down with bitcoin

[firefop]

* Bitcoin or the competitor that beats it will not last more than a decade as the primary currency.  Eventually, a currency with a low level of inflation built in will replace the fixed rate currency.  This currency will work for at time but the inflation rate will be too high or too low to match population levels and the smart money will lead the pack to a replacement currency.  Over time investors will move away from a reserve currency since establishing a fixed rate of inflation is impossible.  The end result will be a basket of competing currencies; many or all of which backed by commodities.

 

TL:DR, Basically my view is that bitcoin still has a long way down ahead, perhaps as low as $30.  One day, perhaps soon, will be a fantastic buying opportunity.  Most likely, the bitcoin low will be a leading indicator for the big market crash ahead.

 

Happy to be educated further, thanks

 

You won't see it below 100 ever again imo. That being said, the deflationary nature of bitcoin is the primary reason that it has any traction with consumers. Sane Consumers do not want inflation. In the fiscal environment that bitcoin will gradually create there will be no need for banking in the traditional sense and very little need for money lending. Bitcoin will start to show it's true value once it begins to replace the existing bank wire transfer system. Moving value around is what bitcoin excels at. The moment we have can complete the circuit between consumer, retail, supplier, manufacturer and back to consumer (probably via wages) we'll finally get to see bitcoins actual value. This is potentially decades from now... but if the bitcoin economy continues to grow we'll get there eventually. 

[powder]

You won't see it below 100 ever again imo. That being said, the deflationary nature of bitcoin is the primary reason that it has any traction with consumers. Sane Consumers do not want inflation. In the fiscal environment that bitcoin will gradually create there will be no need for banking in the traditional sense and very little need for money lending. Bitcoin will start to show it's true value once it begins to replace the existing bank wire transfer system. Moving value around is what bitcoin excels at. The moment we have can complete the circuit between consumer, retail, supplier, manufacturer and back to consumer (probably via wages) we'll finally get to see bitcoins actual value. This is potentially decades from now... but if the bitcoin economy continues to grow we'll get there eventually. 

good post

[MCM]

Filled with mixed emotions re-reading this thread now in late 2017. I just hope that those who had BTC held them and I commiserate with those who despaired and ditched their BTC a few years ago (including me).

 

[barn]

Hi @MCM

Perhaps I could chime in by saying

' The best time to start was years ago, the second best is now and the third is ASAP. '

Fractions can be bought for as little as not even a cent.

for reference, the current value of crypto

Barnsley

[MCM]

8 hours ago, barn said:

Hi @MCM

Perhaps I could chime in by saying

' The best time to start was years ago, ..."

 Yes I've bought crypto currency lately trying to chase my losses  But I think BTC has reached peak of its parabolic rise. But who knows - this is unchartered territory.

Edited December 12, 2017 by MCM

[RichardY]

Bitcoin, Lite Coin, Nova Coin, Iota Coin. "In the End there can be Only One."

Remember from reading some of Von Mises "A Theory of Money and Credit". About the Gold standard and how all currencies were ultimately related to it. After WW1 the withdrawal of Great Britain, France and Germany from the Gold Standard. Led to Switzerland, who had ample Gold reserves withdrawing from the standard. An International exchange rate linked to American Gold reserves was still used however, to settle national debts. Possibly because countries could more easily (through public opinion/suffering) inflate away any national debts on other nations than their ethnic people.

Can money really have no tangible value though? ( In the end we're all dead) There's that Atlas Shrugged money speech that is often brought up, about money being consciously created through effort. Would Bitcoin mean a more Platonic Financial System than an Aristotelian one? There was an economist called John Law, that overhauled the French Financial System. - Wikipedia John Law (baptised 21 April 1671 – 21 March 1729) was a Scottish economist who believed that money was only a means of exchange that did not constitute wealth in itself and that national wealth depended on trade. He was appointed Controller General of Finances of France under the Duke of Orleans, regent for the youthful king, Louis XV.

How is Bitcoin immune from Government Manipulation?

BUY BUY BUY!!!!!!, SELL SELL SELL!!!!!!

 

[meetjoeblack]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 8:15 PM, powder said:

Had not checked the price of bitcoin of a while and just saw that it is down around $230 (canadian) - when I started following it the price was around $800 if I remember correctly.  have been waiting to buy some, glad that I waited...  who knows the news on the coin?  

My friend was telling me to jump on for years. Unfortunately, I do not understand the currency crypto fad so, I missed the mark on this one. Originally, it was a currency absent of government which I think was fantastic but, of course, they get involved and its the same damn thing all over again. If it was absent of everything, it would have been a real gold mine. My buddy is mining it atm. 

[BrianDouglasCollins]

On 1/15/2015 at 11:08 AM, Kevin Beal said:

You can't know for sure about these things, but there is an enormous selling pressure since the feds are selling the 100k bitcoins they stole from Ulbricht and silk road 2.0 people. Also there was $5 million stolen from one of the exchanges recently (BitInstant?). Thefts like that make people lose confidence and sell.

 

The price has fallen low enough that a lot of miners won't turn on their machines because they won't make enough in rewards.

 

Alan is referring to the Regression theorem, originally conceived by Mises. I'm not an expert, but this is supposed to solve a supposed infinite regression problem about where the value of money originates. "Money is valuable because it's money" being a non-answer. I don't see how this jives with the fact that the value of goods is subjective (also Mises).

 

It's got to be valuable because it's backed by gold and other commodities, say the austrians. Gold is valuable as jewelry and in industrial applications, for example. I've never heard how this argument is supposed to work beyond what I've already told you. As far as I can tell, people simply assert that there is an infinite regression and that having non-monetary utility solves that problem. I'm very skeptical of both claims myself, but perhaps Alan can enlighten us. Also, bitcoin has many non-monetary applications as well. Austrians don't tend to understand that.

 

I'm holding all my bitcoin, personally. I don't think it's going anywhere. Bitcoin has survived worse things.

The value of fiat money, money that has no other utility than to be traded, is in its ability to easily be traded.  When people talk about a liquid asset, they are talking about an asset that can easily be converted to money. Why do we want to convert things to money?  Because we can easily trade money.  So to say that fiat money has no utility in itself is false.  The utility in it is its ability to be traded for things that you need at the time.

The idea that there is a regression problem with the origin of money seems to be fundamentally flawed.  Money is nothing more than a unit conversion tool.  I have chickens and you have milking cows.  How many chickens is one milking cow worth in a trade?  I don't know.  To figure it out, we just convert both to money and then see what it equals.  That is the utility.

[st434u]

14 hours ago, BrianDouglasCollins said:

The idea that there is a regression problem with the origin of money seems to be fundamentally flawed.  Money is nothing more than a unit conversion tool.  I have chickens and you have milking cows.  How many chickens is one milking cow worth in a trade?  I don't know.  To figure it out, we just convert both to money and then see what it equals.  That is the utility.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what money is, why it's helpful, and how it arises in a free market. I don't blame you, we live in a crazy world where people have been led to believe that money are colored pieces of paper with numbers written on them, or worse, numbers on a computer screen somewhere.

First, there is barter. Here there is no money per se, and all valuable items are exchanged for other valuable items, with no preference of one over another, in your example it might be trading chickens for milking cows directly. Some sellers of milking cows might ask for 50 chickens for one milking cows, while others might ask for 200, just like prices vary in the marketplace today. And yet others might not want chickens at all, and demand to be paid in flour instead. But you might not have flour, so now you have to find someone who has flour and wants chickens.

It soon becomes obvious that some of those valuable items being exchanged are better at performing the roles of a medium exchange than the others. For instance, rice might be superior to eggs, because rice lasts for a long time without spoiling, it's easy to recognize it's quality without breaking it, it's less likely that it will become ruined by something as simple as a bump, it's easier to store and transport than eggs, it's easier to divide and make small change for paying for inexpensive things with rice than with other valuable items such as live milking cows and even eggs, and maybe also because more people in your area eat rice (and in a greater amount) than those that eat eggs or consume dairy. Then, sellers might all start demanding rice, even if they themselves don't eat rice, because they know that other people in the market will demand rice, either to consume it themselves, or to exchange for what they want.

Here rice has become money, but notice how, even though in all other points it was superior to milking cows or eggs, if nobody wanted to consume any rice, then it would make little sense to use it as a form of money, since you would have no guarantee that others would accept it the next day in exchange for their goods, even if they accept it today. And even if they did, you would have no idea at what rate they would accept it tomorrow, since the rational expectation would be that at some point, sooner or later, everybody would realize that they're using an item that will soon become worthless as money, and begin to demand something else as payment, and to get rid of their rice as fast as they can.

When you say that money is simply a conversion tool, this misses the point. Money can only be a conversion tool if it has value in the first place. If a form of money becomes worthless (or was worthless all along), then it can't be a conversion tool for anything.

[Jake]

You're right. A lot of people are investing money in the crypto currency today. This year I want to buy bitcoin until its price has risen. I plan to do it. I read a lot about the fact that its price will increase several times in this year!! But I can't decide on bitcoin wallet. Which is best? It seems to me multibit is very good. What can you say? Here is more information about this wallet here  https://bitcoinbestbuy.com/wallets/bitcoin-wallet-multibit-review/

[meetjoeblack]

On 05/01/2018 at 4:25 AM, Jake said:

You're right. A lot of people are investing money in the crypto currency today. This year I want to buy bitcoin until its price has risen. I plan to do it. I read a lot about the fact that its price will increase several times in this year!! But I can't decide on bitcoin wallet. Which is best? It seems to me multibit is very good. What can you say? Here is more information about this wallet here  https://bitcoinbestbuy.com/wallets/bitcoin-wallet-multibit-review/

Checkout Coin Base. The thing is, there was more money to be made obv if you were ahead of the curve or if you jump onto the next wave of cryptos. The turn over time for BTC is terrible which leaves room for other coins. LTC for instance among several others. BCC was recently introduced to Coin Base. In the new year, there will be several more, and the tech will continue to change.

Once someone figures out how to foolproof it from gov manipulation, the value will skyrocket. If the conversion from BTC:USD, the pricess will blow up, and the same with once amazon, walmart, ebay, etc. begin accepting it as a currency. 

[Tyler H]

@Jake @meetjoeblack

Coibase is an exchange, so their wallet is not under your direct control. Like a bank if you tell them what to do with your funds they will do it, but you are still dependent upon them to do so.

There are many wallets that give you control over the private keys - the code that releases your coins for spending. Bitcoin.com, BTC.com, blockchain.info, all have decent mobile wallet software that keeps the private keys under your control. Personally I like bitcoin.com’s wallet the best. For better security go with a hardware wallet like ledger, trezor, or keepkey.

If you don’t have control of your private keys you don’t have control of your bitcoin. 

Also, BitcoinCash is the real bitcoin. big banks invested money in Blockstream to sabotage bitcoin. The proposed solution to scale without increasing block size by developing the “lightning network” is a way for banks to maintain relevancy in the age of crypto currency. By performing transactions off chain it bypasses the consensus mechanism that decentralized bitcoin.

If you’re into bitcoin for the freedom it can provide to the world then BitcoinCash is what you want to support. 

[meetjoeblack]

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 4:37 PM, Tyler H said:

@Jake @meetjoeblack

Coibase is an exchange, so their wallet is not under your direct control. Like a bank if you tell them what to do with your funds they will do it, but you are still dependent upon them to do so.

There are many wallets that give you control over the private keys - the code that releases your coins for spending. Bitcoin.com, BTC.com, blockchain.info, all have decent mobile wallet software that keeps the private keys under your control. Personally I like bitcoin.com’s wallet the best. For better security go with a hardware wallet like ledger, trezor, or keepkey.

If you don’t have control of your private keys you don’t have control of your bitcoin. 

Also, BitcoinCash is the real bitcoin. big banks invested money in Blockstream to sabotage bitcoin. The proposed solution to scale without increasing block size by developing the “lightning network” is a way for banks to maintain relevancy in the age of crypto currency. By performing transactions off chain it bypasses the consensus mechanism that decentralized bitcoin.

If you’re into bitcoin for the freedom it can provide to the world then BitcoinCash is what you want to support. 

Sorry for the delay. Been MIA. 

I've read a series of finance books from Benjamin Graham to most recently, Dave Ramsey and Tony Robbins latest material. Everyone swears by DIVERSIFYING. I've been made aware of trading savings accounts whereby, you do not have to pay taxes/capital gains on said money which is pretty cool. 

I've played with several online. I wish I was a member back in 2014. I feel late to the party. With the most recent decline, it is allowing people to get into the BTC market. Cryptos as a whole. I am watching for this to hit rockbottom before jumping in. 

I am trying my best to understand the technology. I want to invest in the actual blockchain technology. Not just the coins. I am thinking Ripple will go up once it jumps onto a visa card or major bank in USA. Once its on CoinBase, I expect it to go up to $10/USD. I do not like it as I feel like its, centralized and more of the devil we already know. Still, I would like to get a piece of the action. 

Thoughts on Ethereum? I ask because I feel like its still a sleeper despite being #2 on the CoinMarket.com I feel like this is the one that has done well despite this down turn. 

Anymore resources or recommended material for Bitcoin Cash? I am currently rampaging through Andrea's books and vids online. I am 2/3 his books atm. If only I came across it all much sooner.