I think it is time I gave up on my brother.

[DaVinci]

I'll try to explain the issues I have been having with him as simply as possible. Any thoughts on this issue are welcome.

 

Long story short, we disagree about our parents and their responsibility in our lives. I say that our parents were completely responsible for our early lives and we are now responsible for fixing any damages they caused and improving oursleves, and my brother says they are not responsible for anything. That what happened happened and I could have been born as a starving kid in Africa, so I shouldn't even bother thinking about it. That I am alive and that is what matters.

 

Now while I don't diasgree with trying to put my life into perspective it has nothing to do with the crap our parents did, nor does it mean that I should have a relationship with them or be okay with it. This is where our arguments get heated and he usually hangs up on me. He continues to have a relationship with our mom where as I stopped talking to her and when I question why he wants to have a relationship with someone who he knows treated him like crap, and who he admits he doesn't love he gets mad. He claims that "You have a problem with mom that I don't" and when I try to correct him and tell him that it is not "a problem", just that our mom is responsible for her behavior, and how she treated us he responds with this "They did the best they could" argument or otherwise just doesn't want to hear it.

 

So in this process I've found that I just can't talk with my brother about things that genuiinely matter. We can talk about movies, or books and agree, but when we get to our family I feel like he is just choosing to ignore that they were bad parents to make himself feel better and I should do the same. I honestly feel like it might be time to cut my losses and stop talking to him. Because if we can't talk about things that really matter then how much of a relationship do we really have?

 

So if anyone has any thoughts on this issue please respond. Has anyone been through something similar? Is there a better way I can approach someone who is difficult to talk to? How many times do you keep talking to someone before you decide to stop wasting your time?

[Matt D]

Hi DaVinci,

 

 

Has anyone been through something similar?

 

Yes I've been through something similar with my brother, which could mean that what I'm about to tell you is skewed towards my experience. I just want to say that up front.

 

I assume when you say you can't talk about things that genuinely matter you are talking about things like honesty, integrity, and responsibility. I also assume from what you wrote that you are able to talk about these values but he repeats back the family propaganda and shuts down the conversation when it become uncomfortable. I know this situation and it sounds similar to what my brother said to me. "Sure, things weren't perfect but why are you being so sensitive? Grow up and move on." I took his advice. I got professional help and I moved on from my relationships with him and my family.

 

I held out hope that my brother would change for about a year. Ironically he introduced me to anarchy and thereby Freedomain Radio and thereby self-knowledge, so I felt gratitude towards him even though I know these events happened largely by chance. He didn't enjoy listening to the podcasts about the family but was intrigued by abstract concepts like DROs, things that would not have an actual effect in his life. Even though we could talk about things that were philosophical (like the predation of the state) I couldn't be around him without self-erasing because there was simply too much history between us.

 

 

How many times do you keep talking to someone before you decide to stop wasting your time?

 

Stef said once that relationships fundamentally never change. If two people in a relationship are committed to growth in themselves from the beginning then the fact that they are always changing never changes. My question for you would be -- if you knew your relationship with your brother would never change would you still want to have that relationship? It's easy to blame yourself: "If I would only open my heart wider then maybe he would react differently," we tell ourselves. Indeed, RTR will help you gain certainty, but don't be tempted to self-attack because he rejects the real you.

 

Will I ever talk to my brother again? I don't know. I know that right now I don't have any desire to pick up the phone and call him. My guess is that when my parents are dead he may pursue some personal growth if he hasn't already inflicted the same insecure tendencies on his own kids. I'm not placing any bets.

 

I really wish you the best on this difficult issue. It sounds corny, but whatever you decide I know you'll make the right choice.

 

M

[TheSchoolofAthens]

If someone habitually chooses to avoid topics that are of great importance to you, then that person does not share your values. You can't build a relationship with someone unless you share values - of course this depends on the type of relationship. I can do business with others, for example work as an employee along side other employees, but this because we share values to some extent in regards to the business we work for, i.e. we both want to make money through the company and work together to do so.

But family relationships are not business relationships. Family relationships tend to be an undeserved "I love you." This "I love you" usually derives from the fact that the individuals are related in blood and not as a result of sharing values and seeing virtue in one another. 

I am thankful for my childhood. I went to public school, which I would never send any child to, but I still spent loads of hours with my family - camping trips, hiking, fishing, swimming, wrestling, etc. We did so much as kids, it really was a blast. I don't really need to say that it wasn't perfect because no family is perfect, but I did look up to my parents and enjoy them a lot as a kid because they were very playful and caring. Unfortunately as I got older, my relationship with my whole family started to deteriorate. I didn't like public school anymore and I began to feel trapped in it, I didn't like how my parents lacked growth and work ethic, I found that I couldn't talk to them about my beliefs without feeling like I was either talking to myself (to my mom who didn't understand to much) or to bullies. (my dad and brother)

I realized that even with my childhood which I am very thankful for, relationships which lack freedom to communicate and a sharing of values will deteriorate and turn into nothing more than memories covered in dust.

[DaVinci]

I assume when you say you can't talk about things that genuinely matter you are talking about things like honesty, integrity, and responsibility. I also assume from what you wrote that you are able to talk about these values but he repeats back the family propaganda and shuts down the conversation when it become uncomfortable.

 

 

Stef said once that relationships fundamentally never change. If two people in a relationship are committed to growth in themselves from the beginning then the fact that they are always changing never changes. My question for you would be -- if you knew your relationship with your brother would never change would you still want to have that relationship? It's easy to blame yourself: "If I would only open my heart wider then maybe he would react differently," we tell ourselves. Indeed, RTR will help you gain certainty, but don't be tempted to self-attack because he rejects the real you.

Thanks for the response!

 

It is not that he repeats back family propaganda specifically as much as he repeats the same general "Hey, you're alive aren't you? So why does it matter what happened as a kid" type statement. It is being used as a way to gloss over our parents responsibility and, I think, craft for himself a view of the world that in his eyes can't be countered by truth, because if there is no such thing as truth then every opinion is just as valid as every other opinion.

 

I think your point about self attack is something I have been trying to watch out for as I have caught myself doing it after talking with him, which I think is one of the problems I have with him. He is maniplative in that way. As I said he tries to play up morality and repsponsibility as entirely subjective, and so I have caught myself after talking with him attacking myself for being bad, or wrong. It's not something I do anymore since I have become conscious of it, but it is still there, if that makes sense.

If someone habitually chooses to avoid topics that are of great importance to you, then that person does not share your values. You can't build a relationship with someone unless you share values.

 

Unfortunately as I got older, my relationship with my whole family started to deteriorate. I didn't like public school anymore and I began to feel trapped in it, I didn't like how my parents lacked growth and work ethic, I found that I couldn't talk to them about my beliefs without feeling like I was either talking to myself (to my mom who didn't understand to much) or to bullies. (my dad and brother)

I realized that even with my childhood which I am very thankful for, relationships which lack freedom to communicate and a sharing of values will deteriorate and turn into nothing more than memories covered in dust.

Thanks for responding!

 

That is what I have seen in the past few years. Someone who doesn't share my values. As I mentioned in the post above he is manipulative, and so not sharing values might not be a big deal if he wasn't manipulating sitatuions that involve us both. Our relationship really isn't much more than bringing out those dusty memories to look at them without discussing anything that created them or how the people who were responsible are responsible.

[Carl Green]

Something I thought of while reading through this is that "giving up" seems like there was an expectation in there somewhere. You've given up on him changing (or some other better word) to what you'd expect him to react with.  Regardless of whether or not this is the case, you'd do well to remove expectations from things like this.  Personally, I try to judge the virtue of others and interact with them accordingly.

 

I guess in that sense, you'd not be giving up on your brother, but giving up on trying to change his mind about your parents.

 

Don't give up on people, just interact with them according to how you perceive them.

[DaVinci]

Something I thought of while reading through this is that "giving up" seems like there was an expectation in there somewhere. You've given up on him changing (or some other better word) to what you'd expect him to react with.  Regardless of whether or not this is the case, you'd do well to remove expectations from things like this.  Personally, I try to judge the virtue of others and interact with them accordingly.

 

I guess in that sense, you'd not be giving up on your brother, but giving up on trying to change his mind about your parents.

 

Don't give up on people, just interact with them according to how you perceive them.

Thanks for the response.

 

Well, I percieve him as someone who claims to be reasonable but really isn't. This might not be a problem if he was only behaving that way towards himself. The issue, however, has become that he talks about how he thinks the world should be and should behave, and how he thinks I should be and behave, and yet he is not open to hearing the truth about our parents, he is not open to hearing about his own behavior, and he judges anyone who does not conform to his view of the world as bad. Bad friends, bad family, or just bad people in general. That is why I'm aksing for the views of other people on this subject. It seems odd to me to keep engaging with someone who I know is hypocritical. Wouldn't I be engaging in a form of self torture by continuing to interact with him?

[Carl Green]

Wouldn't I be engaging in a form of self torture by continuing to interact with him?

 

Yes, but I wasn't suggesting you continue to do so. I'm only suggesting you don't expect anyone to act in any way. Only interact with them according to their actions. How you choose to, or choose not to, interact with anyone is your call.

[DaVinci]

Yes, but I wasn't suggesting you continue to do so. I'm only suggesting you don't expect anyone to act in any way. Only interact with them according to their actions. How you choose to, or choose not to, interact with anyone is your call.

Agreed.