Was I wrong?

[kahvi]

I was wanting to get a few opinions on this. I recently came across a Facebook post that featured a 3 year-old asleep on the dining room chair. The poster commented that he had told his son that he couldn't leave the table until he had eaten all his food. A few pointed out how cute the child looked, curled up on the chair, but I stated,"Trying to force a child to eat who is clearly not hungry?" I should add that I don't know these parents. Obviously, this statement pissed them off as well as a few other of their friends and they all commented back about how the boy's mom always gives her son healthy portions, he's one of the healthiest kids they know, that the boy typically doesn't eat his food but asks for more after dinner, and that i should mind my own business.

 

I was going to respond with parent imposed punishments versus natural consequences. I then realized that i had no idea how long they had made him sit there. It could have just been the end of dinner and he had been inordinately tired. I then thought about apologizing. What do you guys think about this issue? I think in the future I will think a few minutes before i just rattle off an opinion.

[AynRand]

I think you were absolutely correct in what you did. Any child that has been left on a dining room chair for so long that he can fall asleep is definitively being raised by horrible parents, and in my mind that constitutes child abuse. 

 

I am appalled that their are people who can witness the child asleep to avoid eating unwanted food who will do nothing to help intervene or say something, and instead will comment on "how cute the child is". These people should focus on what is best for the child not what looks the cutest.

 

As for the parents claiming they are doing the best for their child is obviously not true. I have found that bad parents will say anything to avoid facing the truth that alternative ways to parent are far superior than "lets just have our child sleep on the chair for the night".

[WasatchMan]

I don't think you were wrong in the slightest. In fact, I applaud your bravery.

 

Think of what the parent who posts a picture like that is doing. They are trying to make their actions seem acceptable by putting it out to their community in a braggadocios/comedic manner, inviting all the other guilty consciences to pile on with "how cute" and such. By pointing out what they were actually doing to their child, you were able to short circuit this, making it less likely other people will jump on the bandwagon of normalizing child abuse.

[neeeel]

Its hard to say without knowing the full story. 

 

But I find it funny how its seen as normal to force a child to sit at a table until they have eaten all their food. I doubt that the other commenters even ARE guilty consciences, to them its just how things are done, I guess they dont even think about it. 

 

It seems clear that a comment that can be seen as attacking them is not very useful though, as it immediately puts them on the defensive, and they will refuse to reconsider their position. Maybe saying something like " I used to absolutely hate it when my parents did that to me" , a statement of fact rather than a judgement, could be seen as less of an attack on them?

[kahvi]

Yeah, I suppose the fact that I don't know how long he had been lying there is irrelevant. The fact that they told him he couldn't leave the table is the troubling part. I would have told the child, who at 3 should be able to understand, that this will be his last chance to eat. If he doesn't eat his dinner and later asks for more food, I would remind him of what I had told him before dinner. That, to me, is a natural consequence. Not sure if I should bother posting that or not. Most people clearly speak a different parenting language than we do. I could turn this into a huge, flame storm or just let my already written thoughts speak for themselves.

True neeeel. I could have been a lot more diplomatic about it.

[MMX2010]

How often do you meet any of the parents face to face?  Not just the parents who posted the picture, but the other parents who commented about the picture?

[villagewisdom]

. . . .they all commented back about how the boy's mom always gives her son healthy portions, he's one of the healthiest kids they know, that the boy typically doesn't eat his food but asks for more after dinner, and that i should mind my own business.

 

 

I don't know about right or wrong. You did what you did. You wrote what you thought. I believe that is the purpose of "comments" on Facebook. 

The persons responding to your comment claim to be providing a healthy diet for the child. I submit that they are clearly not providing a healthy diet as they are not responding to the child's desire to eat more after dinner -- which is his stated preference. Perhaps he is craving comfort. Perhaps he really is hungry. Perhaps he is bored. They are clearly misinformed about what eating healthy really means and their child will suffer for it.  IMO

 

Here are my thoughts on the child sleeping in the chair and the comments regarding the health of the child's diet and the requests for food after dinner. In addition to the fact that they are not finding out why the child wants to eat when he does, clearly they do not understand that the child's body (and their's as well for that matter) are much smarter about what it needs, and when, than any parent will ever be. This is a current misunderstanding that is rampant in our society. We have diet "religion" everywhere. Eat this. Don't eat that. You're going to die if you eat this. You're going to get fat if you eat after X o'clock. This causes cancer and that causes diabetes and heart disease. Basically you (or your body) will be punished in some way for not obeying whatever the current "10 commandments" of food consumption happen to be. 

 

Making a child eat when they are clearly not hungry is just a manifestation of the same control technique used on the parent being passed on to the child. Making them eat certain things at certain times is also a control technique. It makes it very convenient for the parents when the children are on a schedule. However, it provides them no information about who their child is and what his needs might be regarding nourishment, be it mental, emotional or physical.  

 

We have segmented our lives into 3 square meals a day, or whatever the current USDA recommendation is that is supposed to be equivalent to a healthy diet. The current propaganda is the "food pyramid". Sorry, but the elephant in the room is that the USDA has decided what is best for everyone's body and has infiltrated every home via "Leave It To Beaver" and the like. There is no scientific proof that any diet or time of day is more beneficial than another. The recommended daily allowance of this or that, the recommended number of times to eat per day, the recommended kinds of food to eat and the recommended portions have become religious doctrine in the diet and health industry. Lots of money is being made from these supposed truths. Whatever someone else says is best is what we must have, or be punished by ill health and weight gain or lack of weight gain, or lack of muscle mass or whatever other bad thing that can happen to your body. 

 

The truth that I have determined with how my body works is that sometimes it needs more food and sometimes less. Sometimes it needs and wants food at one time and sometimes at a different time. Sometimes it wants one food and sometimes another. Sometimes it wants just one food and not a protein, starch and 2 vegetables. While I see the value of having a family meal as a tradition for getting together and having good conversation, the religious fervor surrounding what I eat, how much and when is clearly unhealthy for me and I argue for a large portion of the population. I no longer know what to eat or when. I simply eat whatever is put in front of me including what I put there myself. I eat for emotional reasons. I eat because I am bored. I eat because someone else expects me to eat what they have prepared. I have this nagging thought that I must eat breakfast. I have this nagging thought that I must eat lunch. And I have this nagging thought that I must eat dinner -- whether I am hungry at the time or not. And since I must eat everything on my plate, even if I am not hungry, I clearly overeat because of early childhood training and shaming. I've made huge progress over the last few months but still have a ways to go. Was I abused as a child? I don't know what to say about that. My mother read everything and listened to what the "experts" said. She was told that all of her children had to eat three times a day and certain times and certain amounts. She did her best to follow that doctrine of food religion. 

 

My prediction is that the child will grow up with an eating disorder just like the rest of humanity that has forgotten to listen to and respond to actual needs as opposed to needs that have been programmed into them. 

[FireMinstrel]

 

"I used to absolutely hate it when my parents did that to me"

That would definitely keep the masses from attacking you, but I'll bet you that NOBODY will reply.  They'll be just as uncomfortable, but they'll have no basis whatsoever to attack whoever says that.  So instead, they'll ignore it and hope it goes away.

It's sick, but a lot of parents will justify abuse because the child's reaction to it is "cute".  Like, "Oh, my little girl's being a drama queen, isn't that cute?"

[neeeel]

That would definitely keep the masses from attacking you, but I'll bet you that NOBODY will reply.  They'll be just as uncomfortable, but they'll have no basis whatsoever to attack whoever says that.  So instead, they'll ignore it and hope it goes away.

It's sick, but a lot of parents will justify abuse because the child's reaction to it is "cute".  Like, "Oh, my little girl's being a drama queen, isn't that cute?"

Possibly, but I imagine that at least some of them would remember when they hated it too, and possibly consider that thought. Its more likely to cause them consider something that they havent considered before, than if they feel they have to rise up in defense of themselves against an attack, which will cause them to hold tighter to their beliefs and justifications.

[kahvi]

Villagewisdom - That was so well put and I try to make our diet in our household as stress free as possible. I try to provide a variety of foods to my 2 year-old, but she is extremely picky. I try not to sweat it and focus on the big picture. Although we try to do some meal times together, she's more of a snacker and I feed her when she expresses hunger. She actually prefers nursing to all other foods right now.

 

There has been an update to the Facebook thread. A couple of my relatives have supported my post. One expressed the fact that I am a huge proponent of children's rights and that she didn't think i had a malicious intent. I went back on and apologized for my preachy tone, but reiterated that i think meal time should be enjoyable for everyone and that it shouldn't become a power struggle. Most importantly, and i can't believe I had forgotten this, my husband had experienced the exact same thing growing up and he has vivid and bitter memories of it. I said as much in my post.

 

The mother thanked me for apologizing, but said she's more concerned that her son eat healthy rather than have a good time.

 

She apparently isn't aware that stress is one of the biggest catalysts for an unhealthy life, both physically and psychologically. I didn't feel like reopening the discussion, though. So I let it drop.

[villagewisdom]

There is no nutritional substitute for mother's milk -- or the accompanying love, comfort and connection. There is absolutely nothing more nutritious in every way. I'm glad you are listening to her. 

 

So sad that the mother is teaching her child that having a good time is not acceptable behavior and that the only thing that matters is what she, the mother, wants. As you are likely aware, there are other ways to approach it besides my way or no way. 

 

I understand dropping the conversation. If you continue to hammer a point when there are no ears to hear, the message gets lost in the argument. There are some that will hear and understand if you just make your statement and let it drop. Also, good to hear that your family supports you. 

[kahvi]

That would definitely keep the masses from attacking you, but I'll bet you that NOBODY will reply. They'll be just as uncomfortable, but they'll have no basis whatsoever to attack whoever says that. So instead, they'll ignore it and hope it goes away.

It's sick, but a lot of parents will justify abuse because the child's reaction to it is "cute". Like, "Oh, my little girl's being a drama queen, isn't that cute?"

Since I wound up mentioning my husband's experience (Thanks for helping me to recall that, btw neeel), they did soften their tone. It is a great way to get people to empathize. I'm going to remember that tip next time I go into one of these conversations.

 

I told my husband about the exchange and he expounded on his memories of being made to sit at the table till sometimes midnight. It's the clearest memory of his step-dad (whom he thought was his real dad at the time. Another story altogether) It's what he remembers most when he thinks of his step-dad. His step-dad even went so far as to make him eat his cold, left-over dinner for breakfast the next morning. (This was before microwaves)

How often do you meet any of the parents face to face? Not just the parents who posted the picture, but the other parents who commented about the picture?

Never. I just have an aunt and a cousin whom are friends with the parents. I saw their post because they had tagged my cousin.

[MMX2010]

Never. I just have an aunt and a cousin whom are friends with the parents. I saw their post because they had tagged my cousin.

 

Alright.  As long as you didn't expect your post to change anyone's behavior, you did the right thing. 

 

Parents are almost never going to change their behavior because a total stranger objects to it.  So if you got frustrated or experienced self-doubt because they didn't change their behavior, your expectation of behavioral change was wrong. 

[kahvi]

It's sick, but a lot of parents will justify abuse because the child's reaction to it is "cute". Like, "Oh, my little girl's being a drama queen, isn't that cute?"

Yeah, it's disgusting. It's only cute when the child is safe and having fun, too.

 

Just saw another poster saying something to the effect of,"Too many mothers worry about being liked by their children and not about doing what's best for them."

 

To me, that's a false dichotomy. Why can't we have both? I understand being ok with your child being mad at you, but I think it's important that they like you. It kind of goes hand-in-hand with respect, love and trust.

[J. D. Stembal]

Its hard to say without knowing the full story. 

 

But I find it funny how its seen as normal to force a child to sit at a table until they have eaten all their food. I doubt that the other commenters even ARE guilty consciences, to them its just how things are done, I guess they dont even think about it. 

 

It seems clear that a comment that can be seen as attacking them is not very useful though, as it immediately puts them on the defensive, and they will refuse to reconsider their position. Maybe saying something like " I used to absolutely hate it when my parents did that to me" , a statement of fact rather than a judgement, could be seen as less of an attack on them?

 

I hated when my parents did this to me, but they successfully spun their behavior into making me believe it was for my own good and health (almost exactly how the parents responded on Facebook). This was years later but my best friend came over for dinner once and wouldn't eat any of the vegetables. My parents didn't make him sit at the table all night until he finished his vegetables. For years afterward, both of my parents would praise me for not being a picky eater like my friend. They didn't actually teach me to eat what I like, just what is put on my plate. This is a recipe for an eating disorder.

 

Only in recent years, have I been able to enforce my preferences with regard to food. I have found myself at social functions where the only thing I would eat is cheese and pepperoni. Everything else offered is loaded with carbs, which I usually avoid eating unless found in fresh fruit or vegetables. Everyone knows my diet has changed, and they can see that I've lost at least 45 pounds in the last three years, but they never ask me about my nutritional preferences when inviting me to their party. Nor do they ever offer any dish especially tailored for my needs, like you would for a vegan or vegetarian.

 

A couple of times, just after I changed my diet, I would bring my own food to a party when I knew there was already going to be enough food there, just not much I wished to eat. The hosts would always act dismayed that I brought my own food, especially if I brought enough to share with others. Once, I brought chocolate covered bacon, and it was an instant hit, disappearing in the first half hour. The hostess was pissed because she had made so much food for her guests and my bacon was the first thing eaten!

 

Now, I will eat before I go to a gathering or endure the event without eating. It's not very hard to resist the urge to eat when my metabolism is ketotic. I don't get ravenously hungry, or dizzy and distracted in a hypoglycemic state like I would eating the bulk of my calories in carbs. There are some days that I forget to eat because I'm simply not hungry. Intermittent fasting does wonders for eliminating abdominal body fat if you are male.

 

Kahvi, what you wrote on Facebook was brilliant, especially considering the parents' reaction. I'm disturbed that parents feel comfortable posting pictures publicly revealing the manner in which they are tormenting children. It's like they know their tactics are wrong and they are seeking social proofs to outwardly justify the bad parenting. Good on you!

[neeeel]

parent:  there are children in africa who would love this food!

 

me: well, why dont u just give it to them then

 

parent: *smack* dont be cheeky!

[Jonathan111]

I naturally hated canned asparagus. 

 

Imagine in your mind a leaf of iceberg lettuce with three or four spears of canned and heated asparagus and then a generous dollop of mayonnaise.  

 

Now imagine a seven-year-old defiantly sitting alone in a dark kitchen refusing to eat some stupid, evil concoction!

 

I was not allowed to leave the table until I had finished my dinner even though everyone was in bed.