Today I snapped...

[Forknight]

I want to share something that happened to me today.  I'd like the thoughts and feelings of this community on whether or not I did the right thing.  It's all so jumbled up in my head that I can't make sense of it so some help would be greatly appreciated.  As a little background, I should probably mention that I'm a big guy and I have rage issues that I've been trying to work through, with medium success.  I was a mess through my late 20s but at 32 my life is finally getting better the more I align it with my principles.  I find myself feeling less hopeless, empty, and filled with rage every day.  I'm also a father and I'm proud to say I've never raised my voice in anger or spanked my daughter even once, despite being severely abused as a child.  

As I was walking up to my office building this morning, I heard a voice scream and a child cry, so I looked around but didn't see anything at first. As I'm walking along, these two women cut in front of me onto the sidewalk with two children in tow (one girl about 4 and one boy probably about 7). The woman dragging the boy along begrudgingly looks down and says to the boy "Stop dragging your feet like your worthless father." Then proceeds to start insulting the boys father and basically saying that this 7 year old boy is just like him.

 

The 4 year old girl reaches back to scratch her butt and the woman dragging her along grabs her arms and says "Scratch your butt in the car" to which the ~4 year old replies "itchy itchy" and she says "I don't give a shit. Stop scratching your fucking ass NOW!" This was, of course, amidst a cloud of verbal insults and very forceful touching intended to force her to keep her hands at her sides. All I could think was that this woman probably did a poor job wiping the little girl after she went potty and it itches, like potty training children tend to have problems with. Now she's verbally and borderline physically abusing this child because of her own failures as a parent.

 

Seeing this triggered a level of rage I don't think I've ever felt before. It was like through pure anger suddenly my senses were sharpened and my thought and intentions were as clear as the ringing of a bell. I simply said "Are you fucking kidding me? You people should be ashamed of yourselves treating children that way. They're CHILDREN! They don't know any better. What you are doing is fucking DISGUSTING!"

 

At first they couldn't believe that I had the balls to say anything. I assume most parents either agree or just keep quiet so being directly confronted by a stranger was probably a shock.  Then when their defenses recovered from the verbal torpedoing they received in front of their children they started SCREAMING like a drill sergeant about how "You don't even have children so what the fuck do you know?" I replied that I did, in fact, have a child and I could never even begin to fathom what it would take to be such a shitty parent. Then I repeated what she said to the boy back to her in a mocking tone and told her she was pathetic before simply walking away to the sounds of her screaming at the top of her lungs accusing me of... not paying child support?

 

The one thing I feel bad about is that the kids are probably going to get it tonight because she probably blames them for her parental failures. At least they saw someone have the balls to stand up to his terrifying fucking scraggly toothed meth addict looking mother though.  What do you think?  I know that I felt like if I said nothing that it would be cowardice because, as I'm sure many of you within this community can empathize, the abuse of children being a moral abomination is one of my most closely held beliefs.  Is it better to spare the child an extra two nights of severe potential abuse and swallow my words, or is it better to be ready to potentially die (I live in a well-armed state and we know how these situations can escalate) in order to stand up for what I believe in?   I can't help but feel like the latter is the only clear answer.

[MysterionMuffles]

Thanks for sharing. Those women are despicable...good of you to point out that the little girl's ass was itchy possibly because of poor hygiene care from one of the women. I'm not sure if you denormalized the women's behaviour for the children. On one hand they see someone standing up to mean people....but being mean about it. I don't exect you to be completely passive and compassionate towards these bitches, but there are ways of being assertive without being aggressive, and what you did was totally aggressive. Not judging, just pointing it out. Your response was totally justified and understandable, and those women needed to see what it's like to be yelled at.

 

The kind of way you spoke to them, and the kinds of things you said, do you feel like that may have been something you've wanted to express to your parents for a long time? Sorry if that's a leading question, to ask a more open ended question; how did you respond to your parents' absuve behaviour? Have they ever done anything similar that these women did? ie outright insulting you by being compared to a lesser adult, being shamed for basic biological care etc.

[Forknight]

Thanks for sharing. Those women are despicable...good of you to point out that the little girl's ass was itchy possibly because of poor hygiene care from one of the women. I'm not sure if you denormalized the women's behaviour for the children. On one hand they see someone standing up to mean people....but being mean about it. I don't exect you to be completely passive and compassionate towards these bitches, but there are ways of being assertive without being aggressive, and what you did was totally aggressive. Not judging, just pointing it out. Your response was totally justified and understandable, and those women needed to see what it's like to be yelled at.

You're right.  I wasn't diplomatic but I'm not sure what else I could have said.  Perhaps you have some suggestions?  I would like to avoid getting shot or fired because this sort of thing is unfortunately common in this city.  Especially in the area around where I work.  

 

"how did you respond to your parents' absuve behaviour?"

 

I would retreat into books and video games.  I internalized everything until my mid 20s.  When my daughter was born, I went through a long period where all the stuff I had sealed inside "rotted" and turned into a gigantic ball of rage that was too much to contain.  I never hurt anyone thankfully, but I was very unstable during that time.  That scared me so badly that I took a big step back and it took me a while to get my head straight.  It's still there, but it just isn't constant anymore.  The only time I feel it anymore is when something clearly violates my most deeply held beliefs, and then it all comes back like a hurricane.    

 

"Have they ever done anything similar that these women did?"

 

Yes.  I was shamed, neglected, beaten, berated, and ultimately given away to the state by the time I was 15.

[AynRand]

I do applaud you for speaking up, and not letting this child abuse go unchecked, but I do agree with Rainbow Jamz that it is probably better to be assertive rather than aggressive. The overall goal is to limit the total amount of abuse to the child, and i'm sorry to say, but I believe that being assertive will better influence that child. I fully acknowledge that coming up with things to say on the spot is really difficult, but after a few minutes of thinking I think a good response to their question of  "You don't even have children so what the fuck do you know?" would be   "I know that parenting can be difficult, and I also know enough that child abuse is a terrible crime to commit, and I would never hit my (insert age of child here) year old (insert name of child here)."

[shirgall]

Forknight, thank you for speaking up and standing up for those children. I have not been brave enough to do this myself.

[Forknight]

Forknight, thank you for speaking up and standing up for those children. I have not been brave enough to do this myself.

I don't know if I would call it brave but thank you.  It just sort of came out of me and I didn't have time to think.  I really do wish I had approached the situation differently now that I think about it but I suppose it's a valuable lesson.  I think I knew being rational to these people was probably going to inspire the same response, so I figured I would go for maximum impact but that's about all the thought I put into it before the words started coming.  It's very tempting to try to put the spin of being a brave protector of children on it but I'm not sure that's totally honest.  It seems to leave me with more questions about myself than answers that help children.  Maybe somewhere tonight she's crying herself to sleep and tomorrow she'll wake up and stop being a shit mom but I doubt it.

[skibum]

It’s most definitely brave. I think you instinctively knew what was coming from them. Thank you for doing that. Great story.

 

But one thing I must say: you should recognize your male privilege. She was probably stressed. j/k

[MysterionMuffles]

So then you can see how you've pent up this anger and let it bottle up inside until that moment, right? I'm not making any judgements or anything. Just letting you know that I think that's what may have happened. You've harbored a lot of anger and resentment towards your parents and wanted to speak out about it, but it got redircted towards women who simply replicated what you've experienced. Then to see it happen to other children outside of yourself, that gave you a huge spike in empathy. I condone what you've done, it WAS very brave, as for how you approached it I'm not sure. Some would argue that while it may denormalize abuse by children, it might teach them to fight outright aggression with more outright aggression. If that's right or wrong I'll never know. I still wonder to what degree I'll be assertive and possibly aggressive the next time I see a child get abused in public. 

 

I have a thread on a recent intervention I've done, I totally get where you're coming from. There's a regret on how much better you may have approached it and in my thread I feel almost the same.

[nathanm]

Tough call.  How does a moral person express their outrage while still holding the high ground?  It seems absurd that good people should only be calm and measured in response to impulsive, abusive people.  Seems like the level of attitude should be matched, as Forknight did.  Is it only the F-words that should have been omitted?  The text can't fully convey the tone, so it's hard to say.  I have no hope for those women or their kids, it's probably a lost cause, but it's still good that you spoke out.  Someone else may have been watching. 

 

Also it's interesting that we have some evidence that the affirmative and truthful reply to "Do YOU have kids?" has zero effect in the end.  Not too surprising.

[jpahmad]

All I can say is dammnnn!  Impressive.  I got angry just reading your description of the situation.  I can only imagine how it felt observing it in reality.

[shirgall]

Tough call.  How does a moral person express their outrage while still holding the high ground?

 

By defending the victims with the best tools they have. It's is not about attacking the abusers it's about defending the abused. A screaming match won't solve the problem, but the calm, rational intervention may stop the beating in the moment, and give pause for potential beatings in the future. And it's a signal to the victim that "it doesn't have to be this way."

[Forknight]

So then you can see how you've pent up this anger and let it bottle up inside until that moment, right? I'm not making any judgements or anything. Just letting you know that I think that's what may have happened. You've harbored a lot of anger and resentment towards your parents and wanted to speak out about it, but it got redircted towards women who simply replicated what you've experienced. Then to see it happen to other children outside of yourself, that gave you a huge spike in empathy. I condone what you've done, it WAS very brave, as for how you approached it I'm not sure. Some would argue that while it may denormalize abuse by children, it might teach them to fight outright aggression with more outright aggression. If that's right or wrong I'll never know. I still wonder to what degree I'll be assertive and possibly aggressive the next time I see a child get abused in public. 

 

I have a thread on a recent intervention I've done, I totally get where you're coming from. There's a regret on how much better you may have approached it and in my thread I feel almost the same.

Yes, I do see that it was really just as much about me as it was about seeing the children being treated that way. I fully acknowledge that there is a lot I still need to work on about myself and that my response to things I find unacceptable is one of them.  I recently had a friend tell me that while we were having a disagreement he thought my body language indicated that I was about to start attacking him, even though I would never just attack someone for insulting me.  I don't really get super angry very often but when I do it's almost as if I disassociate and I'm watching myself move automatically.  I'd like to get to a point where that doesn't happen but I can see now that that is going to take some work.

 

[MysterionMuffles]

What do you plan to do to work on those rare instances of intense rage?

[Forknight]

What do you plan to do to work on those rare instances of intense rage?

I don't have a plan yet, but I will formulate one.  I'm still processing this since it just happened yesterday.  I imagine it will have something to do with thinking more before I act but at this point in time I'm obviously not there yet.  

[J. D. Stembal]

You're right.  I wasn't diplomatic but I'm not sure what else I could have said.  Perhaps you have some suggestions?  I would like to avoid getting shot or fired because this sort of thing is unfortunately common in this city.  Especially in the area around where I work.  

 

"how did you respond to your parents' absuve behaviour?"

 

I would retreat into books and video games.  I internalized everything until my mid 20s.  When my daughter was born, I went through a long period where all the stuff I had sealed inside "rotted" and turned into a gigantic ball of rage that was too much to contain.  I never hurt anyone thankfully, but I was very unstable during that time.  That scared me so badly that I took a big step back and it took me a while to get my head straight.  It's still there, but it just isn't constant anymore.  The only time I feel it anymore is when something clearly violates my most deeply held beliefs, and then it all comes back like a hurricane.    

 

"Have they ever done anything similar that these women did?"

 

Yes.  I was shamed, neglected, beaten, berated, and ultimately given away to the state by the time I was 15.

 

I am heartbroken to hear about your family. The fact that you can stick up for other children instead of internalizing child abuse is amazing. I have trouble speaking up against child abuse when I see it right in front of my eyes, mostly because I'm not exactly sure what I am seeing unless I really think it through.

 

It's incredibly rare that I see a parent physically abusing a child in public. The last time I saw this happening, I was visiting my father's family, it was my brother being whipped by a belt, and it took me a solid 40 minutes of thought to confront my father about it. I could not react in the moment other than saying, "What the hell is going on here?" and hugging my brother and sister after the abuser had left the room.

 

I was at the post office the other day and observed a woman in front of me in line, who had her two young children with her. She seemed incredibly distracted by her children, who were playing with the doors of the boxes about 30 feet away from her. Once more people started showing up behind us and line, she started anxiously coaxing her daughter, who was probably 2 or 3, over to her. "Come and help mommy! Mommy needs your help holding the mail."

 

The son and daughter wandered over and she immediately tried to get her daughter to hold her mail. When she didn't want to hold the mail, the mother picked her up, and the daughter began to cry. She was obviously happier playing around the Post Office with her older brother. An older woman, probably sixty, was observing these motherly interactions and vocally chuckling to herself the whole time. Eventually, she started engaging the mother in conversation while she was holding her daughter, and the brother, probably age 4, wandered off again and started playing. This time, her mother was oblivious to her son as she was engaged in conversation.

 

Within a minute or two, the son called out, "Mommy, I need help!" He had gotten his arm stuck behind a display. Mom ran over to help, afterwards keeping her son close by her side at the counter. She made a couple of strangely sarcastically sounding comments about the wonders of a child's curiousity, and held her son's hand for the remainder of the visit. He started passively struggling against her grip by leaning backwards horizonally inches above the floor. After about a minute of this, the mother shouted, "Please stand up." He then stopped.

 

I don't think I observed overt abuse, but there was something about this woman's interaction with her children that seemed smothering, yet dismissive at the same time. Should I have said something? What could I have said? Is there a great question I may have posed to her? I was struggling to find words for my feelings in reaction to her mothering. I don't really have a personal basis for comparison because my own mother was largely absent from my childhood, just like my father.

 

If I saw a woman hitting and smacking her children in public, my reaction would be immediate, but there are psychological forms of abuse that are much less obvious and much more devastating.

 

You may have reacted strongly by yelling at the women, but you need to understand that the compulsion lies within you because of your history. The next time you see and confront child abuse, you will probably have a better handle on your reaction, and find yourself more calmly dealing with the emotions stirred up within you.