TheSchoolofAthens Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 I've gone to these conferences and events lately hosted by an organization called "Students for Liberty." After going to several of these events, I've discovered how leftist it is. But what is weird to me is that it is under the guise of liberty and libertarianism. There are other children organizations that have tables at such events, like the "Alliance of the Libertarian Left" and "Students for a Stateless Society."I've had conversations with many of these people on facebook and I've wanted to blow my brains out. The feminism and racism is horrible! I am just so confused by this left libertarian thing and why its starting to grow in popularity. Rothbard has some good things to say about left libertarianism, I will attach a picture here, but I want to hear other peoples thoughts and opinions on left libertarianism.
TheAuger Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 The popularity arises because many young lefties were tooled by Occupy and Obama, and they finally realize not every-single social problem requires a state-solution -- but culturally they're not Tea Party or Ron Paul material, so perhaps they've turned to Konkin and others. I've studied and taught political history, political philosophy, and political thought for a very long time, and I can tell you that the left-right paradigm is not more than about 150 years old, and it emerges simultaneously with Marxism and the First International. The truth is that both left wing politics and right wing politics swim in the sacred waters of statism..."With what shall the state concern itself, and which policies shall be supported and enforced?"...Meanwhile, the real power dichotomy -- the state versus everyone else, is not addressed nor acknowledged. "Left and right" are two wings of the same carrion bird -- a false construct. Left-libertarianism finally got around to Agorism and counter-economics, but there is nothing intrinsic that makes these concepts "left" (in the way that anarcho-syndicalism is clearly "left"). 2
J. D. Stembal Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Leftist libertarian groups are analogous to groups like Women Against Feminism. They all want to have a viable platform for injecting the central Marxist ideologies into the opposing movement on the sly, seeing that their previous platform is beginning to lose traction in popular sentiment. 2
TheSchoolofAthens Posted December 31, 2014 Author Posted December 31, 2014 The popularity arises because many young lefties were tooled by Occupy and Obama, and they finally realize not every-single social problem requires a state-solution -- but culturally they're not Tea Party or Ron Paul material, so perhaps they've turned to Konkin and others. I've studied and taught political history, political philosophy, and political thought for a very long time, and I can tell you that the left-right paradigm is not more than about 150 years old, and it emerges simultaneously with Marxism and the First International. The truth is that both left wing politics and right wing politics swim in the sacred waters of statism..."With what shall the state concern itself, and which policies shall be supported and enforced?"...Meanwhile, the real power dichotomy -- the state versus everyone else, is not addressed nor acknowledged. "Left and right" are two wings of the same carrion bird -- a false construct. Left-libertarianism finally got around to Agorism and counter-economics, but there is nothing intrinsic that makes these concepts "left" (in the way that anarcho-syndicalism is clearly "left"). I like how you mention the false dichotomy. See, it amazes me that they call themselves "left" libertarians when to be a libertarian just means you are against the state, and thus against the left and right dichotomy.
PatrickC Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 I've had some experience of Students of Liberty and I think in fairness it comes down to the degree to which leftist ideology has become so inculcated into the hearts and minds of many young people. Mostly coming from an effect of public school and the MSM. ETU also rightly points out that this has always been the end game for (cultural) Marxists. Getting opposing views mired and bogged down in their left speak. That said, being racist and/or sexist are irrational positions to take. I just don't think they deserve the kind of prominence they get. Mind you, if they wanted to be consistent, then perhaps they could concentrate their efforts on objecting to the mainstream misandry of men and bigotry directed at white people. But hey, we were discussing why they were leftist minded. 1
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 "Libertarian socialist" sounds nicer than "communist".
shirgall Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 The dichotomy I see is related to priorities. When I was a membership director of a Libertarian political party, the "left" libertarians were about "legalize everything" and the "right" libertarians were about "US out of economics". Most of the time they were compatible, but there was an inevitable schism between what was called "ex-republicans" and "ex-democrats".
BaylorPRSer Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Here's Chomsky talking about it. If you want more insight another place to look is Proudhon. There were several letters exchanged between he and Bastiat, mainly debating the nature of property and interest. Left-libs I talk to seem rather bigoted toward Anarcho-Capitalists. They seem to think we want workers to suffer in the workplace and that we unknowingly advocate corporate tyranny and we are thus not real anarchists. I would counter by saying we oppose all forms of coercion, including the coercion involved in preventing private ownership of the means of production. Libertarian socialists are free to voluntarily submit themselves to whatever coercion they think would allow their society to function. If they would for the love of god crack open a book by an Austrian economist, they'd know this isn't a good idea, but whatever. 2
TheSchoolofAthens Posted December 31, 2014 Author Posted December 31, 2014 Thank you all for your thoughts! I am going to the international SFL conference in Washington DC, so I hope to meet some rational people out of the hundreds that will be there. I know of one ancap who will be there that I actually met through an online class a year or so ago. So there are some great people involved in the movement, but the school chapters in Texas have been horribly overrun with leftists. The president of one of the chapters is a feminist and a lover of race baiting. This shows two things to me. 1) Society is sick and I am happy to be excluded from it so long as I am the healthy one, and 2) As a couple people have mentioned, the left is always looking for new platforms to speak through once the older platforms fail. EDIT: someone told me that I wasn't a real anarchist because I don't believe that patriarchy exists in America
PatrickC Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 If you PM me Nicholas I can put you in contact with one of the SFL admin I know (from the boards), if you like. That said I have no idea if he will be actually attending this particular conference of course. But a potentially useful contact and ally all the same I think. Also, I think going there with an open (as opposed to a slutty leftist) mind is entirely appropriate. I hope you have fun all the same.
TheSchoolofAthens Posted December 31, 2014 Author Posted December 31, 2014 If you PM me Nicholas I can put you in contact with one of the SFL admin I know (from the boards), if you like. That said I have no idea if he will be actually attending this particular conference of course. But a potentially useful contact and ally all the same I think. Also, I think going there with an open (as opposed to a slutty leftist) mind is entirely appropriate. I hope you have fun all the same. What? There is an admin on here with SFL? That is pretty cool actually. I wouldn't mind at all getting in contact with him, I'd appreciate it! I've made my fair share of enemies in the local organization due to my opposition to their leftism, but as I've said I've met some good people that have made the experience worth it. I look forward to meeting some more rational people, as this is an international convention and that goes far beyond just the Texas region.
shirgall Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 Many people use reason and evidence to come to valid conclusions in ONE area - but then completely stop their intellectual/emotional journey. It doesn't help that when you seek out groups that many in the group like to categorize you into one such area immediately. For example, I got classified as a "drug legalization" libertarian by the folks in Oregon's party because of the people with whom I came into the party. This despite I really had the path that was totally different (I was part of the early Internet and the gun culture of the 80s and 90s). By background I was actually more of the economic libertarian, I was just more into universalization then than most. People put me in a slot anyway. Imagine their surprise when, as a member of the judicial committee, I didn't rule on factional lines but rather on the merits! They eventually made me parliamentarian until I moved out of the state. I've still got a loin of a sacred cow in the freezer, waiting for BBQ season. 1
TheSchoolofAthens Posted December 31, 2014 Author Posted December 31, 2014 Many people use reason and evidence to come to valid conclusions in ONE area - but then completely stop their intellectual/emotional journey. So you get liberal atheists, evangelical christian libertarians, feminist atheists/libertarians, racist atheists/libertarians, people who are just rejecting any and all authority whether it be god, the state or general cultural norms - and all the people who normalize child abuse. Just because somebody agrees with a single conclusion that you have reasoned to be valid - doesn't mean they have decided to use reason and evidence as a standard in their lives. Applying the standard of reasoning from first principles and looking for evidence leads to the slaughter of many personal sacred cows. That is very very tough - but also essential in moving the human race forward. My father is the liberal atheist, or statetheist as I like to say. Man oh man, in the YAL club we had on campus, the christian conservatives interested in libertarianism were initially against legalization of drugs because their bodies were God's bodies. You worded what I've been feeling and thinking perfectly. People lack first principles and that makes it incredibly hard for me to make friends, even within these libertarian groups. I have myself, my girlfriend and some "friends" that I keep in touch with and make jokes with every now and then, but I've cut off most of my relationships because I wasn't happy with them - the lack of depth, intellectual immaturity, etc. Good reason for me to be more active on these forums and meet others who follow first principles. I'll stay positive, I'm very thankful with who I do have and I don't feel like I need anyone else, but I know there are others out there and this community is proof of it.
TheSchoolofAthens Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 If Jeff Tucker a left libertarian? That is a good question. He may be, though he happily identifies as an anarchist. If he is to be labeled leftist in any way, it would perhaps be his views on what are seen as social issues, for example, is he a feminist? There would need to be some sources to back up the accusation though.
BaylorPRSer Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 He seems highly sympathetic to left libertarians.
tasmlab Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 If Jeff Tucker a left libertarian? Used to be editor at mises.org and LRC. Sounds pretty an cap to me. He does posit on "humanitarian" libertarians vs. "brutalists", favoring the perspective that freedom allows people to flourish instead of just griping about being taxed. Something like that. On left libertarianism, I think theoretically it could function within anarcho capitalism. If people wanted to wall off a piece of land and not use currency they wouldn't be starting a government or violating the NAP or anything. I'm not sure they would do very well and would probably want money eventually if only to buy stuff from the surrounding an caps (to be known as in the future as simply "folks").
BaylorPRSer Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 JT wrote a piece the other day saying his New Year's Resolution was to "take back the word 'liberal'". Why he cares at all about that is beyond me. I get that classical liberalism is different than liberals today, I just don't see how it has any bearing on setting us free.
TheSchoolofAthens Posted January 6, 2015 Author Posted January 6, 2015 I've heard him speak at a conference and I was so happy to have the privilege to listen to him live and even talk to him for a bit after. In response to "is he a left libertarian?" and to clarify my own knowledge of him, he is an anarcho capitalist, a classical liberal, etc. The only thing about Tucker that may be somewhat leftist is perhaps being sympathetic to leftist causes such as feminism, social justice, etc. But again, that would need sources or something to back it up.
TheSchoolofAthens Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 I was just called a racist on facebook by the president of an SFL chapter. What was my crime? I asked for evidence of institutionalized racism.
shirgall Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I was just called a racist on facebook by the president of an SFL chapter. What was my crime? I asked for evidence of institutionalized racism. Yeah, "the evidence is obvious therefore there's something wrong with you" attack. That tactic is pure Alinsky. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals
BaylorPRSer Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I've encountered race-baiting libertarian lefties involved with SFL as well. It's frustrating. 1
TheSchoolofAthens Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 Yeah, "the evidence is obvious therefore there's something wrong with you" attack. That tactic is pure Alinsky. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals Oh God, that is Alinsky? SFL recommends Alinsky. I remember the Denton president telling me he loves Alinsky.
PatrickC Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Yes, I see all this as the left having taken the higher moral ground with decidedly poor arguments. Culturally we are so devoid of rational ethics that the lefts take on them can often seem as the most reasonable to those without any philosophical grounding. To the fanatics, you merely have to change the identity around from black to white or man to woman to point out the inconsistencies. Not that they will accept them, but at least you will know how intellectually dishonest they really are. 1
TheSchoolofAthens Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 Yes, I see all this as the left having taken the higher moral ground with decidedly poor arguments. Culturally we are so devoid of rational ethics that the lefts take on them can often seem as the most reasonable to those without any philosophical grounding. To the fanatics, you merely have to change the identity around from black to white or man to woman to point out the inconsistencies. Not that they will accept them, but at least you will know how intellectually dishonest they really are. Yes, my girlfriend is an Iranian immigrant who came to the US when she was 4. She was opposing this one guy who was saying racism doesn't exist against white people - and that apparently white people are oppressors - and he simply ignored the fact that a middle eastern female immigrant was defending us "white oppressors." He outright ignored her by making comments like "oh look at all these white males around me" when she was directly in front of him siding with reason and rationality. 1
shirgall Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 To the fanatics, you merely have to change the identity around from black to white or man to woman to point out the inconsistencies. Not that they will accept them, but at least you will know how intellectually dishonest they really are. A missing factual and ethical underpinning is a minor problem that's easily overcome with the Tinkerbell effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinkerbell_effect Make it so!
TheSchoolofAthens Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 I find this rule disgusting "“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions"Some of these members tried to break up me and my girlfriend, cutting off my support.
luxfelix Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I find this rule disgusting "“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions" Some of these members tried to break up me and my girlfriend, cutting off my support. ... Sounds like some middle school scheme/drama... Did you call them out on it or ignore them or something?
shirgall Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 ... Sounds like some middle school scheme/drama... Did you call them out on it or ignore them or something? Yeah, the defense against Alinsky attacks is to name the tactic for what it is and hold people to their own supposed standards.
TheSchoolofAthens Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 Oh it was most definitely childish and immature. This two girls got my girlfriends attention, one began to kiss my girlfriend on her hand as the other girl told her to kiss my girlfriend on the face, my girlfriend told her to stop and the other girl told her friend to keep kissing her. The sickening part is the fact that the girl who was kissing her made direct eye contact with me as she kissed my girlfriends hand, she was trying to destroy me. I would always call them out, in person and on facebook. I knew that these irrational people could not be changed, but hopefully some other people in the organization would see how flawed their logic is and how corrupt their character is.
luxfelix Posted January 10, 2015 Posted January 10, 2015 I knew that these irrational people could not be changed, but hopefully some other people in the organization would see how flawed their logic is and how corrupt their character is. On that note, something mentioned in this video about children racing to the lowest common denominator in horizontal structures (as in daycare/schooling) seems to indicate that these tactics really come from earlier trauma.
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