TheW_nderer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 My bf and I have recently had a rough patch in our relationship and it has made him question whether he simply loves me or is actually "in love with me". The story is of course complicated, but it mostly boils down to our both knowing that we love each other(each of our virtues), yet, he is wanting to step back from the romantic side of our relationship to ensure that we are compatible as friends. He explained that after we work on some communication issues, he will then consider whether or not we should re-engage the romantic side of our relationship. For me, I feel completely in love with him and and feel that pushing the romantic side of our relationship might be detrimental, though I understand that we are both fairly young and he is wanting to be certain of his romantic feelings before we take more serious steps in our relationship. So my question is, how does one know for certain if they are romantically in love with someone or if they simply love each other for their virtues? I mean, I can love my friends for their virtues, but have no romantic feelings towards them. My bf and I definitely love each other, and are sexually attracted to each other, and are working on always being open and honest about how we feel without judgement. So, what is he actually considering? Input from the guys would be awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. D. Stembal Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 How do you define romance? How does your boyfriend define it? What is the context surrounding the rough patch in your relationship? What are the virtues that you share? You don't have to provide an exhaustive explanation or any explanation here, but these are questions you need to discuss again with him. The situation, as you describe it, does not make too much sense on its face. A couple, who love each other for their virtues, probably aren't going to voluntarily decide to stop the romance. What, if anything, has changed in your lives since you started dating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 How do you define romance? How does your boyfriend define it? What is the context surrounding the rough patch in your relationship? What are the virtues that you share? You don't have to provide an exhaustive explanation or any explanation here, but these are questions you need to discuss again with him. The situation, as you describe it, does not make too much sense on its face. A couple, who love each other for their virtues, probably aren't going to voluntarily decide to stop the romance. What, if anything, has changed in your lives since you started dating? Hi thanks for your response! For me I have defined a romantic relationship as one in which I am responding to the virtues I see in him reflecting those that I value, as well the desire to be present in each others lives(emotionally and physically) above others. He seems to define the romance portion as more of a feeling that is an addition to friendship(which is my definition minus the physical). Therefore he feels that perhaps the romantic feeling may not be completely necessary, and is something he wants to consider further because he feels that a failed romantic relationship may end in the end of our friendship and he doesn't want that. The virtues we share honesty, in that we strive to be completely honest with each other no matter what. Courage, in that we both have lived lives of adventure and are unafraid to take chances in regards to moving to new places and experiencing new things. Integrity, in that we both know each other's values and try to ensure that we never compromise ourselves for others(including each other). And though I strongly rely on reason to guide my choices, he is much more in touch with his emotions and has helped me realize the importance that both play in being a healthy person. Sometimes I do fear he values feeling too much, which may be a reason this issue has come up. The rough patch involved our moving to different cities. We met teaching abroad and lived in the same country for 2 years only to later return home and move to different cities. We decided to continue our relationship while home, but the distance really wore on us and made us question how deeply we care for each other in a romantic way because our communication started slacking and the stress of readjusting to being home added a lot of pressure. And this really blew up over the last couple of weeks with us considering ending it. However, we decided that we needed to work on our communication and we are committed to making things work. So I guess at this point, the distance has changed and our environment. I guess, it's just hard now to understand what a romantic relationship is, if not just a feeling attached to love and if it isn't, what is it. And how can someone determine if they have romantic and not just love for each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. D. Stembal Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Distance is really trying on a relationship, especially one that may involve raising a family at some point. I don't think it's going to a be an issue of virtues so much as a difficulty to continue growing together instead of apart. People change a lot as they age, and you can't negotiate these changes very well over Skype. Foremost of all the issues with long distance, how do you manage to continue a sexual relationship if you and your boyfriend should want to initiate one again? If you guys have the virtues and are thrilled with each other, the big question is what are the costs of moving to the same city to live together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 We do try to visit each other when possible. For example, in the past few months I have visited him twice and he has visited me once. Every time we do meet up the sexual chemistry is still there, which begs the question, is the romantic aspect merely sexual? I'm considering moving to be near him, but there's still this issue in his mind as to whether or not the romantic aspect of our relationship is intact, and if it's not that will definitely influence whether or not I move closer to him. If he is unclear about whether we should continue things romantically, then moving far away to be with him will not be my top priority. Do you feel that moving in together would be a good way to gauge our romantic compatibility? Or should we be sure beforehand to ensure no mixed feelings are involved(perhaps just lust). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm considering moving to be near him, but there's still this issue in his mind as to whether or not the romantic aspect of our relationship is intact, and if it's not that will definitely influence whether or not I move closer to him. If he is unclear about whether we should continue things romantically, then moving far away to be with him will not be my top priority. Sounds on the surface like you need some clarity on the relationship before you make such a move. Which I gather you understand to some degree. I'm also very conscious that you have come to a public forum to discuss this matter. Which by the way is fine, but it does beg the question as to how much (productive) communication you guys are actually having with each other. I'm not suggesting this is a bad thing, just that it potentially exposes a serious fault line in the relationship. I do think in these cases it's reasonable to get some honest answers from a partner. After all this is as much about your life as it is his. That said, approaching such a request means you should be prepared for the worst outcome as well. If you're already clear how you feel about him and your future together, then the onus (virtue wise) is on him to respond to that. I hope that helps and best wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncelot Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I feel for you. I am in the process of something similar, only she broke up with me first, then decided later she wanted to be friends. We are in the process of trying to define "friends" at the moment. I believe I know where you are coming from in that, for me, "in love" is more of a state, and a reflection of how much I value her. Through many discussions I have discovered that she for the most part currently is confusing "in love" with lust. She does love me, value me, respect me, is physically attracted to me, yet continues to say she is not "in love". Which confused and frustrated me for quite a bit... In essence, I think, we are in different places in our self-knowledge path. Right now we are working or re-building the friendship, working on communication, and just enjoying each others presence. Distance can cause allot of issues... I have been lucky enough to not have experienced that... I agree that you should not move "for him"; and especially not with everything in flux. I agree with the advice above, some good discussion, find the heart of the disconnect. It could be that you two are seeing the same things, but defining them differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Sounds on the surface like you need some clarity on the relationship before you make such a move. Which I gather you understand to some degree. I'm also very conscious that you have come to a public forum to discuss this matter. Which by the way is fine, but it does beg the question as to how much (productive) communication you guys are actually having with each other. I'm not suggesting this is a bad thing, just that it potentially exposes a serious fault line in the relationship. I do think in these cases it's reasonable to get some honest answers from a partner. After all this is as much about your life as it is his. That said, approaching such a request means you should be prepared for the worst outcome as well. If you're already clear how you feel about him and your future together, then the onus (virtue wise) is on him to respond to that. I hope that helps and best wishes. Thank you for your response. I guess in posting this, I was hoping for some better ideas to the nature of romantic love so that my bf and I are better to define it in terms that we can both agree upon. The most confusing part is the romance. We've been talking more about this, but this is still a glossy area for us. And though I'd like to move there to be near him, he says he wants to be sure I move there for myself not just to be near him. I feel for you. I am in the process of something similar, only she broke up with me first, then decided later she wanted to be friends. We are in the process of trying to define "friends" at the moment. I believe I know where you are coming from in that, for me, "in love" is more of a state, and a reflection of how much I value her. Through many discussions I have discovered that she for the most part currently is confusing "in love" with lust. She does love me, value me, respect me, is physically attracted to me, yet continues to say she is not "in love". Which confused and frustrated me for quite a bit... In essence, I think, we are in different places in our self-knowledge path. Right now we are working or re-building the friendship, working on communication, and just enjoying each others presence. Distance can cause allot of issues... I have been lucky enough to not have experienced that... I agree that you should not move "for him"; and especially not with everything in flux. I agree with the advice above, some good discussion, find the heart of the disconnect. It could be that you two are seeing the same things, but defining them differently. Thanks for the response! I'm glad someone can relate, but I hope this is not the case for us. I would really like a romantic future with him and am wondering if it's unhealthy. If he doesn't understand what romance is maybe he doesn't know if he or isn't "in love". And how can you test that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 How old are you? How old is he? And how long have you been dating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 We're both turning 25 this year. And we've been dating for 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Is he interested in anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 There is a girl that he admitted to having feelings for, but he told her that he had to cut things off with her in order to work on making our relationship work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 There is a girl that he admitted to having feelings for, but he told her that he had to cut things off with her in order to work on making our relationship work. Were you there when he told her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 No, I wasn't there. I can only take his word for it. And his actions following that seem to indicate that he was being sincere. He gave me the rehearsed version of what he would say and then let me know what happened after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 My opinion, which may be wrong, is that this whole situation smells bad. He sounds like he wants to have an affair, while keeping you on the back-burner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Oh, that would be tragic! Do you think he's placed his romantic feelings elsewhere and isn't really confused at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Oh, that would be tragic! Do you think he's placed his romantic feelings elsewhere and isn't really confused at all? I've some very "old school, misogynistic" views, one of which is, "Chicks can't help but be confused, and can't help but phrase their confusion in words-clashing-with-actions." So when a woman says, "I want to step away from the romantic aspect of our relationship to ensure that we're compatible as friends.", I roll my eyes skyward and say, "Oh well. Chicks be chicks, after all." But when a man uses that language? He's either the weakest specimen you've ever seen, or he's just being manipulative. (I simply can't accept that men can be that confused, and use that kind of confusing language.) So take my advice with a large cube of salt. But still..... Jeez..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 I've some very "old school, misogynistic" views, one of which is, "Chicks can't help but be confused, and can't help but phrase their confusion in words-clashing-with-actions." So when a woman says, "I want to step away from the romantic aspect of our relationship to ensure that we're compatible as friends.", I roll my eyes skyward and say, "Oh well. Chicks be chicks, after all." But when a man uses that language? He's either the weakest specimen you've ever seen, or he's just being manipulative. (I simply can't accept that men can be that confused, and use that kind of confusing language.) So take my advice with a large cube of salt. But still..... Jeez..... Wow, It's strange, but throughout our relationship it's been this way. I've been around him for so long that this is not very surprising. He uses his emotions a lot and is often blown about by whims and ideas, while I've been more of the reasonable one. I understand what you're saying though this is not so out of character for him. But it is a first in regards to our relationship. I guess I'm still just confused about where romance and love split. How do you tend to make that distinction when it comes down to it? As a male, any advice on how to go about this? What is the most effective way to approach someone who is afraid of commitment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 As a male, any advice on how to go about this? What is the most effective way to approach someone who is afraid of commitment? I have to say, that I tend to agree with MMX here. Men are rarely so ambiguous. The only way you can approach this situation successfully is by letting him know exactly what you want from him. If your desire is to have children with him, then that is what you ask of him. It's then up to him to decide whether that is what he really wants with you. I think the confusion comes when people aren't really looking for their needs to be met. That they are unconsciously (perhaps) avoiding them. Ask yourself what do you want of this man and then ask him for it. If your needs don't match his, then I would suggest you stop wasting your time and look for a relationship that is prepared to meet your needs as much as his own. And though I'd like to move there to be near him, he says he wants to be sure I move there for myself not just to be near him. This just further fuels MMX's earlier suspicions. Ask yourself this, why on earth would you not move to a place, if it wasn't to be with him. What other possible motivation could you have? (this is a rhetorical question mind) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 A useful anecdote perhaps on my past relationship history. I had a young lady that I fell in love with in my mid to late twenties that I met whilst travelling in Australia. She was Scottish and I am English. I remember feeling perfectly happy with this lady and that she was indeed the one for me. I made plans to try and be closer to her. Which started by a possible move to Edinburgh from London. Big move for us Brits, less so for you Americans perhaps. That said, she said the exact same thing to me as your boyfriend said to you. As it turned out I ended up moving much closer to Cambridge where she was commencing a teacher training program and I was going to art school. Again she raised the issue about me going to Cambridge for myself and not for her, but I mostly ignored this by kidding myself that art school was my reason. As it turned out during my time there, she was unfaithful to me on two occasions. At one time almost right from under my nose. Needless to say I ended the relationship, as I was deeply hurt by this. But looking back now, she was giving me all the right hints. I was just ignoring them and not asserting my own needs with her. I was just fantasising about my needs being met. I cannot count the amount of times I've seen this happen in other relationships. In fact I even let it happen a second time, but too a much lesser degree that time. So I say all this from a position of some experience, asserting your needs in a romantic relationship is a must if you want to be happy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 A useful anecdote perhaps on my past relationship history. I had a young lady that I fell in love with in my mid to late twenties that I met whilst travelling in Australia. She was Scottish and I am English. I remember feeling perfectly happy with this lady and that she was indeed the one for me. I made plans to try and be closer to her. Which started by a possible move to Edinburgh from London. Big move for us Brits, less so for you Americans perhaps. That said, she said the exact same thing to me as your boyfriend said to you. As it turned out I ended up moving much closer to Cambridge where she was commencing a teacher training program and I was going to art school. Again she raised the issue about me going to Cambridge for myself and not for her, but I mostly ignored this by kidding myself that art school was my reason. As it turned out during my time there, she was unfaithful to me on two occasions. At one time almost right from under my nose. Needless to say I ended the relationship, as I was deeply hurt by this. But looking back now, she was giving me all the right hints. I was just ignoring them and not asserting my own needs with her. I was just fantasising about my needs being met. I cannot count the amount of times I've seen this happen in other relationships. In fact I even let it happen a second time, but too a much lesser degree that time. So I say all this from a position of some experience, asserting your needs in a romantic relationship is a must if you want to be happy. Wow, That's eerily similar to my situation. I guess I have to be honest with myself about my motivations and whether or not he is as great as I think he is. I'm fairly certain he isn't being unfaithful right now, but I think it could be possible that he is wanting to slowly kill the relationship with the distance so he won't have to have the guilt of dumping me flat out. I guess having this idea that he would do something like that is kind of shocking considering our history together, and maybe our history is blinding me to the details of what's going on right now. From all of you all's input, it sounds like I'm being slowly dumped lol. It's not the most pleasant feeling, and I will check for certain from here soon by explaining all of my needs or expectations from him and seeing if he has any interest at all of fulfilling them. Thank you all for your advice and input. I appreciate that you've taken the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I guess I'm still just confused about where romance and love split. How do you tend to make that distinction when it comes down to it? I not only have rather old-school misogynistic views of women and society, but I'm also a womanizer-in-training. My goal is to have either a steady rotation of supportive women whom I'm not committed to OR a stable, loving wife and a mistress on the side. So take my perspective with a large amount of skepticism, if need be. I'm guessing that there's someone else, most likely the woman you mentioned earlier. I'm also guessing that IF he's dropping her out of his life, it's because "he's supposed to". Two-point-five decades of social conditioning have made it clear that he's "not allowed" to have a mistress and a girlfriend at the same time, but he doubts the social conditioning now that he has two women in his life, both of whom he desires. If a woman wanted ME to stop seeing my mistress, I'd conclude, "Oh, she really, really likes me, and wants a deeper, committed relationship but what do I get in return for surrendering my mistress?" From there, we'd negotiate. He, however, almost certainly doesn't have the skills to negotiate, because he's been socially conditioned to never want a mistress and a girlfriend at the same time. But he also doesn't see "a good reason" to give up the other girl, so he feels enslaved. At best, he can only delay his decision, but that's not the same as negotiating for what he wants. (I'd model the questions I'd ask during the negotiation process, but: (1) They'll probably upset you. And (2) You probably don't want him to want to negotiate with you anyway... ) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I'm fairly certain he isn't being unfaithful right now, but I think it could be possible that he is wanting to slowly kill the relationship with the distance so he won't have to have the guilt of dumping me flat out. There is something that Stefan has said over the years that can sometimes seem trite upon first hearing it, but it's something I've begun to appreciate and understand much more in recent years. It's that, "you already know everything there is to know about him". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 *delete* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 I not only have rather old-school misogynistic views of women and society, but I'm also a womanizer-in-training. My goal is to have either a steady rotation of supportive women whom I'm not committed to OR a stable, loving wife and a mistress on the side. So take my perspective with a large amount of skepticism, if need be. I'm guessing that there's someone else, most likely the woman you mentioned earlier. I'm also guessing that IF he's dropping her out of his life, it's because "he's supposed to". Two-point-five decades of social conditioning have made it clear that he's "not allowed" to have a mistress and a girlfriend at the same time, but he doubts the social conditioning now that he has two women in his life, both of whom he desires. If a woman wanted ME to stop seeing my mistress, I'd conclude, "Oh, she really, really likes me, and wants a deeper, committed relationship but what do I get in return for surrendering my mistress?" From there, we'd negotiate. He, however, almost certainly doesn't have the skills to negotiate, because he's been socially conditioned to never want a mistress and a girlfriend at the same time. But he also doesn't see "a good reason" to give up the other girl, so he feels enslaved. At best, he can only delay his decision, but that's not the same as negotiating for what he wants. (I'd model the questions I'd ask during the negotiation process, but: (1) They'll probably upset you. And (2) You probably don't want him to want to negotiate with you anyway... ) This makes since and I don't downplay your input because of your misogynistic tendencies! Strangely, he made the choice to not completely dump her out of his life, but to downgrade their relationship to friendship status, because there was a huge blow up with her when he explained to her that he intended on working things out with me. They are still friends, and he openly tells me when he's going to talk to her, and what he plans to talk about because she has some seemingly useful connections for him in his prospective career. He has told me that he came to the choice to work on things with me on his own, and intends to do the best to make it work and so far, I can't say he isn't trying. He doesn't seem as interested in her romantically as he did before in that I went to visit him around the time that he broke the news to me that he might be in love with her and during that time he was so broken up. He later explained that she gave him more emotional support that I did and that made him feel special and begin to care about her. I know I have a huge flaw in neglecting my and other's emotional needs so I told him that I would work on it with him and it is something that I really want. So when I told him that, he immediately said, "I have to tell her that we are going to work on us" which made me happy and pissed her off. He went to visit her where she lives because he was planning on it even before he told me all of this, and when he went there he said he talked with her a lot about how they need to just be friends and yet in one instance she tried to kiss him. He texted me and told me what happened and how he refused and how that made him even more confident that he should totally commit to me. He's said all of these things, and has actively tried to work on our communication, but I think he has become very hesitant to make any commitments now. So, I'm at a loss. I asked him yesterday if I could visit him in a few weeks and he seemed genuinely happy about it, so maybe when I go there we can connect again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Your descriptions have clarified things for me quite a bit, but I'm curious about two things. (1) To your knowledge, has he ever slept with her? (2) How does her physical appearance compare to yours? Is she prettier than you, and by how much? And is she much younger, much older, or similar age as you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 Yeah, I'm sorry, there are just so many details that I'm trying to pick and choose which ones seem relevant. He admitted that they had a sexual encounter which wasn't intercourse, but sexual in nature when she visited him. That was before I went there. I asked him if I had lived near him if that would have happened and he said, "no." He's always said that I'm the most beautiful girl he has ever met and when I visited him he was very complimentary of my appearance; saying that I look the best I every had. I believe we're all about the same age. I asked him if he thought she was beautiful and he said, "I think she is." I haven't really seen a picture of her up close, but she seems pretty. I don't usually compare myself to others in the regard, but I think their connection was more emotional. I'm just so confused as to how only a few months ago we were talking about moving in together, possibly getting married, and having children, to working on our friendship and possibly not living near each other. I am going to visit him and asked if he is still interested in sexual things with me and he said, yes. So I'm just so fucking confused about what romance consists of if not this! But I also, feel like I'm putting more pressure on the situation than I really want. I don't really care about all of these future plans, I just want to be with him now, even if we aren't together forever. He had history with this girl before and she broke his heart right before we got back together and then suddenly reappeared. I think this may have something to do with his conflicted feelings for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Alright, I know that my womanizer-in-training perspective isn't popular in FDR, but I think it's extremely helpful here. Most men who sleep with more than one woman are trying to build the best woman by extracting the best qualities of two different women. The usual split is Woman A is tough, self-starter, financially secure, older, good job prospects, more emotionally stable - but is a bit emotionally aloof, and constantly insecure because she wonders why (despite all of her possessions) she's still single. And Woman B is weak, younger, financially insecure, and emotionally erratic but more supportive and compassionate. But another common split is Woman A is virtuous in many ways but isn't all that attractive. While Woman B isn't very virtuous at all, but is extremely attractive. I don't think the majority of people should get involved in multiple-person partnerships, but I do think society's massive injunctions against such relationships, (coupled with the "Either stay with one person, or dump them so they can find someone else!" mantra), make people unwilling to explore such relationships. And this unwillingness makes men terrible at explaining their feelings when they're in conflict between multiple women. This inability leads to wrongful-explanations that are socially acceptable. (They have to be socially acceptable, or else he's a major jerk.) -------------------------- Having said all of this, I don't buy his explanation that she provides him with more emotional support. (When he says, "when he went there he said he talked with her a lot about how they need to just be friends and yet in one instance she tried to kiss him", he's not describing a woman who's maximally emotionally supporting him. Instead, he's describing a woman who's trying to monopolize his attentions.) (This is "Bad Mistress" behavior, because a "Good Mistress" knows to never try and monopolize his time.) The "she has useful connections in the pursuit of his prospective career" explanation is probably truthful, but no man sabotages his relationship with a woman he loves for that reason. So I think she's just hot and crazy, while you're sweet and nice - which most men (secretly) find a really awesome combination, provided that he can manage both women's behavior. But you all live in a society that doesn't allow men to admit that they like this combination, nor to negotiate rules for having sex with both of you simultaneously, nor to provide excellent guidelines on what those rules should entail, (nor on how to discuss them peacefully). Thus, all he can do is feel frustrated, and delay all decisions for as long as possible. (The longer he delays, the longer he gets to keep both of you.) I don't think anything that's happening is bad. But I do think you're forced to put "commitment pressure" on him, simply to accelerate his decision-making process. If he bitches at you after committing to you, just dump him. If he bitches at you after you make undeniable improvements to your emotional communication skills, just dump him. You aren't being secretly dumped; you're experiencing the typical foot-dragging of a powerless man who has what he likes - but isn't supposed to like having. And if he dumps you after you move in with him, don't accept his, "This is all my fault, because I've a history of neglecting other peoples' emotional needs!" explanation. That explanation is the only socially-acceptable one I can think of, so of course he latched on to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 Alright, I know that my womanizer-in-training perspective isn't popular in FDR, but I think it's extremely helpful here. Most men who sleep with more than one woman are trying to build the best woman by extracting the best qualities of two different women. The usual split is Woman A is tough, self-starter, financially secure, older, good job prospects, more emotionally stable - but is a bit emotionally aloof, and constantly insecure because she wonders why (despite all of her possessions) she's still single. And Woman B is weak, younger, financially insecure, and emotionally erratic but more supportive and compassionate. But another common split is Woman A is virtuous in many ways but isn't all that attractive. While Woman B isn't very virtuous at all, but is extremely attractive. I don't think the majority of people should get involved in multiple-person partnerships, but I do think society's massive injunctions against such relationships, (coupled with the "Either stay with one person, or dump them so they can find someone else!" mantra), make people unwilling to explore such relationships. And this unwillingness makes men terrible at explaining their feelings when they're in conflict between multiple women. This inability leads to wrongful-explanations that are socially acceptable. (They have to be socially acceptable, or else he's a major jerk.) -------------------------- Having said all of this, I don't buy his explanation that she provides him with more emotional support. (When he says, "when he went there he said he talked with her a lot about how they need to just be friends and yet in one instance she tried to kiss him", he's not describing a woman who's maximally emotionally supporting him. Instead, he's describing a woman who's trying to monopolize his attentions.) (This is "Bad Mistress" behavior, because a "Good Mistress" knows to never try and monopolize his time.) The "she has useful connections in the pursuit of his prospective career" explanation is probably truthful, but no man sabotages his relationship with a woman he loves for that reason. So I think she's just hot and crazy, while you're sweet and nice - which most men (secretly) find a really awesome combination, provided that he can manage both women's behavior. But you all live in a society that doesn't allow men to admit that they like this combination, nor to negotiate rules for having sex with both of you simultaneously, nor to provide excellent guidelines on what those rules should entail, (nor on how to discuss them peacefully). Thus, all he can do is feel frustrated, and delay all decisions for as long as possible. (The longer he delays, the longer he gets to keep both of you.) I don't think anything that's happening is bad. But I do think you're forced to put "commitment pressure" on him, simply to accelerate his decision-making process. If he bitches at you after committing to you, just dump him. If he bitches at you after you make undeniable improvements to your emotional communication skills, just dump him. You aren't being secretly dumped; you're experiencing the typical foot-dragging of a powerless man who has what he likes - but isn't supposed to like having. And if he dumps you after you move in with him, don't accept his, "This is all my fault, because I've a history of neglecting other peoples' emotional needs!" explanation. That explanation is the only socially-acceptable one I can think of, so of course he latched on to it. Wow, I couldn't have had a better explanation that makes more sense than this. It seems like this might really be the case. He has always said that I'm the best gf a man could have, and yet, he still wandered away a bit. I even told him that I was okay if he wanted to try to work it out with the both of us, but she was not having it, and he decided that he couldn't feel right about splitting affections between us. We've talked of having open relationships, but I think it didn't seem so appealing to me when he turned it into a choice between the two of us. I like him a lot and wouldn't mind accepting a slightly less conventional relationship, but he's put the restrictions on himself, and once he did that, I added extra pressure for him to make a choice and that's when he made this decision. If it turns out not to work out in the end I'll have to get over it, but I really care about him in that rational Ayn Rand-Nathaniel Braden kind of way, which doesn't really work in society. MMX2010, I would be curious to see how your lifestyle plays out for you. I think if I want a future with kids it's not sustainable to have a person who is not committed to me, but for now, there are no kids relying on my choices, and I'd just like to be the happiest I can be in the present. I think this discussion has been enlightening and has given me some ideas of things to discuss with my bf, so I thank you all for your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 When I read your first post, I wanted to kick your BF in the stones because I disbelieved his emotional explanations. ("Are you a man or a mouse?!?") When I read your most recent post, I wanted to kick your BF in the stones because he has what I want - but doesn't know how to keep it. When you said, "I even told him that I was okay if he wanted to try to work it out with the both of us...", my womanizing instincts yelled, "Yahtzee! That's Great Girlfriend speak!" And when you continued, "but she was not having it, and he decided that he couldn't feel right about splitting affections between us.", my stones-kicking desire maximized. Her actions are simply Bad Mistress speak, where The Chick Who Thinks She Should Be The Girlfriend pretends not to understand the rule, "If he wanted to move in with you, he would've done so by now. So if you got to beg him to do it, or tempt him with sex to do it, then you're the Mistress - not the Girlfriend." To your credit, your boyfriend refused her advances. To his detriment, he didn't try to turn Bad Mistress into Good Mistress. (It's not that difficult: most of it is just playful audacity.) Now, the majority of FDR members hate the suggestion that he should've tried to turn Bad Mistress into Good Mistress, and they'll cite "integrity" and "living your values" as major cores of their argument. However, my reply is that negotiating for a Mistress in a society that hates you for doing so will probably lead to some joy, some pain, some arrogance, some deep-rooted disbelief that you really thought you could handle two women at once, some mischievous satisfaction that at times you masterfully handled two women at once, and quite a few things to apologize to your girlfriend for. Yet if he doesn't negotiate for a Mistress, he'll end up with a much more stable relationship with you and a large pile of Self-Doubt. It's the Self-Doubt that's currently making you crazy in the "WTF?!? Make up your mind!" sort of way. For it's the Self-Doubt that makes him say, "You're the best GF a man can have!", while also "wandering away for a little bit". And it's the Self-Doubt that makes him say, "Oh crap. I don't know how to keep Mistress in line, so I guess I should fully commit to my GF." (The foot aimed at his stones is that, "If you only guess that you should fully commit to your GF, as a reaction to your Mistress's bad behavior, then it doesn't count as a commitment...") To be fair, I didn't have any womanizing tendencies when I was 25. So I think I want to kick his stones because I can't kick my own 25 year old stones. MMX2010, I would be curious to see how your lifestyle plays out for you. I think if I want a future with kids it's not sustainable to have a person who is not committed to me, but for now, there are no kids relying on my choices, and I'd just like to be the happiest I can be in the present. The strongest argument against having Mistresses is the "for the children" argument. I agree with it 100%, but it has two weaknesses: (1) When a woman voluntarily says she doesn't want children, she invalidates the "for the children" argument for her, personally. (2) If I convincingly argue that 60% of women should never become mothers, then I'm invalidating the "for the children" argument for the majority of women. (That argument, if taken seriously by any society, creates seismic shifts in its construction. And no society, to my knowledge, has ever thought this way. So, of course, few people can discuss it calmly.) ------------------ I spoke about my Mistress in Rainbow Jamz, "How Are Tattoos, Piercings, and Heavy Make-Up....?" thread. (The thread is on the first page of General Messages, about 80% of the way down. And my posts about the Mistress are on page 4: posts 129, 132, 138, and 140.) Recently, I had this hilarious exchange with her: We were discussing some examples of Heartiste's "Dread Game", (When a woman reads Heartiste, it's like watching how sausages are made. You've been warned.), and I tried to remember the most over-the-top examples while sitting with her in a sushi restaurant. She knows that she's supposed to maintain composure and say something witty in return, but I win when she's rendered speechless or in shock. So I relate my favorite example, "When someone tells you (the man) that you and your girlfriend look so cute together, reply by looking down at the ground, then scratching the back of your head while helplessly sighing, 'Yeah.....' and staring off into space. Bonus points if your girlfriend is sitting right next to you." She is visibly shocked and strongly (not tearfully, but incredulously) asks, "Do you really understand what a horrible person you are? These are your idols?" I laugh, grab both of her hands across the table, look her in the face and playfully say, "I'm gonna sleep with a whole bunch of women. And you're gonna buy me a necklace that says 'Insert Pet Name'. And I'm gonna wear it when I go chick hunting." She is shocked again, but smiles and proudly says, "If you want me to buy you a shock collar, I'll buy you a shock collar!" And I reply (slowly but smoothly enough), "A shock collar? Wait a minute. You're saying that my problem is that I have too many desires and try to pursue them. No....wait. That's not it at all. You think the shock collar will provide energy, like charging a battery! You want me to pursue my urges! Awwwwww, that's why I like you." She made some tepid remark about "questioning her life decisions" and "wondering why she puts up with all of this". But she let me kiss her when I walked her back to the car, and texted me the next day. So, as of now, it's good between us. One day a Girlfriend is going to appear who'll negotiate to first limit contact with my Mistress, and then (if we both want children) to break off contact with her entirely. Until then, though, I like my life as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 That's really badass MMX2010! I can see how that could be unappealing to some women, but it seems to be working well for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. D. Stembal Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I don't want to project myself too much onto your boyfriend, but if you are both in your mid-twenties, he may be considering letting his male libido run loose. I'm particularly concerned because you characterized him as whimsical. This female competitor of yours may decide that since you live so far away, you have no right to continue dating her man. Your boyfriend may go along with this plan because it will get him more sex in the short run, and he can continue to have you visit him for sex. You seem far too willing to compromise just to continue seeing him, and having a sexual relationship. I'm not bragging about this, but just as a matter of fact, between the age of 18-25, I had no fewer than 30 sexual partners. I am reasonably certain that not all men are like me, but still other men are more prolific in their sexual exploits. If I were a woman with a modicum of self-knowledge, I would only be rationally interested in a man who knows for certain that he wants to be with me. Irrationally, I would be attracted to the bad boy who doesn't call me for three weeks after we first have sex. Does your boyfriend have the qualities of a bad boy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheW_nderer Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Well, This all ended well I guess. He had the power I didn't have to break up with me, finally and I feel good about it. I fought it really hard, but deep down I realized that this was not what I really wanted from a relationship, but I didn't want to let it go. I cried as he was doing it, but the next morning I felt so free, and was really able to clearly think about how much of an asshole he really was, and how desperate I was to not be alone or to lose him. Why was I fighting for him? It wasn't really worth it, but I'm glad he didn't give into to my pleas to try to make it work. Because, I have been so delusional for the past few weeks. I've known all along what would come of this, but wanted to prolong it for the sake of comfort. I'm kind of ashamed of myself, because I've known all along that we we're not compatible, but I felt that over the past years I had changed or helped him change and that I had molded him into the ideal man for me; and that's not the case. As soon as I was gone, he reverted back to that 22 year old him that I met while exploring the world. And I'm too old for that now. He's not really a bad boy, but an asshole without knowing it. He meant well by breaking up, but I still think that he created this entire situation and hurt two people in the process. Of course myself the most. So maybe not "bad boy" but definitely "asshole" He has been my first serious relationship and I realize that the average woman has 2-3 so, I'm dusting off my shoulders and getting my life together as a single person. This just happened last night, so I know I'm not completely over it, but I felt before that I couldn't live without him, and now, I realize that that is just bullshit. I blocked/erased him from my life, but not before regaining some dignity and writing him a letter recounting my true feelings on the matter, minus my irrational display of emotions in from of him. He will probably be with that other girl, and that still stings my heart a bit, to the point that I want to cut him off completely so I don't have to see when it happens. Not sure if this is healthy behavior, but I've never done this before so I'm doing my best! Any suggestions?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMX2010 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 How long were you two seriously dating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. D. Stembal Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I'm kind of ashamed of myself, because I've known all along that we we're not compatible, but I felt that over the past years I had changed or helped him change and that I had molded him into the ideal man for me; and that's not the case. Molding another into an ideal person is impossible. You have to find someone already suited to your tastes. You did great! I'm glad you feel free. There are no set rules for relationships. If you don't want to contact him any more, don't contact him. It might be worth exploring why you were hanging onto the relationship even though you knew it wasn't what you wanted. We've all been in this situation before. I had one really dysfunctional relationship when I was 21. It almost ended up with me being arrested for assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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