jonschnee Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 my father: -"children are these little devils inside. they just want to have it their way no matter what. you can't succumb to their every whim. children try to manipulate us adults into getting what they want" my mother: - "so, you think when you have a child it should be the absolute center of your universe? You should orbit around it like a moon? What about equality?" me: "i don't really know, but i feel their needs come before ours. We don’t need to have children. They don’t choose us. their happiness is more important than ours in the moment except when you feel you really need time for yourself" mother and father: -"you are being an idealist. do you think the world is perfect?" me: "i know the world is far from being perfect. i feel terrible at the moment. let's just stop this conversation right away" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What happened today: we have a little girl in our extended family, she is 5 I think. they say she is growing to be a little manipulator. today when the family came over to dinner and I saw her crying I felt really sad for her. I approached her and asked and asked and asked and finally she told she felt lonely and that nobody wanted to play with her. we spent most of the evening playing, talking and watching "Frozen" together with her older (14 yo) sister. i felt sad because her parents were not helping her. she was left to sob in isolation. that makes me feel terrible. i made a mistake of sharing this feeling with my parents after the party finished. it went south from there.-I feel really sad that she was so lonely and nobody seemed to care.-But her father did. He talked to her. -Yeah, but that didn't solve the problem. When I saw her she was crying.-She was just being manipulative as she usually is. You think he should always be with her, playing and what-not. I bet they spent some time together playing and then they went to the party. The child needs to learn that there is time for adults and has to learn to play with herself.I got angry. i told them that i'm angry and it might be because i feel they are putting the blame on the victim, and it hurts even more so because it's a child. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- playing with her I got the feeling that as much attention as I was giving her it was really hard to make her feel really happy. they were arguing with her sister quite a lot there were new things and problems coming along the way. i think overall she had a nice evening today but it was as she was not fully happy/satisfied. at one point she said she wanted to destroy things because she was angry. i asked her why. she said that it's because she wanted to destroy things. i said, here, you can have this piece of paper and we can destroy it if she likes. she said she wanted to destroy something meaningful to us. i told her she can really tell me what she wants. i might not be able to give this to her but i am going to listen attentively. she kind of shut down. i think she didn't really trust me and that's why she didn't tell me that. i got a suspicion that the truth might be already to painful for her to acknowledge it and she automatically stops. (the truth being that what she is really lacking is great unconditional love from her primary caregivers and they will never give that to her). but it don't really know. she doesn't trust me that's pretty clear. together with her 14 yo sister were tickling each other and playing on the floor, throwing pillows at each other. at one point the younger girl started to cry. she said the younger sister kicked her in the head and that's why she is crying.-no I didn't! you are just lying! -no, you hit me and you are lying! and then when she curled up in a ball with little tears in her eyes and looked very abandoned and sad. so I asked her:-so, you feel hurt because your sister kicked you while we were playing, it hurt and now she says she didn't and she is calling you a liar? and you would like her to acknowledge that - even though unintentionally - she caused you pain? - yes. -she's lying! she is not being sincere. she is not really crying right now, just look at her. --------------------------------------------------------------------- i don't know what my father wanted to say when he said i am an idealist (because he uses this stupid devoid of meaning language) but I know when I hear that my little cousin is manipulative I feel really hurt.Another thing is that I can't accept the notion that maybe some children really are manipulative and evil and they would just ruin us if we fulfilled their every need. Doesn't sit well with me. Even though, you know what, I actually started to feel that my little cousin is really hard to satisfy. As if she were a little black hole for attention. But that didn't make me angry at all, it made me a little sad because I want to see this little child happy. i also feel quite overwhelmed when I talk with my parents about this. i feel worse after every conversation. and they feel worse, it's not productive. i can't really fight them with logic and i don't want to anyway. i need not talk to them about how children are or are not. and politics (what taxes are or are not). and religion (if woo-woo science works or not).I know it's not healthy for me to be living with them. And I don't live with them anymore. I just came home for Christmas about two weeks ago, and we've been getting into these stupid squabbles about stupid shit since then. And from time to time I just snap and tell them how I feel about this or that thing. And I always regret it. It's just that sometimes I feel so isolated being with them, having to keep my mouth shut, when there is a world of thoughts running through my mind. I need to be real sometimes and that's when I get into these stupid fights. Eh. To sum up: I feel it would be better for the child if the parents really were there for them, because obviously for me this little person looks like they were in pain, for real. i don't like myself being so judgmental about the parents not doing their job properly. but i can't stand a child crying. Questions: 1. do you think you should always react when you see a child crying? is that healthy for them and for you? 2. have you ever come across a child that is manipulative (in a bad, evil, selfish way) ? I feel better just by writing all this down, but I would like to hear your answers to my questions anyway. Thank you people. 2
J. D. Stembal Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 My heart is breaking for you and your cousin. I find your ability to interact with a five year old, using patience that all other adults in her life are lacking, very heroic. She will look back and think of you fondly. Unfortunately, she is already split off from her true self, as you could tell when you asked her about her destructive wishes. She still has the willful spirit of anger, however, but she cannot direct it at the guilty parties. By the time she hits puberty, she will already be broken, and will most likely act out her lack of a bond with her parents using hypersexuality or drug use. In my case, I did both. I want to point out a couple bits that bother me about your family story. Why is there such a large age difference between siblings? 14 and 5? It makes much more sense financially to have children closer in age. I'm wondering if one of the two children was an unplanned pregnancy or a pregnancy designed to rekindle the marriage. Of course, you do not have to tell me the answer to these questions and ponderings, but it's something you should probably consider after asking the family. Why would a teenager strike a child and then lie about it? That displays a distinct lack of empathy on her part. This does not bode well for the family. What are you getting out of interacting with your family? It clearly causes you emotional distress. I know it's just for the holidays, but you should limit your exposure to abusers, especially when there is no benefit to you. Clearly, there is void of empathy within your family which is mirrored in the limitless void of your cousins desire for attention. The use of the word, manipulation, is a projection and a deflection. It turns a valid criticism and a serious discussion into a blame game with the five year old holding the short stick. The last time I was home was in July and I knew in my heart that I never wanted to go back again. It was like being in a bizarre alternate universe of crazy with my father at the center. My bother and sister are 9 and 7, but they are already lost. I can sense how they have been abused, manipulated and brainwashed. I would be very surprised if they don't also start acting out in full rebellion in five years. I can't be a part of it, but that's a decision for my own sanity. You must decide what is best for you. I don't think you are asking the right questions at the end of your post, so my response to them would not be fruitful. I'm glad that you feel better getting these thoughts off your chest. 1
jonschnee Posted December 31, 2014 Author Posted December 31, 2014 I want to start out by saying I am really thankful for your reply. For the compassion you extended to me. thank you man:) I find your ability to interact with a five year old, using patience that all other adults in her life are lacking, very heroic. Well, you know, I don't know if my attempt to play with my little cousin was heroic in any way. It wasn't hard for me to approach her, and I didn't feel any anxiety I usually associate with being heroic. This time I felt pretty comfortable because I was roaming around the house during the party and I just saw my cousin sobbing so I asked what's up. I suspect I wasn't sitting at the table at that moment because I didn't feel like doing that. (dying emotionally sitting in silence with my family.) I'd much rather look busy and help bring some food from the garage than sit in silence with my aunts and uncles. I have such a hard time connecting with them. Part of it might be the age difference, but I'm just not interested in what they are talking about. Or if it's something I care about I know that if I shared my believes they wouldn't feel comfortable talking with me because I'm so radical in my beliefs. What are you getting out of interacting with my family? Safety. I just can't imagine not going to those parties while I'm here with them. (but you don't need to be here with them)Actually this year I was thinking, what if I just don't come over for Christmas next year. I can come up with an excuse. It might be just the distance. Or money, I won't be able to afford the trip. or something.I think I'm afraid of spending Christmas alone. (you can spend it with friends, people; you won't be alone) I think I still want to have my father around. Holidays is the only time I near him. If I don't see him on Christmas, I won't see him at all. (that's not true, you can still see each other some time during the year. in it would actually be better, because there would be just you and him.) you should limit your exposure to abusers Well, about that. I don't feel I'm being abused by them anymore because I built a wall between me and them and I try to maintain my boundaries. I don't tolerate them crossing my boundaries, to the point that if I feel uncomfortable talking with them on the phone I just hang up.But, this in effect means I have no true relationships with them, and I can't be honest. Because if I am honest I tend to be hostile towards them. I am aware I could express my needs in a more empathetic way and when I see them saying some hurtful stuff I could try to engage in an empathetic dialogue with them. But I'd rather not speak that ask for clarifications on their part.I feel so much anger and sadness when I'm around them.. Just living in the same house as them makes me feel worse than I usually do. My sensitivity to the things that I need and I'm not getting gets amplified so much and I'm overwhelmed with things that don't bother me when I'm living on my own.I'm angry with them. I see their flaws. I want them to be different, to nurture me. I'm angry that they don't help me fulfill my needs. I judge them. I hear myself saying hurtful things to them. judgement like: "they are not nice to each other, things they say to each other are so nasty." "They don't want to empathize with me." "They hold irrational beliefs." "They are so silly." "They are like sad children." I don't think you are asking the right questions at the end of your post You know, I think they are kind of important issues if I want to be parent one day but they are not that important right now. I think that by asking those questions I was in a way asking you for a permission to feel what I felt when I saw my little cousin crying. I felt enraged and sad but my parents said these feelings were misplaced and useless (because the child was just trying to manipulate us). And I was angry at them for saying that.. 1
hannahbanana Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 1. do you think you should always react when you see a child crying? is that healthy for them and for you? 2. have you ever come across a child that is manipulative (in a bad, evil, selfish way) ? I feel better just by writing all this down, but I would like to hear your answers to my questions anyway. Thank you people. I feel so bad about that interaction you wrote down, and I'm sorry you're faced with these painful feelings. I know it hurts me to imagine people saying children are evil manipulators, so it must be pretty bad for it to be someone close to you saying that. I'm not sure about the answer to number one, since I have little experience with caring for children. My instinct says that I would want to be there for a child who is crying. Even if I may not be able to make it all better, or if it's better for the child to handle the problem herself, I would at least want them to know I am there for them to talk to about whatever is wrong. I wouldn't necessarily need to DO anything, I'd just want to be there, for their own reassurance. For the second question, I don't doubt that there are manipulative children, because there are manipulative adults. It's sad to say, but if you are raised by a manipulative person, or manipulation is the only way to get your needs met as a child, then it doesn't exactly surprise me. Are your aunt and/or uncle manipulative people? From your story, it seemed like your little cousin is lonely and doesn't get much attention. She may just be doing everything she can to get attention (which, at her age, is probably often needed). There may be other reasons why she would be manipulative that I can't think of, but the bottom line of what I'm thinking is that if she IS manipulative, there is a reason. Children are not simply born "evil." But maybe it is difficult for your family to admit that they are poor role models for her, and are avoiding the manipulative behavior that they themselves display.
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