Child Abuse Intervention at Wal-Mart

[Three]

I just walked away from one of the most difficult child abuse interventions, yet. 

As I was walking into wall mart, I see a black woman hit her what looked to be a 3 year old son on the arm and snapped at him to "come here."


I walked over to the lady and said to her, "I understand parenting is difficult, but you shouldn't hit children."

Things escalated incredibly quickly. 

First she asked if I had any kids. 

I said yes(which wasn't true) and then she told me to worry about them. 

I told her, "I knew you were going to say that."

She then started an incredibly racist sentence about how she don''t care how "ya'll white people raise your kids". "These are my kids."

"I know you don't  care. You shouldn't hit children." I said in return. It was I this point my anxiety was so strong 
I felt my brain shutting down, I had tunnel vision. I could barely get words out of my mouth.

She then went on to say that if I don't leave she'd 'put me down' right then and there because she was from detroit. 

The wal-mart greeter than walked over, smiling ,a young black male, and shook his hands and head indicating that I drop it. 

I then walked away, but did say to the child that nobody should hit him. I feel really angry and really depressed, powerless, and helpless about the whole thing now and I'm not sure why. 

I also feel an intense amount of disgust and hatred for people like her. 

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

I think your responses were perfect. She's not bothering to be reasonable, why should you be?

 

I think this is a numbers game. The more people who do this, the more it's going to approach a critical mass where people will openly fear social ostracism.

 

Keep going and learn how to feel more powerful after situations like these. The time will come. You're on the learning curve now.

[AynRand]

That's very nice of you to intervene on that child's behalf. I think you handled that situation very nicely considering the circumstances. Great response to her statement "ya'll white people raise your kids". I wish I was that good coming up with things to say on the spot.

[FattyWatt]

Thank you for doing this!  Child abusers should feel VERY afraid, in this society   Maybe the child will get hit, even 1-less time.... & that is an acheivement!!

[shirgall]

I am always afraid that when I'm approaching someone abusive to their own child there's absolutely nothing holding them back from being abusive to me. I like to think I'm tough, and standing up for a kid is noble, but it always makes me think twice. As a result, I haven't done this yet, but I haven't seen anything like this in over a year either.

Joel, I don't thank people enough for doing this sort of thing. Thank you for standing up to abuse and holding your ground.

[LettyClarissa]

I think what you did was admirable. It's great that you spoke the little boy afterwards. I hope he can remember this incident and the empathy you showed him. 

[fractional slacker]

Holy crap. That was an incredibly brave thing to do. Thank you for taking the time to do that and setting a high standard. Stories like yours, while the outcome not meeting expectations, are a great lesson to myself and I suspect others, as well.

[Three]

I think your responses were perfect. She's not bothering to be reasonable, why should you be?

 

I think this is a numbers game. The more people who do this, the more it's going to approach a critical mass where people will openly fear social ostracism.

 

Keep going and learn how to feel more powerful after situations like these. The time will come. You're on the learning curve now.

 

I appreciate your encouragement!

 

 

That's very nice of you to intervene on that child's behalf. I think you handled that situation very nicely considering the circumstances. Great response to her statement "ya'll white people raise your kids". I wish I was that good coming up with things to say on the spot.

Coming up with things on the spot has always been a challenge for me as well. Thank you for your support. 

 

 

Thank you for doing this!  Child abusers should feel VERY afraid, in this society   Maybe the child will get hit, even 1-less time.... & that is an acheivement!!

I agree. I wish I had buddy at my side while I was doing this sometimes. I appreciate the compliment!

 

I am always afraid that when I'm approaching someone abusive to their own child there's absolutely nothing holding them back from being abusive to me. I like to think I'm tough, and standing up for a kid is noble, but it always makes me think twice. As a result, I haven't done this yet, but I haven't seen anything like this in over a year either.

Joel, I don't thank people enough for doing this sort of thing. Thank you for standing up to abuse and holding your ground.

 

That is very kind. Your encouragement  and support is always greatly appreciate. It makes child abuse interventions way easier

 

 

I think what you did was admirable. It's great that you spoke the little boy afterwards. I hope he can remember this incident and the empathy you showed him. 

 

Thank you bunches! I hope so too.

Holy crap. That was an incredibly brave thing to do. Thank you for taking the time to do that and setting a high standard. Stories like yours, while the outcome not meeting expectations, are a great lesson to myself and I suspect others, as well.

 

Thank you so much. After processing the situation, I'm really grateful for my anxiety levels. Things could have escalated pretty horribly and since she's a woman, if I were to defend myself had she hit me, I would suffer more punishment than her, I'm sure of it. I also don't want to expose children to such a scenario anyway. 

 

Next time I'm not going to try to argue with the parent as much. Instead I'll focus more on the child and make my interaction with the parent a for of a 'hit and run' mission. 

 

[Matt D]

Joel,

 

I think I know what you were feeling regarding the mix of enormous terror and sadness and anger. I'll share with you a similar story I have.

 

I confronted a middle-aged man who I saw spank his child on an airplane. I'm shaking with anger even thinking about that incident. This guy spanked his toddler while standing up halfway through the flight because the kid was playfully punching him on the shoulder and wouldn't "listen". Everyone within ten aisles observed what happened however most just became suddenly interested in the magazine they were reading. I stared straight at him until eventually he couldn't ignore my glare and uncomfortably climbed back into his seat.

 

Once the plane landed I waited outside the gate and followed him to baggage claim. It was their that I tapped him on the shoulder and said I "can see your children love you but I think there are better ways to discipline them than spanking." He denied ever having spanked his kids and began to get extremely angry at me. I insisted that I knew what I saw.

At that point he went over to his child and asked him if he had ever spanked him. The child just stared at him with a terrified dumbfounded look, which the father took as agreement. Then the father said to me "You don't know what you're talking about; I was beaten as a child, so don't tell me what spanking is." Other people around us were watching the interaction intently. One heavy-set black woman said casually, "I hit my kids." Seeing there was nothing more I could do I walked out of the terminal.

 

The biggest worry I had was confronting in a way that would not lead to greater violence being inflicted on the children. I intentionally waited until the father was separated from his children to confront him man-to-man. But unfortunately, he chose to use his kid as a human shield from his own actions. It's vile, but predictable. I'm still glad I did what I did because the child will never forget what he saw that day.

[tasmlab]

I wonder if it would be effective to try to include whatever crowd is around into a shaming. e.g., say very loudly "look everybody at this woman hitting a child.  Shame on her!"

[Carl Green]

The types of people that would hit their children, are the same types of people that don't like to be told what to do and will often become aggressive. As you've witnessed. So I think a different approach would have a better chance at success.

 

The shame approach only works if the person cares about your opinion.

[nathanm]

The Wal-Mart greeter is part of the problem.  Screw that guy.  Look the other way, don't get involved, It's Just How She Is, just stand aside and let shitty people abuse defenseless kids until the end of time and then whine and moan about how lousy the world is.  All the little fights against injustice that decent people have avoided pile up over time and next thing you know you're living in a heap of garbage.

[OGMizen]

I think if someone like that threatened me I'd continue and if they hit me I'd call the police. Shame children arent protected by law but adults are.

[Three]

Joel,

 

I think I know what you were feeling regarding the mix of enormous terror and sadness and anger. I'll share with you a similar story I have.

 

I confronted a middle-aged man who I saw spank his child on an airplane. I'm shaking with anger even thinking about that incident. This guy spanked his toddler while standing up halfway through the flight because the kid was playfully punching him on the shoulder and wouldn't "listen". Everyone within ten aisles observed what happened however most just became suddenly interested in the magazine they were reading. I stared straight at him until eventually he couldn't ignore my glare and uncomfortably climbed back into his seat.

 

Once the plane landed I waited outside the gate and followed him to baggage claim. It was their that I tapped him on the shoulder and said I "can see your children love you but I think there are better ways to discipline them than spanking." He denied ever having spanked his kids and began to get extremely angry at me. I insisted that I knew what I saw.

At that point he went over to his child and asked him if he had ever spanked him. The child just stared at him with a terrified dumbfounded look, which the father took as agreement. Then the father said to me "You don't know what you're talking about; I was beaten as a child, so don't tell me what spanking is." Other people around us were watching the interaction intently. One heavy-set black woman said casually, "I hit my kids." Seeing there was nothing more I could do I walked out of the terminal.

 

The biggest worry I had was confronting in a way that would not lead to greater violence being inflicted on the children. I intentionally waited until the father was separated from his children to confront him man-to-man. But unfortunately, he chose to use his kid as a human shield from his own actions. It's vile, but predictable. I'm still glad I did what I did because the child will never forget what he saw that day.

You're story in really inspiring and encouraging! I really appreciate you sharing That's a very brave thing to do. 

 

 

I wonder if it would be effective to try to include whatever crowd is around into a shaming. e.g., say very loudly "look everybody at this woman hitting a child.  Shame on her!"

I'm not sure, my gut tells me it wouldn't work since most people see this stuff as often as I do when I go out and say nothing.  But, I'm not sure. I appreciate your feedback. It's something to think about. 

 

 

The types of people that would hit their children, are the same types of people that don't like to be told what to do and will often become aggressive. As you've witnessed. So I think a different approach would have a better chance at success.

 

The shame approach only works if the person cares about your opinion.

 

i think you're right. Next time I will do more of a hit and run and focus more on the child and less on what the parent says. 

 

 

The Wal-Mart greeter is part of the problem.  Screw that guy.  Look the other way, don't get involved, It's Just How She Is, just stand aside and let shitty people abuse defenseless kids until the end of time and then whine and moan about how lousy the world is.  All the little fights against injustice that decent people have avoided pile up over time and next thing you know you're living in a heap of garbage.

 I agree. Very well said. Thank you for sharing. 

 

I think if someone like that threatened me I'd continue and if they hit me I'd call the police. Shame children arent protected by law but adults are.

 

I agree, It's very sad. Thank you for replying. 

[MysterionMuffles]

I wonder how much differently this could have turned out if the greeter got involved...let alone if all workplace employees banded together to ensure child abuse didn't occur at their stores. The message would be much stronger I think.

 

Good for you once again, Joel. Like I said in our conversation before, I think you're a true superhero actually accomplishing tangible good in the world without wearing goofy tights and hurting people in the process.

 

Other than the egos of abusive parents of course...

Next time I'm not going to try to argue with the parent as much. Instead I'll focus more on the child and make my interaction with the parent a for of a 'hit and run' mission. 

 

Between you and me, I notice there's the regret of barely acknowledging the child after intervening with them being abused. I wonder to what degree we are intervening for the sake of saving the children or our own vindication for the abusive we've suffered as children. Not to say it's wrong or trying to ascribe my own projections on you, but personally for me, I feel like it's more 60/40 when it comes to intervening. It's my way of retaking the power I had lost, and it's selfish I suppose, but at some point I do have to start interacting with the children more and let them know it was for them rather than for me wanting to pick a fight.

[LovePrevails]

[AccuTron]

Okay, I'm throwing a brick onto the table.

 

The second story about the airliner is suck city, no dispute there.

 

 

The OP story is limited in evidence to "hit her...3 year old son on the arm and snapped at him to "come here.""

 

Would you want to be a defendant in a courtroom with that testimony?  

 

"Snapped" is quite subjective, and it sounds like the OP was highly un-objective in his mood.  To a Deep Southerner, anyone at all in much of NYC will sound snappish when they merely give the weather. 

 

"Hit"…how hard?  Not trying to be a grinch here, but are we talking about a slap heard two aisles down, or something that would maybe knock over a soda can?  Was she trying to shepherd a small child who kept ignoring her, while holding onto a shopping cart and purse, amongst somewhat heavy foot traffic that could knock down the kid?  So much description, in fact nearly ALL, is left out here.

 

Sorry guys, but I feel like this is a pack of PC wolves snapping at the air.  Way too reflexive w/o checking the facts.  

 

PS.  The door greeter was THE EMOTIONALLY UNINVOLVED WITNESS.  He might have known what he was doing.

 

PPS.  Wait, you lied to her?  As in, subconsciously you knew you were on shaky ground?

[Kevin Beal]

Would you want to be a defendant in a courtroom with that testimony?

Well, what's the charge? It's that it's abuse isn't it? What are we talking about when we say "abuse"?

 

If somebody hits me with just enough force to knock over a soda can, that's not going to do anything to deter me from doing what I want, right? I mean, that would defeat the purpose of the snapping and hitting, wouldn't it? I don't know that I've ever seen someone hit another person that softly before, actually.

 

A parent who doesn't hit hard enough to frighten or hurt the child is doing something that's pretty pointless. What good what that do them? It's more than reasonable to assume that this is the case that it was hard enough to frighten or hurt. In fact, I'm not even sure what you are asking us to consider. Unless it's some kind of slight at the OP. I mean, it would imply some pretty extreme hypersensitivity on the part of the OP, right?

 

I've been hit before and the decibel level wasn't really a factor from what I remember, so volume isn't a good criteria. Abuse doesn't have to make a sound at all, and I doubt you would disagree.

 

I just did a google search for "abusive behavior" and the first result includes the following examples of abusive behavior:

• Dominance
• Humiliation
• Isolation
• Threats
• Intimidation
• Denial and blame

Snapping at and hitting a child, even if we take a mild interpretation of these words still imply abuse according to experts in the field. It's threatening, humiliating, intimidation and dominating whatever way you cut it. And you may disagree with this criteria, in which case it would be incumbent upon you to present this new standard and make your case as to why it is better. Standards for abuse used in the show, in this thread and according to the first google result all point to abuse, which could totally be wrong, but to suggest that it's baseless is kinda your burden to prove.

 

And I don't know what you're talking about with the subjective stuff. I mean, what exactly is objective about your response? You _feel_ like it's PC chomping wolves, "too reflexive", "highly un-objective", etc. I don't know what any of that means. It certainly sounds bad, but it's not like a standard is given, or anything that we, the readers of your post, can use to independently arrive at your conclusion through an analysis of the reason and evidence.

 

The OP presented the facts and his experience of the interaction, in fact, I didn't think it was too subjective or vague, and still don't. At least, not because you say so. Ironically, I'm not at all sure what your criticism even is. People shouldn't do what exactly? They shouldn't accept that the interaction was abusive? Or they shouldn't express contempt for the woman prior to asking more questions? I don't know.

 

You may "feel" like people are hypersensitive and should get some perspective, or whatever (not actually a "feeling", but whatever), and maybe this is true. Just present the reason and evidence and we'll be able to validate your logic and conclude for ourselves what to think about that.

 

 

How was that? Was that worthy of the stand, your honor?

[Beour]

Between you and me, I notice there's the regret of barely acknowledging the child after intervening with them being abused. I wonder to what degree we are intervening for the sake of saving the children or our own vindication for the abusive we've suffered as children. Not to say it's wrong or trying to ascribe my own projections on you, but personally for me, I feel like it's more 60/40 when it comes to intervening. It's my way of retaking the power I had lost, and it's selfish I suppose, but at some point I do have to start interacting with the children more and let them know it was for them rather than for me wanting to pick a fight.

 

You could also argue that because you went through similar horrors that that child is going through, you understand and empathise with the sheer terror of being physically abused by a parent like that.

 

 

I really wish there were people like Joel around when I was a kid. The world needs more people like you, Joel. 

[Three]

Okay, I'm throwing a brick onto the table.

 

The second story about the airliner is suck city, no dispute there.

 

 

The OP story is limited in evidence to "hit her...3 year old son on the arm and snapped at him to "come here.""

 

Would you want to be a defendant in a courtroom with that testimony?

 

"Snapped" is quite subjective, and it sounds like the OP was highly un-objective in his mood. To a Deep Southerner, anyone at all in much of NYC will sound snappish when they merely give the weather.

 

"Hit"…how hard? Not trying to be a grinch here, but are we talking about a slap heard two aisles down, or something that would maybe knock over a soda can? Was she trying to shepherd a small child who kept ignoring her, while holding onto a shopping cart and purse, amongst somewhat heavy foot traffic that could knock down the kid? So much description, in fact nearly ALL, is left out here.

 

Sorry guys, but I feel like this is a pack of PC wolves snapping at the air. Way too reflexive w/o checking the facts.

 

PS. The door greeter was THE EMOTIONALLY UNINVOLVED WITNESS. He might have known what he was doing.

 

PPS. Wait, you lied to her? As in, subconsciously you knew you were on shaky ground?

 

I'm honestly really confused by your post. I don't understand why your asking me how I'd feel to be the defendant with "that testimony"? Are you implying that I should be more precise?

 

Why is it that my board post has to meet the standard of a defendant's testimony in a court of law given that I am not a defendant and this isn't a court of law? Why would I be the defendant, rather than the lady who hit her child and then threatened to assault me?

 

 

I mean I could be more precise, but I think I already have been.

 

For example, the definition of snapped is to say something "quickly and irritably ". Google it. It's not that subjective.

 

Also when I say hit I am using that word instead of a word like "sheperd" because those are two completely different things.

 

To hit is to, bring one's hand or a tool or weapon into contact with (someone or something) quickly and forcefully, while to sheperd is to guard, guide or protect someone.

 

 

If the woman was "sheperding" the boy, then I would have used that word, rather than hit.

 

 

Either way, it's a personal anecdote so you're just going to have to take my word for it, so it makes no different even if I could tell you exactly what they were wearing.

 

Just like if I tell you I lounged outside today and listened to an MP3 player, you'll never know for sure.

 

 

 

 

Also, you can assign subconscious motives to my actions without evidence all you want. As long as there's no argument, it's just white noise as far as I'm concerned

[Three]

You could also argue that because you went through similar horrors that that child is going through, you understand and empathise with the sheer terror of being physically abused by a parent like that.

 

 

I really wish there were people like Joel around when I was a kid. The world needs more people like you, Joel. 

 That's an incredibly kind thing to say. Thank you

[Matthew Ed Moran]

Dude, you're awesome!

 

Also, I am not sure I am convinced by the argument that shaming is ineffective (for what that's worth). Maybe someone has elaborated on the anti-shame argument in a blog post or forum post?

 

I'm not sure anything will change people like this in the grand scheme of things besides if we make it really costly for them to hit their children (which would require more people doing this sort of thing than just you, Joel). They don't have empathy, after all! So what you did at least makes them fear confrontation, the annoyance of it, the possibility of other white people joining in with your shaming.. at the very least you made her waste a few minutes, and that is an annoyance she might want to avoid next time, maybe by not hitting him or not bringing him to the store at all.

 

Overall, I'm really not sure the best way to handle these situations, but I am curious what the argument is as to why shaming isn't the best option with people like this.I'll do my own research, but if anything is on anyone's fingertips, I'd be interested!

 

Also, great defense, Kevin! I might need you for some bad shit I'm bound to do in the future, so keep a posting in the phone book, will ya?

[J. D. Stembal]

You are a braver man than I, Joel.

 

I saw something like this happen at Goodwill last summer. A father was snapping at his young daughter while he pushed her in a shopping cart. He kept snarling, "Shut up! Shut the fuck up!" under his breath but loud enough to hear. He walked past me and I was considering saying something to him, but another man beat me to it. They nearly ended up getting physical and one of the employees had to come over to break them up while they yelled in the other's face.

 

I hesitated for a reason. The man was obviously volatile, but the man who approached him was even more hostile in his response.

[Laforge]

Tricky stuff. Don't forget we are still living in some sort of dark ages, especially on this matter.

Did anyone try very calmly and politely:
- can i ask you something?
"yeah, what?"
- sorry for bothering you, i was just wondering,
  suppose someone much smarter than you and twice your size hit you because you made a mistake,
  how would you feel about that?

Theres a small chance you'll get a calm intelligent conversation, more likely they'll say:

"but... its a KID!"

Or things will escalate even sooner:

"are you trying to tell me how to raise my kids?!!"

Imho you're already a hero for opening your month and can proudly walk away without saying one more word. If we're lucky this little story will stick in his/her mind like a brain virus. Assuming the parent isn't a complete sociopath.
 

[zmanx]

much respect!!! 

[Three]

Dude, you're awesome!

 

Also, I am not sure I am convinced by the argument that shaming is ineffective (for what that's worth). Maybe someone has elaborated on the anti-shame argument in a blog post or forum post?

 

I'm not sure anything will change people like this in the grand scheme of things besides if we make it really costly for them to hit their children (which would require more people doing this sort of thing than just you, Joel). They don't have empathy, after all! So what you did at least makes them fear confrontation, the annoyance of it, the possibility of other white people joining in with your shaming.. at the very least you made her waste a few minutes, and that is an annoyance she might want to avoid next time, maybe by not hitting him or not bringing him to the store at all.

 

Overall, I'm really not sure the best way to handle these situations, but I am curious what the argument is as to why shaming isn't the best option with people like this.I'll do my own research, but if anything is on anyone's fingertips, I'd be interested!

 

Also, great defense, Kevin! I might need you for some bad shit I'm bound to do in the future, so keep a posting in the phone book, will ya?

 

 

You are a braver man than I, Joel.

 

I saw something like this happen at Goodwill last summer. A father was snapping at his young daughter while he pushed her in a shopping cart. He kept snarling, "Shut up! Shut the fuck up!" under his breath but loud enough to hear. He walked past me and I was considering saying something to him, but another man beat me to it. They nearly ended up getting physical and one of the employees had to come over to break them up while they yelled in the other's face.

 

I hesitated for a reason. The man was obviously volatile, but the man who approached him was even more hostile in his response.

 

 

Tricky stuff. Don't forget we are still living in some sort of dark ages, especially on this matter.

 

Did anyone try very calmly and politely:

- can i ask you something?

"yeah, what?"

- sorry for bothering you, i was just wondering,

  suppose someone much smarter than you and twice your size hit you because you made a mistake,

  how would you feel about that?

 

Theres a small chance you'll get a calm intelligent conversation, more likely they'll say:

 

"but... its a KID!"

 

Or things will escalate even sooner:

 

"are you trying to tell me how to raise my kids?!!"

 

Imho you're already a hero for opening your month and can proudly walk away without saying one more word. If we're lucky this little story will stick in his/her mind like a brain virus. Assuming the parent isn't a complete sociopath.

 

 

 

much respect!!! 

Thank you all for your kind words.