Tedious demeanor to avoid flirting

[Kevin Beal]

I've been told that very attractive women in the 8, 9 and 10 area are hit on so often that they feel they need to adopt an indifferent, aloof attitude. Not all, but many. It's almost as if talking to guys who they don't find hot is tedious, like they resent most guys talking to them. It seems to happen less frequently with women under 25. (Or maybe that's just because I appeal more to that demographic? )

 

I've noticed this a lot. It could have nothing to do with dissuading me from flirting with them the way I suspect, but it bothers me. I get this crappy attitude from women occasionally, I suspect for this reason, where they won't even make eye contact and speak in a monotone. It works. I am very put off by it. But it's like I'm getting punished for the actions of some guys which she doesn't find attractive flirting with her.

 

And maybe it's a lack of empathy on my part, but who gives a fuck?! When women who I am not interested flirt with me, I don't resent them for it. The opposite is true. I am flattered, and I talk to them respectfully without flirting back so as not to lead them on. It's not really any problem for me. But for some women it is apparently pretty awful. I don't understand it.

 

Some guys have told me that women are inclined to think that any guy that hits on them but who she finds unattractive is automatically considered a "creep". That sounds like dangerous territory, since a creep would certainly love to tell himself/herself that, I would want to hear more details before I conclude anything. But at the same time, it does seem to point to a difference between men and women, generally. How one girl put it was that if a guy who is 2 or 3 points less attractive than she perceives herself to be, then it's like an insult. Like "how dare you think that I'm in your league". And if her ex boyfriend dates a girl who she thinks is 2 or 3 points again below where she estimates herself, then that's similarly insulting. Maybe it's not a lot of women who think that sort of thing, but I have noticed it only in women, so far.

 

So, when I hear that men are shallow pigs who only care about T n' A and blonde hair and whatever, I wonder if that's really just projection. Some of the most shallow people I've ever come across have been women, but that could be my social circles.

 

But if you can't tell, I resent this dynamic. I honestly feel a little stung when I perceive that's what's going on and I'm being told implicitly that I'm not worthy of being allowed to flirt with her, much less date her. Maybe I'm overreacting, and probably I am, but it happened again today while I was ordering a sandwich. The guy in front of me who I perceived to be "cooler" got smiles and pleasantness and not that I had any interest in flirting with this gal, but I didn't even get eye contact. It was monotonal tedious crappiness. It was so strange and in contrast that it was clear that she didn't want to talk to me. Again, maybe it had nothing to do with me, most people love talking to me, but if I perceived rightly that I was caught in that position, then fuck. What a bunch of bullshit!

 

Am I crazy?

Have you noticed this before?

How do you feel about people less physically attractive than you flirting with you?

[surfingthoughts]

I don't think your crazy it happens but don't let it get you down you could thank them for waving the red flag so obviously. Some of it might come down to biology I mean men need to spread their seed in terms of biology for a woman pregnancy for her carries allot more risk so they are more choosy. Having said all that it doesn't give them a valid reason to act the way you describe. Your biggest selling point should be your virtue if they are not curious about that then I wouldn't be too curious about them.

[shirgall]

Is this not a variant of "hard to get"?

[Kevin Beal]

Is this not a variant of "hard to get"?

As in "playing hard to get"? Like they are interested but pretending not to be? I don't understand that dynamic at all, so I couldn't tell you.

 

But apparently, there is a "shit test" that looks like that, I just looked up. Which is interesting. I guess I failed, haha. I really don't understand women :S

[J. D. Stembal]

I've been told that very attractive women in the 8, 9 and 10 area are hit on so often that they feel they need to adopt an indifferent, aloof attitude. Not all, but many. It's almost as if talking to guys who they don't find hot is tedious, like they resent most guys talking to them. It seems to happen less frequently with women under 25. (Or maybe that's just because I appeal more to that demographic? )

 

I've noticed this a lot. It could have nothing to do with dissuading me from flirting with them the way I suspect, but it bothers me. I get this crappy attitude from women occasionally, I suspect for this reason, where they won't even make eye contact and speak in a monotone. It works. I am very put off by it. But it's like I'm getting punished for the actions of some guys which she doesn't find attractive flirting with her.

 

And maybe it's a lack of empathy on my part, but who gives a fuck?! When women who I am not interested flirt with me, I don't resent them for it. The opposite is true. I am flattered, and I talk to them respectfully without flirting back so as not to lead them on. It's not really any problem for me. But for some women it is apparently pretty awful. I don't understand it.

 

Some guys have told me that women are inclined to think that any guy that hits on them but who she finds unattractive is automatically considered a "creep". That sounds like dangerous territory, since a creep would certainly love to tell himself/herself that, I would want to hear more details before I conclude anything. But at the same time, it does seem to point to a difference between men and women, generally. How one girl put it was that if a guy who is 2 or 3 points less attractive than she perceives herself to be, then it's like an insult. Like "how dare you think that I'm in your league". And if her ex boyfriend dates a girl who she thinks is 2 or 3 points again below where she estimates herself, then that's similarly insulting. Maybe it's not a lot of women who think that sort of thing, but I have noticed it only in women, so far.

 

So, when I hear that men are shallow pigs who only care about T n' A and blonde hair and whatever, I wonder if that's really just projection. Some of the most shallow people I've ever come across have been women, but that could be my social circles.

 

But if you can't tell, I resent this dynamic. I honestly feel a little stung when I perceive that's what's going on and I'm being told implicitly that I'm not worthy of being allowed to flirt with her, much less date her. Maybe I'm overreacting, and probably I am, but it happened again today while I was ordering a sandwich. The guy in front of me who I perceived to be "cooler" got smiles and pleasantness and not that I had any interest in flirting with this gal, but I didn't even get eye contact. It was monotonal tedious crappiness. It was so strange and in contrast that it was clear that she didn't want to talk to me. Again, maybe it had nothing to do with me, most people love talking to me, but if I perceived rightly that I was caught in that position, then fuck. What a bunch of bullshit!

 

Am I crazy?

Have you noticed this before?

How do you feel about people less physically attractive than you flirting with you?

 

You mentioned in another thread that you aren't naturally the sharpest dresser, yet you are handsome in your photo. Add posture into the mix and before you even say one word to a woman, she already knows if she interested in you. Then you can get to chatting, and finding out who she is.

 

I don't care what you decide to wear in public. I shop at Goodwill and wear my clothes until they fall apart. Just know that if you aren't kitted out in colorful menswear and accessories (watch, chains, rings), you probably aren't going to get many stares, or side ways glances from women. If you do get a lingering look from a woman, then you can move it to investigate. When I'm in my normal dressed down state, the only women who stare at me are the ones that are whispering to their friends something cynical about my appearance that I cannot overhear.

 

I could throw on a suit, tie and a collared shirt and go hit it up with women at social hotspots around town, but I just don't see the fun or virtue in this type of male peacocking behavior anymore. It hasn't landed me a virtuous women during the last 18 years. Why would it suddenly start working now?

[Frederik]

As in "playing hard to get"? Like they are interested but pretending not to be? I don't understand that dynamic at all, so I couldn't tell you.

 

But apparently, there is a "shit test" that looks like that, I just looked up. Which is interesting. I guess I failed, haha. I really don't understand women :S

Did you read The Way of the Superior Man? As a total woman noob I learned a megaton about the game by reading it.

[shirgall]

As in "playing hard to get"? Like they are interested but pretending not to be? I don't understand that dynamic at all, so I couldn't tell you.

 

But apparently, there is a "shit test" that looks like that, I just looked up. Which is interesting. I guess I failed, haha. I really don't understand women :S

 

In discussing this subject with my teenage daughter, she is not consciously aware of "shit tests" but definitely engages in the behavior. She seems pretty oblivious to it. It appears she has learned it from her female peers from middle school onward. Or from the shows they like to watch, such as "Pretty Little Liars" etc.

[MMX2010]

But apparently, there is a "shit test" that looks like that, I just looked up. Which is interesting. I guess I failed, haha. I really don't understand women :S

 

Few things make me as happy as when Rollo's latest post matches exactly a question I was asking, or deals directly with what another man is going through. 

 

http://therationalmale.com/2015/01/13/acing-the-test/

 

 

 

Active Testing

 

When a woman actively, consciously, shit tests you, understand that it is always intentional. This type of shit test is the most common one PUAs encounter in the clubs or whatever their preferred venue may be. With the exception of maybe Day Game, women in these arenas are expecting men to sarge them, and therefore the propensity to deliver a prepared shit test is a conscious decision on her part. For the most part these tests amount to a fun game for her that serve the purpose of determining a guy’s SMV and his Hypergamy optimization potential.

 

An active test is entertainment to her in the same way it is for a bratty sister and her older brother. There’s usually a lot of witty (hopefully on your part) push-pull to this shit test exchange, but the latent purpose is her subconscious probing you for the possibility that you might ‘get it’ – that you might be able to play the game rather than having to explain it to her or having it explained to you.

 

As I’ve stated before, a woman who is into you wont confuse you, but a lot of men (particularly overly conditioned Betas) come to believe that any impropriety on his part might be taken as an offensive so they never boldly push back on these test as they should. They fall back on the “Yes M’Lady” white knight script they believe will set them apart from “other guys”, but the guys who ‘get it’ aren’t confused by shit tests. A big brother hits his bratty sister back when they’re play fighting; not so much as to harm her, but just enough to show her who’s stronger, who’s in control of his situation and isn’t afraid to push her back.

 

If a woman is not testing you in an environment where she could reasonably be expected to actively be doing so, she doesn’t have the interest in you to do so. A lot of men mistake a woman’s “Bitch Shield” as a cue of disinterest or disgust, when in fact these are often calculated shit tests. There are many ways to push past a Bitch Shield for a guy with the brass (and interest) to do so, but it’s a woman’s indifference, not her poised contempt, that cues disinterest.

 

Active tests are what single men are most likely to encounter in women, and it’s important for these men to understand that this type of test isn’t something you pass, but rather something you capitalize on. For a guy with even a basic grasp of Game these test should be considered nothing but softballs for him to hit out of the park.

 

Things to remember are Amused Mastery, Command Presence, Agree & Amplify and a basic Cocky & Funny ambience while employing them. I should also add that women deliberately putting themselves into social environments (like a club) who are delivering active shit test are likely at the ovulation point of their Estrus phase – adjust your Game (and birth control methods) accordingly.

 

If you recognize that you’re being actively shit tested always remember, play with her, and play with her. Shit tests of this nature are opportunities to build attraction as well as arousal, and women want you to get that they are opportunities.

 

 

The key question in her test is, "Do you care how my behavior affects you because you think I'm special OR do you care how my behavior affects you because you don't think I'm special?"  The more you let every woman's behavior confuse and annoy you, the less reliable any woman believes you to be. 

 

It may be weird for me to ask you, "Would you lend $100,000 to a complete stranger?", because I'm comparing the potential loss of six figures to the potential flustering at the whims of an attractive woman you'll probably never see again.  But the weirdness applies masculine logic to a feminine, emotional situation - and the man who gets women understands that getting flustered at how an attractive woman you've just met is treating you is fundamentally equivalent to loaning a stranger six figures.   

[Kevin Beal]

I feel a bit embarrassed. I don't usually feel stung by that sort of thing. I think it might have been because I was already in a crap mood. I have no idea if she was playing hard to get, but the more I'm reading up on "game" and "shit tests" the more I think I already sort of do that stuff. Not that I'm some super suave guy or anything, I'm actually kinda bashful and clumsy around women I find hot, but I enjoy the sort of tests that see how I react to questions or comments, like "I bet you say that to all the girls", haha. Playing hard to get, less so, because it confuses me. But I didn't want to give the impression that I've got no game, since that would make me appear unmasculine. I swear I am! Please believe me!!!

[MMX2010]

Did you read The Way of the Superior Man? As a total woman noob I learned a megaton about the game by reading it.

 

I remember that book: it was key in my decision to start a relationship with the older woman I almost married. 

 

The insidious weakness of the book, (which may not be apparent to you), is the contrast between the bevy of self-improvement advice it gives men and the utter lack of self-improvement expectations it advises men to expect from women.  Following that book will, indeed, allow a man to grow and grow and grow.  But by NOT expecting women to grow in accordance with, and in response to, his own growth - the book sub-consciously causes men to accept that, "I must grow, because I'm not perfect.  But she mustn't grow, because she is perfect." 

 

This insidious weakness also traps a man with this insoluble dilemma: "If I stop growing, will she get mad at me and insist I keep growing?  But if I continue to grow, while she doesn't, will she get mad because she'll expect me to want a better woman than her?  Am I doomed for stopping growth AND for continuing to grow?" 

[Frederik]

 

I remember that book: it was key in my decision to start a relationship with the older woman I almost married. 

 

The insidious weakness of the book, (which may not be apparent to you), is the contrast between the bevy of self-improvement advice it gives men and the utter lack of self-improvement expectations it advises men to expect from women.  Following that book will, indeed, allow a man to grow and grow and grow.  But by NOT expecting women to grow in accordance with, and in response to, his own growth - the book sub-consciously causes men to accept that, "I must grow, because I'm not perfect.  But she mustn't grow, because she is perfect." 

 

This insidious weakness also traps a man with this insoluble dilemma: "If I stop growing, will she get mad at me and insist I keep growing?  But if I continue to grow, while she doesn't, will she get mad because she'll expect me to want a better woman than her?  Am I doomed for stopping growth AND for continuing to grow?" 

 

Apparently you are strong at finding the negative, the downside in everything! Your comment is like saying "a study of philosophy is very useful to understand social dynamics and political happenings and a thousand other things, BUT it may make you too intelligent and miserable, so be VERY careful educating yourself on philosophy, it's DANGEROUS."

 

C'mon, dude. TWotSM is written for men so why should any women's advice be included?

 

If the girl doesn't like who you are and does not support you in your decisions, go your own way. Problem solved. How in the world is that an insoluble dilemma?

[J. D. Stembal]

Stop it, guys. I already have way too many books in my shopping cart at the moment!

 

I'm thinking more about shit tests, and which ones I've seen in the past. I want to share them for educational purposes.

 

She cancels two dates in a row, playing it off like it's no big deal. (I responded with the command respect option from the shit test tool bag.)

 

I'm going to the bathroom; I'll be right back. (She leaves the venue.) Another variation: My friends and I are all going to this hotspot. (She doesn't show.) This is not so much of a shit test as a GTFO tactic.

 

She gives you the wrong phone number or the number of her ex.

 

She lies about having a boyfriend.

 

She encourages you to shoot pool with her and then wanders off, essentially pawning your attention off on someone else. When women dance in packs, this is so you can be deflected onto other women that are less desirable to you.

 

She completely ignores you or pretends to be engrossed in her phone. (I watched this happen to a friend.)

[PatrickC]

I think shit tests can be a very healthy way for women to gage the strength of character in a man. I have a theory that given the mammoth amount of white knights and manginas out there in the real world, that shit tests have become deliberately more challenging for men. That said, the kind of shit test you are faced with can give you some useful information about a future with such a woman.

 

So the shit test is as much a judgement about her, as it is you. Except in this one and only case in gender relations, it's up to the women to start the ball rolling. Be thankful for this one small concession the ladies give us.

[Frederik]

Stop it, guys. I already have way too many books in my shopping cart at the moment!

 

I'm thinking more about shit tests, and which ones I've seen in the past. I want to share them for educational purposes.

 

I hear ya. I have 90 books on my wishlists on Amazon and it doesn't end there. [TWotSM is a must-read, though]

 

So regarding shit tests... Aren't those games basically played by 'bitches' or girls who are not truly interested in you? I mean, a 10 would never be mean to a man which she considers to be a 10, too.

I say that because, well, in another book, The Game (highly recommended), it is pretty obvious that PUAs are factually not successful with women even by lower standards, meaning they don't often get the sex and are definitely not finding a 10 for their life that way (which isn't their primary goal anyways).

 

My theory:

Girl's shit tests are qualitatively equal to PUA's routines and thus part of dysfunctional interaction.

 

Well, I think what was writing wasn't true, because those games are part of healthy relationships, too, according to Deida and it makes much sense (she wants to feel your Shiva, the divine masculine: imperturbable, totally loving, fully present, and all-pervading)

 

I guess my point is just that we have to be cautious to distinguish between shit tests and bitching (i.e. she truly isn't interested or she isn't virtuous).

[MMX2010]

 

C'mon, dude. TWotSM is written for men so why should any women's advice be included?

 

 

When a man imbibes the notion that he must grow, because he's imperfect - while also imbibing the notion that her growth is optional / unnecessary - that contrast eventually makes him feel cheated. 

 

 

 

If the girl doesn't like who you are and does not support you in your decisions, go your own way. Problem solved. How in the world is that an insoluble dilemma?

 

It's an insoluble dilemma when people accuse men (and me) of "finding the negative" when he points out that women don't want to self-improve without also accusing women of "finding the negative" when they expect men to self-improve.  And also when a man "goes his own way" by dumping a specific woman, only to find that women are socially-conditioned to repeat the same mistakes as the first woman he dumped. 

[Frederik]

When a man imbibes the notion that he must grow, because he's imperfect - while also imbibing the notion that her growth is optional / unnecessary - that contrast eventually makes him feel cheated.

You did not answer my question. Why should any women's advice be incluced in a book dealing with advice for men?

Could you please quote Deida on women's personal growth being optional?

 

It's an insoluble dilemma when people accuse men (and me) of "finding the negative" when he points out that women don't want to self-improve without also accusing women of "finding the negative" when they expect men to self-improve.

 

Where does Deida point out that women don't want to self improve?

 

And also when a man "goes his own way" by dumping a specific woman, only to find that women are socially-conditioned to repeat the same mistakes as the first woman he dumped. 

 

You assume women are socially-conditioned to repeat the same mistakes as the first woman.

That implies either

1. All women behave the same. I don't agree with that.

or

2. The man chooses the same girl with a different name, in which case their seperation would have been totally unnecessary. This is the man's fault and a soluable dilemma.

[MMX2010]

*delete*

[MrCapitalism]

Is this not a variant of "hard to get"?

 

 

But apparently, there is a "shit test" that looks like that

I think the technical term for this behavior is "Bitch Shield."

[MMX2010]

You did not answer my question. Why should any women's advice be incluced in a book dealing with advice for men?

 

 

Could you please quote Deida on women's personal growth being optional?

 

 

Where does Deida point out that women don't want to self improve?

 

You're asking me so many ultra-literal, small-focused questions that you're missing the bigger picture.

 

Re-read your "She wants to feel your shiva!" summary.

 

The most erotic moment for a woman is feeling that you are Shiva, the divine masculine: imperturbable, totally loving, fully present, and all-pervading. She cannot move you, because you already are what you are, with or without her. She cannot scare you away, because you already penetrate her in fearless love, pervading her heart and body. She cannot distract you, because your one-pointed commitment to truth will not bend to her wiles. Feeling this hugeness of love and freedom in you, she can trust you, utterly, and surrender her testing in celebration of love. Until she wants to feel you as Shiva again. And then the testing will begin anewanew. In fact, it is precisely when you are most Shiva-like that she will most test you. Perhaps you have been working toward some financial goal, and finally you have succeeded. After months or years of effort, you have creatively earned a large amount of money. You feel happy, full, and successful. You feel great. You come home to your woman and want to share the news with her. "I just made a million dollars today." "That's nice." "That's nice!!?? You know how hard I've been working for this." "I know. It feels like I haven't seen you in months. Did you remember to pick up the milk on the way home?" "Oh, sorry" I forgot. But who cares? We could buy a dairy farm now?" "I asked you to pick up the milk three times this morning, and I put a note on your briefcase. How could you forget?" "I said I'm sorry. Look, I'll go get the damn milk..." Why is she being this way? Because she simply wants to deflate your success? No. She is challenging you because your success doesn't mean **** to her, unless you are free and loving. And if you are free and loving, nothing she says can collapse you. She wants to feel you are uncollapsable, so she pokes you in your weak spot. Of course she knows how much this moment of success means to you. This is precisely why she is negating it. Not because she wants to hurt you. But because she wants to feel Shiva. She wants to feel your strength. She wants to feel that your happiness is not dependent on her response, nor on you making a million dollars. She wants to feel you are a superior man."

 

Of course the answer is agree and amplify, ignore the test, and change the topic! Grab her in your arms, pin her to the couch and say: "You want cream, I will get you some cream."

 

-----------------------

 

Notice how the entire focus is: "She wants.  She needs.  She wants.  She needs."  And notice, also, how the entire solution is: "He understands, and he gives." 

 

But nothing in Deida's advice implies that sometimes a woman doesn't deserve to get exactly what she wants, nor that sometimes a good man refuses to give a woman exactly what she wants, nor that sometimes a woman's character becomes stronger by depriving her of what she wants.  (The latter omission is hilarious, because every woman in every society loudly admits that a man's character is built by restricting / controlling his wants - so why isn't a woman's character sufficiently strengthened in this way?) 

 

------------------

 

Notice also how "basic sexual jealousy" is never submitted as a plausible mechanism for her testing. 

 

Deida describes her shit testing in noble spiritual terms, "You are the divine masculine: imperturbable, totally loving, fully present, and all-pervading.  Your success doesn't mean **** to her, unless you are free and loving. And if you are free and loving, nothing she says can collapse you. She wants to feel you are uncollapsable, so she pokes you in your weak spot. Of course she knows how much this moment of success means to you. This is precisely why she is negating it. Not because she wants to hurt you. But because she wants to feel Shiva. She wants to feel your strength. She wants to feel that your happiness is not dependent on her response, nor on you making a million dollars. She wants to feel you are a superior man."

 

But I can easily describe her shit-testing in sexual jealousy terms.  "The more successful you become, the more likely other women will flirt with you.  So she shit-tests you, simply to determine whether you'll move towards her or away from her.  Moving towards her makes her feel better, and examples of this include laughing her shit test away and having sex with her immediately.  But moving away from her makes her feel bad, and examples of this include pointing out that a less jealous woman would celebrate his success, leaving her silently to celebrate your success with your much more appreciative male friends, and/or leaving her silently to have a romantic candlelight dinner with a more appreciative female companion." 

 

My sexual jealousy explanation has the benefit of being completely devoid of Mystical Spiritual Language, which (I think) makes it the more-likely-to-be-true explanation. 

 

But the most important thing is that you don't see either: (1) Deida's complete inability to apply disclaimers and limitations to female wants.  (2) Deida's complete inability to advise men to deny women's wants, (not even occasionally, let alone as a regular pattern).  (3) Deida's inability to justify why a woman needs all of this satisfaction, nor separate Women Who Deserve It from Women Who Don't. 

 

He simply implies through consistent omission that a superior man must give everything, all of the time, to whomever he commits to, without asking "Is this arrangement satisfying to me?"  And the only solution you proposed was, "Well, if he gets unhappy, he can just leave!" - which omits the possibilities of: (1) Maybe he can point out how unappreciative she is, and hope she'll become a better, stronger, less needy woman OR (2) Maybe he can point out the ways in which society encourages women to become ultra needy and exploitive.  OR (3) Maybe he can marry a woman from a much more female-limiting society. 

[kalmia]

Many people, including women, have limited social/ emotional energy. I'm pretty introverted so I understand this. If women choose men then they primarily have to be in filter mode. Their focus must be on limiting who they socialize with unless they are super outgoing extrovert. The more attractive they are the higher their filters must be. Imagine an attractive woman has a man pass by her every couple minutes. How many would have sex with her if given the chance? Could she have learned that certain behaviors of hers give certain guys the wrong idea? How much of her time would be consumed with dealing with men who are after her if she gave every one a solid shot? Is she allowed to focus on other things or must she always be a performer?

 

Another thing? How serious or playful is your demeanor? Women often mirror a man's mood.

[Kevin Beal]

Another thing? How serious or playful is your demeanor? Women often mirror a man's mood.

I give most people a gentle and sincere smile when we make eye contact, and then I try and make them laugh if that smile has the intended effect of relaxing them. This was one of those instances, except we never really made eye contact in the first place.

[Frederik]

Notice how the entire focus is: "She wants.  She needs.  She wants.  She needs."  And notice, also, how the entire solution is: "He understands, and he gives." 

 

But nothing in Deida's advice implies that sometimes a woman doesn't deserve to get exactly what she wants, nor that sometimes a good man refuses to give a woman exactly what she wants, nor that sometimes a woman's character becomes stronger by depriving her of what she wants.  (The latter omission is hilarious, because every woman in every society loudly admits that a man's character is built by restricting / controlling his wants - so why isn't a woman's character sufficiently strengthened in this way?)

 

I absolutely agree to what you wrote. Where we probably disagree on is whether style of teaching is reasonable or beneficial. I actually don't have a problem with it, and I don't know exactly why but this might be some reasons:

• The Woman of a Superior Man lets her man guide her and she will quickly find out what she can ask for.
• The book is about excellence. In an excellent relationship, wants are generally met; unreasonable wants are never expressed (thus refusal is unnecessary).
• A Superior Woman is actually not supposed to be strong in the masculine sense - she only strongly expresses her feminine essence. In my opinion that's one of the key elements of Deida's philosophy: The Superior Man is supposed to fully develop and express his masculine force and direction, so that her woman can fully trust him and can let go of her masculine capacity. (Please note that in this sense, the book is highly empowering for women.)

I think my last point might be the most important one where our opinions might differ. I totally respect your opinion!

 

 

But I can easily describe her shit-testing in sexual jealousy terms. [...]

 

My sexual jealousy explanation has the benefit of being completely devoid of Mystical Spiritual Language, which (I think) makes it the more-likely-to-be-true explanation.

 

Thanks, I really like your explanation. It makes a lot of sense to me and I will definitely think about that more.

 

 

But the most important thing is that you don't see either: (1) Deida's complete inability to apply disclaimers and limitations to female wants.  (2) Deida's complete inability to advise men to deny women's wants, (not even occasionally, let alone as a regular pattern).  (3) Deida's inability to justify why a woman needs all of this satisfaction, nor separate Women Who Deserve It from Women Who Don't.

 

I absolutely see your point. Please refer to my bullet points above for why I don't think this is a problem.

 

 

He simply implies through consistent omission that a superior man must give everything, all of the time, to whomever he commits to, without asking "Is this arrangement satisfying to me?"  And the only solution you proposed was, "Well, if he gets unhappy, he can just leave!" - which omits the possibilities of: (1) Maybe he can point out how unappreciative she is, and hope she'll become a better, stronger, less needy woman OR (2) Maybe he can point out the ways in which society encourages women to become ultra needy and exploitive.  OR (3) Maybe he can marry a woman from a much more female-limiting society.

 

Yes, my "solution" is definitely not the only one. I can't say much about whether Deida should have included all those aspects, though what's for certain is that your suggestions are very essential and worth discussing.

 

 

PS: I'm a bit confused - is your mega long brightly colored post deleted and this post followed shortly after? Sorry that I did not answer right away -- I simply was not willing to go through such a lengthy discussion back then.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Frederik Dortmund