathan Diehl hasn't explained how often he has tried this, and how often it has succeeded.  If he's speculating, but hasn't tried it, then everyone deserves to know this. 

 

Two: You don't know whether a smile, as he described, will disarm or piss off an abusive parent.  Either reactions are possible. 

 

Three: If you write out every possible parental response and practice your replies a hundred times before you intervene, then it won't matter whether your smile disarms or angers.  You'll be prepared either way. 

 

Four:  You don't have to intervene!  If you don't know how, don't!  If you wrongfully think you know how, you'll make it worse for the child.  Lastly, the fact that you downvoted me provides clear evidence that YOU'RE NOT READY.  Downvoting me for brining up a valid point strongly suggests that you're putting your own emotional needs before those of abused children.  So get your emotional health intact FIRST, and THEN try preventing child abuse. 

[shirgall]

So, in that spirit, who downvoted me, and why? 

 

I actually upvoted you to counteract downvotes.

[J. D. Stembal]

Careful there. RTR is not "when you did this, I felt this." <-- That is a story and is not necessarily a true statement. 

 

RTR is this...  *something happens*  then you say, "I am feeling upset and anxious right now." 

 

The difference is twofold: 1) you're not telling a story, you're sharing your experience as it happens. Not WHY you think you are having an experience, just the experience itself. 2) When you create a story about how they did something that caused you to feel a certain way, you are not being vulnerable, and in fact are putting the other person on the defensive. 

 

 

I know it's difficult and I still struggle with it, too. But please be careful when talking about RTR. We certainly don't want to confuse emotional manipulation for emotional vulnerability. That's a dark road.

 

This is also why you do not want to RTR with people you know are abusers. Why open yourself up to be abused? Now if you come from an abusive home, it's difficult to break away. By being vulnerable with abusive parents we gain experiential knowledge that when you are completely vulnerable these people will pull the trigger. This interaction is only necessary in order to gain clarity on the true dynamic of the relationship so you can end it. It is not a blueprint for all interactions. 

 

We live in a very sick world, do not take your mask off unless you know it's safe. Keeping your mask on doesn't mean you can't make a difference. 

On the idea of practicing these interactions, I highly recommend IFS therapy as a means for this. Not only do my personality parts like to genuinely disagree with me, but they are really really good at role playing these types of situations. 

 

Thanks for the input, Nathan. I will find this very helpful in the near future as I'm reading through Jay Earley's Self-Therapy. I'm currently trying to map out my personality parts.

 

I was frustrated when reading about RJ's experience because I must have been in his shoes hundreds of times before in public and said nothing to parents like this. The "Do you have kids?" defense is so predictable, and it bothers me on so many levels. For example, what if I was the child in the stroller, and the woman was my mother (or the homemaker who sat for me), and I was my only protector? I don't specifically recall a scenario like this happening during my early childhood, but I'm not willing to rule something like that out. In my memory, after stroller age, I was running all over the place in public, so it's possible I got a verbal reprimand followed by being snatched at some point, perhaps by an unrelated adult.

 

Don't worry about the negs, MMX. I've got your back. You've hit a bad streak lately.

[J. D. Stembal]

So don't give one. 

 

Take a masculine stance, add an eye-roll and a dismissive chuckle.  Then say, "What a funny thing to ask.  If I say no, you'll say I'm ignorant.  If I say yes, you'll say that I should handle my own kids and leave you alone.  By asking that question, you just want to win even though you're wrong."  (You might have to drag this out to make the point.)

 

Dragging looks like this: (1) Stance, eyeroll, chuckle.  (2) She asks WTF.  (3) You say, "What a funny thing to say."  (4) Wait.  (5) "If I say no, you'll say I'm ignorant.  If I say yes, you'll say that I should handle my own kids and leave you alone.  By asking that question, you just want to win even though you're wrong."  (You might have to drag out Point #5.)

 

I would answer the question with a question of my own. "Does being a parent give you the right to treat a child is this way?"

[MMX2010]

I actually upvoted you to counteract downvotes.

 

Thank you.    I know who downvoted me in my most recent post.  I'm not surprised at who it was. 

[MMX2010]

Don't worry about the negs, MMX. I've got your back. You've hit a bad streak lately.

 

I don't agree.  A bad streak would be if multiple people found negative things to say about my posts and explained them.  Instead, it's the same two (or three) people who are downvoting me, because I disagreed with them in other threads. 

 

Here are my maxims on intervening during child abuse situations. 

 

(1) Intervening in child abuse situations isn't a hobby; it's a lifestyle.  You must dramatically improve (if necessary) your body language, body shape, personal hygiene, tone-of-voice, emotional control, diet, and exercise patterns if you want to succeed.  If this is too demanding for you, don't bother. 

 

(2) There is only one standard by which you should evaluate your performance: the empirical evidence indicating how much your helped the kid.  There are no bonus points for trying.  You either helped the kid or you didn't. 

 

(3) If you're not sure whether you helped the kid, presume that you didn't help the kid.  You want to be 100% goddamn sure that you helped. 

 

(4) If you enter the intervention expecting empathy from the abusive parent, cheers from the crowd, help from society, or praise from either the mother, child, or onlookers, THEN DON'T INTERVENE.  Abusive parents are non-empathetic and stupid; society either looks away from or condones child abuse; and the child is just going to side with his/her mother.  So entering the intervention expecting kind words, a long Stef-inspired discussion, and a hug is a guaranteed way to lose. 

 

(5) EVERYTHING the abusive parent says is designed to make you doubt yourself and your message.  Because RJ left the conversation shaken, and wondering whether it was right of him to lie, he lost.  It's wonderful that philosophy gives us the truth, but that doesn't matter when we deliver the message poorly or when the message itself doesn't resonate. 

 

(6) Tell this to yourself 100 times until you accept this: "There is neither a moral law, nor a FDR mandate, that you must intervene in child abuse situations."  It's be wonderful if you were strong and confident enough to do this effectively, but if you're not....you're not.  And if you're not, then it's 95% NOT YOUR FAULT for this.  Almost all of the fault rests with your parents and society-as-a-whole.  You don't become "less devoted to philosophy" just because you can't effectively intervene.  Instead, you show your devotion to philosophy by NOT intervening until you're ready. 

 

Anyone who downvotes this ought to explain why. 

[MMX2010]

I would answer the question with a question of my own. "Does being a parent give you the right to treat a child is this way?"

 

I like that, but I'd go stronger and more personal, "Everyone knows that a good mother wouldn't do what you just did." 

 

The question, "Do you have children?" is a shit-test.  If you say, "No", then they say you don't know what you're talking about.  If you say, "Yes", then they say you should already know to mind your own business. 

 

Shit tests are naturally designed to shake your confidence, and they indicate that the questioner isn't interested in seriously discussing their own parenting.  During a shit test, if you stalemate, you lose. 

 

(The Gracies explained fighting this way, "If a huge guy and a small guy get into a fight, and it ends in a draw with no one getting seriously hurt, then who won the fight?"  The same logic applies to shit-testing, but, unfortunately, the child abuser intervener is the "huge guy", while the child abuser is the "little guy".  So if you stalemate, you lose.) 

[Three]

One of the things that makes the shit test so viciously brilliant is that, as they are asking you the question "do you have kids?", they are simultaneously attempting the own the definition of the word 'parenting'. As it was stated earlier, In that question is the imbedded premise that "if you don't have children then you don't have credibility to criticize my parenting."

What makes this totally false is that, cruelly yelling at a child about how sick you are of them is not parenting. It is abuse. They are trying to re-frame their actions as a form of parenting that you have no right to criticize since you aren't a parent. This puts you on the defensive and gives them control of the interaction. 

Thus, when you tell a parent not to speak cruel words to a child, I have found it useful to take the broken record stance of breaking through such attempts of 'definition ownership' by repeating "that's not parenting, that's abuse." 

[MysterionMuffles]

One of the things that makes the shit test so viciously brilliant is that, as they are asking you the question "do you have kids?", they are simultaneously attempting the own the definition of the word 'parenting'. As it was stated earlier, In that question is the imbedded premise that "if you don't have children then you don't have credibility to criticize my parenting."

 

What makes this totally false is that, cruelly yelling at a child about how sick you are of them is not parenting. It is abuse. They are trying to re-frame their actions as a form of parenting that you have no right to criticize since you aren't a parent. This puts you on the defensive and gives them control of the interaction. 

 

Thus, when you tell a parent not to speak cruel words to a child, I have found it useful to take the broken record stance of breaking through such attempts of 'definition ownership' by repeating "that's not parenting, that's abuse." 

 

That is short and sweet, and quite true...

 

Do you think it's wise to also put forth the argument that using their size and power to control someone infinitely smaller than them is abusive? Or furthermore, asking a mother if they would allow their husband to treat them in such a way? Is that too stand off-ish, or warranted?

[MMX2010]

One of the things that makes the shit test so viciously brilliant is that, as they are asking you the question "do you have kids?", they are simultaneously attempting the own the definition of the word 'parenting'. As it was stated earlier, In that question is the imbedded premise that "if you don't have children then you don't have credibility to criticize my parenting."

 

Yes.

 

There's also a concept in Game called "qualifying", which establishes the dominant/submissive aspect of the relationship.  For example, if a man makes the first move by hitting on a woman, he is "qualifying" himself to her by chasing her, and giving her the power.  Whereas if a man is minding his own business and the same woman openly flirts with him, and then he hits on her, then she has "qualified" herself for his attention - which gives him the power. 

 

Asking, "Do you have children?", is an attempt to make you "qualify" yourself to the abusive parent.  So the proper attitude is an absolute refusal to qualify yourself to an abuser.  And this is where practicing your posture, body language, voice tone, and 100% conviction is so important.  (If you deliver the correct message with even a hint of submission, you've subconsciously qualified yourself for the abusive parents' approval.  But no abusive parent is ever your equal.  She's your inferior, because she's behaving inferiorly.)