I'm coming out

[OtherOtie]

as a Christian!

 

In one of the recent call in shows Stef made me feel much more safe being a Christian in a heavily atheist community (I know, how ironic). But yeah. I'm one of them Jesus freaks. Just thought I'd let y'all know.

[Ravate]

A man of good faith has nothing to fear in this community, it's just that nearly everything to a point of discretion is up for debate.

[NotDarkYet]

If you have children, what will your approach to religion be?

[OtherOtie]

If you have children, what will your approach to religion be?

 

That is a good question and one that I've thought about a lot. It would be one I'd think much more about when that time approaches.

 

On one hand I believe that there is a God and I want to impart the truth as I understand it to my children. On the other hand I do not want to impose my own conclusions on my children where they are sufficiently controversial and have huge world view implications.

 

I suppose I would be inclined to take a "sharing" approach. That is, I would not go out of my way to indoctrinate my children with Christian theology, but it would be inevitable that my child inquires into those particular beliefs. At which point I would offer what I believe (in an age-appropriate fashion) and explain my reasons behind thinking so. If they are curious, I would spend some time conversing about it. I would also strive to create a relationship wherein my child would feel free to disagree with me, especially on important matters, as I wouldn't want them to conform to what I believe out of fear of abandonment.

 

I want my children to be Christians but I believe that if God exists then indoctrination is unnecessary. I would be more concerned with teaching my child how to think so he or she can come to the right conclusions about reality. If the Christian God is at the end of that as I've found Him to be, then my child will arrive there also. If I'm wrong, then they have a better shot at arriving at the truth if I give them the right tools early on.

 

I do know that I think much of the Bible is not age appropriate and I can't see myself imposing those aspects on my child before they could handle them. If I brought them to church (if they wanted to go) I would want to make sure the sermons that they hear are appropriate.

 

Those are some of my thoughts, but I'm not close to being a parent, so I would probably have much more of a refined approach planned out if I saw children in my immediate future.

[AynRand]

Sorry but I just have to ask Do you believe others will burn in hell for not believing? If the answer is no then I guess I think that it's nice that you can find solace in your religion.

[prolix]

as a Christian!

 

In one of the recent call in shows Stef made me feel much more safe being a Christian in a heavily atheist community (I know, how ironic). But yeah. I'm one of them Jesus freaks. Just thought I'd let y'all know.

 

 

What was it about that show, what particular concept, made you decide to come out of the closet on this?

 

And I am curious, was it that you were unsure in general about your Christianity, and the podcast made you more comfortable being a christian in general. Or was it, as you said, that you were much more comfortable being a Christian in  this community, safe as you put it, but you have always been comfortable being a Christian? Furthermore, have you ever had a lapse in faith in the past?

[andkon]

Release the hounds lions!

[villagewisdom]

Hi. Pantheist here. Very vocal peaceful parent advocate. Started my own podcast through Stef's inspirational example. There are many, many other good things in this forum and so I would not let atheism get in the way of participating. Love the community here. 

[NotDarkYet]

Will you tell your child that they're going to hell if they don't accept Jesus?  

 

 

If you truly believe this kid will go to hell without Jesus, wouldn't it be abusive to not indoctrinate (or convince)  him early?  I mean, what's a little force compared to eternal burning and torture.

 

I know it sounds like I'm being facetious, I'm genuinely curious.

[OtherOtie]

Sorry but I just have to ask Do you believe others will burn in hell for not believing? If the answer is no then I guess I think that it's nice that you can find solace in your religion.

 

Sort of a loaded question. I think people will go to hell, but I don't think it's for not believing, I think people go to hell because they reject God. As Stef points out, there are some Christians who think that hell is the separation from God. I count myself as being among those. I think that separation from God is a truly terrible thing but I do not think it's an active torture involving literal burning. I don't want to debate this at the moment (we can do that some other time if you'd like!) but that's my answer if you're truly wondering what I think.

 

 

Will you tell your child that they're going to hell if they don't accept Jesus?  

 

 

If you truly believe this kid will go to hell without Jesus, wouldn't it be abusive to not indoctrinate (or convince)  him early?  I mean, what's a little force compared to eternal burning and torture.

 

I know it sounds like I'm being facetious, I'm genuinely curious.

 

No, that's fine. I would not tell them that (prior to a certain age) because first I don't think it's true (I think children who die do not go to hell) and second I don't think it's entirely age appropriate. I don't think it's a death threat as Stefan has put it (though I don't doubt that some religious people have used and phrased it as one) but I also think it's rather inappropriate for children to hear. There are adults who can barely comprehend an eternity of torment (I count myself one of those) so I would not want to burden my child with the thought that they or anyone might suffer for eternity. I would be more comfortable telling my child about the consequences of doing evil in general.

 

 

What was it about that show, what particular concept, made you decide to come out of the closet on this?

 

And I am curious, was it that you were unsure in general about your Christianity, and the podcast made you more comfortable being a christian in general. Or was it, as you said, that you were much more comfortable being a Christian in  this community, safe as you put it, but you have always been comfortable being a Christian? Furthermore, have you ever had a lapse in faith in the past?

 

I'm mostly kidding about coming out of the closet. I'm not too shy about it but I did feel somewhat awkward being a Christian in a community like this. The speech Stef gave just made me feel more welcome so I thought I'd share. I have lapses in faith all the time and go back and forth frequently about what is true. For the person who said something about finding solace in Christianity, that is only partially true. I find solace in Christianity but it is also a great burden and there are times where I'd rather be an atheist if I could bring myself to believe that there is no God.

[powder]

 

...I would be more concerned with teaching my child how to think so he or she can come to the right conclusions about reality. 

 

 

someone want to take this one? 

 

I would be up for a discussion of how you are able to process that whole theology thing.  I just had talk with some christian friends (I have a bunch of them) about some things that made them stare at me with a blank look, I'd like to get your take on them.  It fascinates me.  want to start a thread in religion section?  

[NotDarkYet]

Do you believe in Heaven, but not Hell?

[OtherOtie]

someone want to take this one? 

 

I would be up for a discussion of how you are able to process that whole theology thing.  I just had talk with some christian friends (I have a bunch of them) about some things that made them stare at me with a blank look, I'd like to get your take on them.  It fascinates me.  want to start a thread in religion section?  

 

Yeah, sure.

[NotDarkYet]

I'm genuinely curious.  It's not often I get to meet a Christian willing to discuss the rationality of their ideas.

 

What exactly do you mean when you say you're a "Jesus freak"?

 

What, exactly, do you believe?   Adam and Eve?  Water into wine?   Noah's Ark?

[OtherOtie]

I'm genuinely curious.  It's not often I get to meet a Christian willing to discuss the rationality of their ideas.

 

What exactly do you mean when you say you're a "Jesus freak"?

 

What, exactly, do you believe?   Adam and Eve?  Water into wine?   Noah's Ark?

 

Jesus freak thing was also a sort of joke.

 

I believe in both heaven and hell. I believe in the miracles of Jesus. Not sure what I think about Adam and Eve (sorry for copout answer). I think Noah's ark story was probably a local flood.

[NotDarkYet]

Keeping in mind that those stories originated at least 21 centuries ago, before Science, in an age of barbarism and superstition, where many opposing religions were born ...why are just those particular Christian stories believable to you?

 

Or is this really less about your thoughts on the matter, and more the fear of family/friends/community?

 

I understand the pressure to conform.  I grew up in a religious household too.  They teach you punish yourself for questioning the dogma.

[OtherOtie]

Keeping in mind that those stories originated at least 21 centuries ago, before Science, in an age of barbarism, where many many many opposing religions were born ...why are those particular stories believable to you?

 

Or is this really less about your thoughts on the matter, and more the fear of family/friends/community?

 

Not really the latter at all. I was raised Catholic (I'm not catholic anymore) but it was just a sort of formality. My family is not really religious. I don't have many Christian friends either.

 

To answer your first question, they are not inherently believable to me. If all I had was the Old Testament I probably would not believe it. I struggle with a lot of those stories even still. I am particularly stricken and convinced by the historicity of Jesus and it seems inescapable to me that he believed in the OT stories. So given that I am convinced that Jesus was the son of God, I sort of take the Old Testament "on faith" in a "I don't really understand a lot of this stuff but you have enough credibility with me that I'll take your word for it." Does that make sense?

 

Edit: To clarify I don't take the whole of Christianity on faith, I am convinced by arguments regarding Jesus' ressurection and that gives him a lot of credibility with me so I take his word on things that seem less plausible as a result.

[NotDarkYet]

With all do respect, the burden of proof is on you:

 

1) What is God, and why does she exist?

 

2) Why do you believe Jesus was the son of a God?   (What does it mean to be the "son" of a God anyway?)

 

3) If there are things in the Bible that false, why can't the Jesus-Is-Magic bit also be false?

 

4) And why don't you believe in the tales of magical humans from thousands of other religions?  Did you investigate them and come to the conclusion that the Jesus story was rational?  

 

5) Do you find it rather coincidental that the one true religion happened to be one taught to you?

 

6) You believe in Hell. So, wouldn't not convincing your child of Christianity be literally the most abusive thing you could do in the long run?  

[Libertus]

What evidence do you have that anything in the bible is the truth? You're going to teach your kids to not believe anything without evidence, right? See the contradiction?

[endostate]

Translated for clarity :

I'm coming out

as a Santa believer!

In one of the recent call in shows Stef made me feel much more safe being a Santa believer in a heavily rational community (I know, how ironic). But yeah. I'm one of them Santa freaks. Just thought I'd let y'all know.

 

If you have children, what will your approach to Santa stories be?

That is a good question and one that I've thought about a lot. It would be one I'd think much more about when that time approaches.

On one hand I believe that there is a Santa and I want to impart the truth as I understand it to my children. On the other hand I do not want to impose my own conclusions on my children where they are sufficiently controversial and have huge world view implications.

I suppose I would be inclined to take a "sharing" approach. That is, I would not go out of my way to indoctrinate my children with Santa stories, but it would be inevitable that my child inquires into those particular beliefs. At which point I would offer what I believe (in an age-appropriate fashion) and explain my reasons behind thinking so. If they are curious, I would spend some time conversing about it. I would also strive to create a relationship wherein my child would feel free to disagree with me, especially on important matters, as I wouldn't want them to conform to what I believe out of fear of abandonment.

I want my children to be Santa believers but I believe that if Santa exists then indoctrination is unnecessary. I would be more concerned with teaching my child how to think so he or she can come to the right conclusions about reality. If the Santa from the stories is at the end of that as I've found him to be, then my child will arrive there also. If I'm wrong, then they have a better shot at arriving at the truth if I give them the right tools early on.

I do know that I think much of the story of elf enslavement is not age appropriate and I can't see myself imposing those aspects on my child before they could handle them. If I brought them to Santa Club (if they wanted to go) I would want to make sure the songs that they hear are appropriate.

Those are some of my thoughts, but I'm not close to being a parent, so I would probably have much more of a refined approach planned out if I saw children in my immediate future.
 

Sorry but I just have to ask Do you be denied presents for not believing? If the answer is no then I guess I think that it's nice that you can find solace in your Santa belief.

Sort of a loaded question. I think people will be denied presents, but I don't think it's for not believing, I think people get denied presents because they reject Santa. As Stef points out, there are some Santa fans who think that being denied presents is the separation from Santa. I count myself as being among those. I think that separation from Santa is a truly terrible thing but I do not think it's an active torture involving literal denial of presents. I don't want to debate this at the moment (we can do that some other time if you'd like!) but that's my answer if you're truly wondering what I think.
 

Will you tell your child that they're getting no presents if they don't accept Santa?
If you truly believe this kid will be denied presents without Santa, wouldn't it be abusive to not indoctrinate (or convince)  him early?  I mean, what's a little force compared to no presents.
I know it sounds like I'm being facetious, I'm genuinely curious.

No, that's fine. I would not tell them that (prior to a certain age) because first I don't think it's true (I think children who are bad do not get denied presents) and second I don't think it's entirely age appropriate. I don't think it's a denial of presents threat as Stefan has put it (though I don't doubt that some Santa story fans have used and phrased it as one) but I also think it's rather inappropriate for children to hear. There are adults who can barely comprehend an eternity of no presents (I count myself one of those) so I would not want to burden my child with the thought that they or anyone might be denied presents for eternity. I would be more comfortable telling my child about the consequences of not believing in general.
 

What was it about that show, what particular concept, made you decide to come out of the closet on this?
And I am curious, was it that you were unsure in general about your belief in Santa, and the podcast made you more comfortable being a Santa believer in general. Or was it, as you said, that you were much more comfortable being a Santa believer in  this community, safe as you put it, but you have always been comfortable being a Santa believer? Furthermore, have you ever had a lapse in faith in the past?

I'm mostly kidding about coming out of the closet. I'm not too shy about it but I did feel somewhat awkward being a Santa believer in a community like this. The speech Stef gave just made me feel more welcome so I thought I'd share. I have lapses in faith all the time and go back and forth frequently about what is true. For the person who said something about finding solace in Santa bringing gifts, that is only partially true. I find solace in Santa stories but it is also a great burden and there are times where I'd rather be rational if I could bring myself to believe that there is no Santa.
 

I'm genuinely curious.  It's not often I get to meet a Santa believer willing to discuss the rationality of their ideas.
What exactly do you mean when you say you're a "Santa freak"?
What, exactly, do you believe?   Elves?  Going down chimneys?   Flying reindeer?

Santa freak thing was also a sort of joke.

I believe in both magically getting presents and being denied presents. I believe in the magic of Santa. Not sure what I think about Rudolph and Frosty (sorry for copout answer). I think the flying reindeer story was probably a local tornado.
 

Keeping in mind that those stories originated centuries ago, before Science, in an age of barbarism, where many many many opposing fun stories were born ...why are those particular stories believable to you?
Or is this really less about your thoughts on the matter, and more the fear of family/friends/community?

Not really the latter at all. I was raised believing in St. Nick but it was just a sort of formality. My family is not really into Santa. I don't have many Santa believing friends either.

To answer your first question, they are not inherently believable to me. If all I had was the poem "A Visit From St. Nicholas" I probably would not believe it. I struggle with a lot of those stories even still. I am particularly stricken and convinced by the historicity of Rudolph and it seems inescapable to me that he believed in the poem. So given that I am convinced that Rudolph was the reindeer of Santa, I sort of take the old poems "on faith" in a "I don't really understand a lot of this stuff but you have enough credibility with me that I'll take your word for it." Does that make sense?

Edit: To clarify I don't take the whole of the story of Santa on faith, I am convinced by arguments regarding Rudolphs' magic and that gives him a lot of credibility with me so I take his word on things that seem less plausible as a result.
 

[adamNJ]

as a Christian!

 

In one of the recent call in shows Stef made me feel much more safe being a Christian in a heavily atheist community (I know, how ironic). But yeah. I'm one of them Jesus freaks. Just thought I'd let y'all know.

 

Respect

[WasatchMan]

You do realize this show promotes philosophy, which is fundamentally antithetical to superstitious belief systems?

 

Do you think anyone would care if a flat earther feels welcome in a physics conference?

[shirgall]

You do realize this show promotes philosophy, which is fundamentally antithetical to superstitious belief systems?

 

Do you think anyone would care if a flat earther feels welcome in a physics conference?

 

Who benefits when you berate someone that's willing to listen and share their experiences?

[sagiquarius]

 So, what do you really want out of this discussion? 

I ask because you've admitted you struggle with this belief.  This thread isn't about you "coming out", this thread is about you looking for help in resolving the conflict you've stated above.  Come on, you know exactly to whom you're presenting yourself right now and you know you're going to be challenged or asked to engage in discussions of greater depth then you're likely to find outside of this community. 

 

Some follow-up questions, if you don't mind:

 

What are you without god?

Why do you need to believe there is a god vs no god?

How does your perspective of your life, the world, and the universe change if there is no god?

[Jer]

Hi Other,

Welcome. Do you accept the validity of the Non Aggression Principle?

[Level_One]

Shun the non-non-believer! Ye shall kneel before our lack of gods or by Dawrin be purged!

But seriously, you're welcome here

[WasatchMan]

Who benefits when you berate someone that's willing to listen and share their experiences?

 

Who benefits from pretending that believing in superstition is acceptable in adult conversations?

[Level_One]

Who benefits from pretending that believing in superstition is acceptable in adult conversations?

By alienating a man with an opposing opinion you sabotage any possibility of changing his mind. 

 

That can not be called an "adult" conversation, as that is no conversation at all.

[WasatchMan]

By alienating a man with an opposing opinion you sabotage any possibility of changing his mind. 

 

That can not be called an "adult" conversation, as that is no conversation at all.

 

By pretending that nonsense is an conversation, you sabotage logic.

[sagiquarius]

Wow, you two.  This is the point where I stop watching this thread.

 

  I mean, seriously, read back at what the both of you are writing.  I'd rather have a conversation about nonsense than listen to this passive-aggressive crap.  Back away and take it out of the thread in PM.  And FFS, don't respond to me in this thread - take it up in PM!

 

Unsubscribed, thumbs down, would not recommend.

[Ravate]

Perhaps this is why this topic is titled "Coming Out".

It is obvious by the amount of disrespect for his belief, that we "philosophers" are not being very gracious hosts for this person.

Everyone has the right to express their own beliefs in their own way without interference from any other person.

Therefore basing this off what I have read here, none of you have any better ideas about this other than paranoid skepticism.

If anyone would like to have a real, and authentic discussion about this then I would suggest contacting him personally.

After all, you should never join a debate without being willing to change your own view on the topic being argued.

Otherwise you are wasting your time.

 

I have noticed that some of you seem genuinely interested to learn exactly what his beliefs are, have you ever considered attending a church?

You will often discover that the best way to see both sides of the great question is to take part in all aspects of it, rather than the dogmatic view of one side or the other.

[shirgall]

Who benefits from pretending that believing in superstition is acceptable in adult conversations?

 

We can benefit plenty if philosophical or scientific arguments are made without relying on religion. Do we toss out Galileo's telescope because he was a Christian? Let's judge statements on the merits, and not the unsaid.

[Libertus]

I think sagiquarius hit the nail right on the head. Let's stop pretending. What are you hoping to accomplish by telling a group of atheists that you're a Christian? Validation? Conflict? Is your inner atheist trying to trick you?

 

Please, be honest, if not to yourself, at least with us.

[OtherOtie]

I think sagiquarius hit the nail right on the head. Let's stop pretending. What are you hoping to accomplish by telling a group of atheists that you're a Christian? Validation? Conflict? Is your inner atheist trying to trick you?

 

Please, be honest, if not to yourself, at least with us.

 

It makes me feel more honest with you all. I didn't like not being clear about that. I'm not the most active member of this community anyway, but I post here on occasion and I'm an active FDR listener. I feel more honest being open about what I believe. If some of you think I'm anti-philosophical, an idiot, a fool, or whatever else, that's fine with me.

 

Look, if I'm any or all of those things, I still play an important role for philosophy. Even the guilty have the right to an attorney. I am committed to both Christianity and philosophy. If you think those two are completely incompatible, I am not going to try to change your view on that. At the very least at least Christianity will get a fair defense and you'll know whether it's rational to disregard it.

 

I am actually shocked at the amount of hostility some of you have displayed in this thread. I would expect that from some place like /r/atheism, but not this community. I am glad and thankful that the majority of you have been charitable towards me.

 

I don't really care to debate any one in this thread. Not that I'm not open to a debate, but I've had my fair share of internet arguments and it ends up being frustrating for me, not because I don't enjoy bringing arguments to bear on my world view, but because it ends up being me versus five or more other people talking past one another. I know some of you know what that's like. If you actually want to debate me or question me for honest reasons, please PM me and we can arrange to have a skype conversation or make a new thread with some ground rules.

 So, what do you really want out of this discussion? 

 

I ask because you've admitted you struggle with this belief.  This thread isn't about you "coming out", this thread is about you looking for help in resolving the conflict you've stated above.  Come on, you know exactly to whom you're presenting yourself right now and you know you're going to be challenged or asked to engage in discussions of greater depth then you're likely to find outside of this community. 

 

Some follow-up questions, if you don't mind:

 

What are you without god?

Why do you need to believe there is a god vs no god?

How does your perspective of your life, the world, and the universe change if there is no god?

 

I understand why you would think that but I disagree. This thread really was about coming out. I am immersed in enough Christianity vs atheism (philosophy of religion is sort of my thing) and really don't need much more of it. I will answer your questions but if you want to get into a back and forth about it we can do so privately or make another thread.

 

1. I don't even know what I am with God. I'm very interested in self knowledge, which is probably the main reason I am attracted to FDR. I'll be honest and say I don't know what I am at this stage in general. just made an appointment with a therapist, so maybe I will have a better answer for you in a year's time (I hope so!)

 

2. I don't feel that I *need* to believe either way. I am attracted to both world views for different reasons. I'm sure the Catholic church did some damage to me when I was younger, but I didn't spend too much time exposed to religious indoctrination. I'm not saying that there isn't a good answer to your question, I just don't know what it is if it exists. Hope to find that out in therapy.

 

3. I think that if the Christian God exists, my life has a fundamentally different purpose than if there is no God. If Jesus is God incarnate then my life is fundamentally about knowing him and making him known. If Jesus is some wackjob, or a liar, or a myth, well then I think things become a great deal more relativistic. Not that reality itself becomes relative, but I think *purpose* certainly does. There is a certain freedom in being able to forge your own purpose in a universe which is not endowed by purpose in virtue of its creator's intent. If I were to become an atheist I would have to think a lot more about what it is you asked, but I think for all practical purposes, my life would not change that much. I would still enjoy the things I enjoy (I guess save for the religious things) and I would still pursue philosophy (albeit a different route) and I would still be interested in relationships and self knowledge and all of the things we love here at FDR.

[J. D. Stembal]

When I was fourteen, I believed in alien visitors from another galaxy. Thank you, Chris Carter. I read a book (forgot the name) and did a report on the probability of space faring intelligent life in the universe other than humans. The odds are miniscule that all these factors are true that it may as well be considered untrue. Time will tell if we meet space faring intelligent life or not.

 

When I was eighteen, I convinced myself that astral travel and remote sensing was possible. I spent a few years in college researching it and practicing and I successfully learned how to self-hypnotize or fall asleep at any hour of the day. As for astral travel, I did not accomplish it.

 

I have never believed in the existence of an omniscient or omnipotent deity.

 

I humbly suggest that you subject your religious views to the same level of rigorous research and testing.

 

I am actually shocked at the amount of hostility some of you have displayed in this thread. I would expect that from some place like /r/atheism, but not this community. I am glad and thankful that the majority of you have been charitable towards me.

 

I have not seen any hostility directed at you, but at other members contributing to your thread. It's our pleasure and privilege to pose you with challenging questions. If we make you feel uncomfortable with our questions, please take some time to reflect on your emotions and then get back to us.

 

You are the one who created the thread, so here are some questions of my own. What kind of reception did you expect from a philosophy forum? What was your purpose for coming out?