What constitutes romantic love?

[neeeel]

but I felt that over the past years I had changed or helped him change and that I had molded him into the ideal man for me

 

I dont think this is the ideal way to approach a relationship. Any relationship where you are changing the partner, or attempting to change them, is probably doomed to failure. Do you think that your attempts to mould him into an ideal man could have had some effect on how he viewed you?

[PatrickC]

By the way, well done for finally understanding the reality of the relationship you were in.

 

He will probably be with that other girl, and that still stings my heart a bit, to the point that I want to cut him off completely so I don't have to see when it happens.

 

From experience this 'sting' or pain (hurt) arises mostly from unmet needs, which have little to nothing to do with this guy and probably come from childhood memories. For example feelings of abandonment or neglect perhaps. It's what probably inspired the pleading with him that you mentioned earlier.

 

My advice is to try and connect with those childhood memories to understand where they came from. In that way you can start to recognise them as they begin to take form in any future partners. The feelings will then begin to serve as a kind of warning for you and you will start to become more confident about what your needs are and with whom you can meet them with.

[TheW_nderer]

How long were you two seriously dating? 

We were together for 2 years. 

By the way, well done for finally understanding the reality of the relationship you were in.

 

 

From experience this 'sting' or pain (hurt) arises mostly from unmet needs, which have little to nothing to do with this guy and probably come from childhood memories. For example feelings of abandonment or neglect perhaps. It's what probably inspired the pleading with him that you mentioned earlier.

 

My advice is to try and connect with those childhood memories to understand where they came from. In that way you can start to recognise them as they begin to take form in any future partners. The feelings will then begin to serve as a kind of warning for you and you will start to become more confident about what your needs are and with whom you can meet them with.

I think that he had become a great person in Taiwan, but upon returning he began to turn back to his normal ways, and when we were near to each other he just wandered away, which is why is looked for the other girl for comfort. 

 

I think he I was constantly trying to change him, but I would often him push him to become a better person. And that was something that he always said he appreciated about me. Now He's going to use the things I taught/helped to see on someone else. Kinda sucks. 

By the way, well done for finally understanding the reality of the relationship you were in.

 

 

From experience this 'sting' or pain (hurt) arises mostly from unmet needs, which have little to nothing to do with this guy and probably come from childhood memories. For example feelings of abandonment or neglect perhaps. It's what probably inspired the pleading with him that you mentioned earlier.

 

My advice is to try and connect with those childhood memories to understand where they came from. In that way you can start to recognise them as they begin to take form in any future partners. The feelings will then begin to serve as a kind of warning for you and you will start to become more confident about what your needs are and with whom you can meet them with.

I think the sting comes a lot from the idea that the love of my life so abruptly left me for someone else. Though he claims he hasn't made the decision to be with her yet. Deep down I know that there would be no decision to make were it not for her. So seeing all of these dreams crash in the form of his being with her feels a bit "stingy". 

 

I've never fully opened up or given my heart to anyone in my life, and every time I've thought about it has ended with me feeling like I shouldn't have. And finally this person comes along who I feel I can trust with everything, and end the end, they end up leaving me as well. 

 

I was raised to be distrustful of others and it took me a while to get over that, and this relationship was my ultimate challenge, and here's how it ends.. 

[TheW_nderer]

Is it realistic to feel like I've been wronged throughout this? I feel like he has been an asshole for doing this, but is it wrong to feel that way?

[PatrickC]

Now He's going to use the things I taught/helped to see on someone else. Kinda sucks.

 

I agree, but that is for him to understand of course.

 

On an aside I think a women encouraging her man to better himself is an entirely natural and healthy pursuit for women. The trick is to understand when it actually works and when it doesn't. The reasons for it not working could well lie within either yourself, the man or indeed a mixture of both even.

 

I was raised to be distrustful of others and it took me a while to get over that, and this relationship was my ultimate challenge, and here's how it ends.. 

 

Well that is a useful piece of self knowledge to know about your family history. I'd suggest exploring the ramifications of it and who it was protecting in a bit more detail.

 

Is it realistic to feel like I've been wronged throughout this? I feel like he has been an asshole for doing this, but is it wrong to feel that way?

 

Yes he's been an asshole, but then again what are you going to do with that information? If you truly believe you were just helpless, then it's going to be just as difficult to see it happening again with some new guy. I would concentrate on the things that attracted you to this guy in the first place. That way you'll hopefully discover patterns in yourself that drew you to him.

 

You have my sympathy mind, because this only just happened in the past day or so. So I understand how you must be feeling. But holding it against him wont serve you in the end. Best wishes.

[TheW_nderer]

I agree, but that is for him to understand of course.

 

On an aside I think a women encouraging her man to better himself is an entirely natural and healthy pursuit for women. The trick is to understand when it actually works and when it doesn't. The reasons for it not working could well lie within either yourself, the man or indeed a mixture of both even.

 

 

Well that is a useful piece of self knowledge to know about your family history. I'd suggest exploring the ramifications of it and who it was protecting in a bit more detail.

 

 

Yes he's been an asshole, but then again what are you going to do with that information? If you truly believe you were just helpless, then it's going to be just as difficult to see it happening again with some new guy. I would concentrate on the things that attracted you to this guy in the first place. That way you'll hopefully discover patterns in yourself that drew you to him.

 

You have my sympathy mind, because this only just happened in the past day or so. So I understand how you must be feeling. But holding it against him wont serve you in the end. Best wishes.

I know what you mean.

 

I wasn't helpless through all of this, but somehow I've drawn comfort from the idea that he actually wronged me and knowing that I shouldn't feel that I've lost so much no matter how much I cared about him. And all-in-all this brings on self-reflection as to why I was ever attracted to him. 

 

Being angry at him feels better than still loving him to death for something he's not. 

 

Thank you for your advice! 

[Jeremi]

I know what you mean.

 

I wasn't helpless through all of this, but somehow I've drawn comfort from the idea that he actually wronged me and knowing that I shouldn't feel that I've lost so much no matter how much I cared about him. And all-in-all this brings on self-reflection as to why I was ever attracted to him. 

 

Being angry at him feels better than still loving him to death for something he's not. 

 

Thank you for your advice! 

 

Hi Wanderer,

 

I'm just getting caught up in this thread and thought to offer my view if it is at all useful.

 

I see your anger as completely justified, as it more or less seems his virtues were just more a function of how he wanted to be seen by you, rather than likely much of anything he actually holds as a real principle in his life. Still, I don't know enough about this man to say for sure, but it certainly seems to me like the initial impressions you might have formed about him were skewed not just by inexperience but the fact you found each other in a foreign country. In the same way that you might go out of your way to greet and converse with another American (or Canadian or whatever) that you happen to run across while submerged in a far off foreign country, this might have heightened your sense of attachment for him in the initial stage which otherwise might not have been the same back home.

 

I concur with what previous posters have said now about taking the time to refine your criteria for the future and letting introspection be your guide moving forward. After all, how can you expect to trust a man with the most intimate details of who you are, if you have not yet taken the full time required to discover them yourself?

[TheW_nderer]

Hi Wanderer,

 

I'm just getting caught up in this thread and thought to offer my view if it is at all useful.

 

I see your anger as completely justified, as it more or less seems his virtues were just more a function of how he wanted to be seen by you, rather than likely much of anything he actually holds as a real principle in his life. Still, I don't know enough about this man to say for sure, but it certainly seems to me like the initial impressions you might have formed about him were skewed not just by inexperience but the fact you found each other in a foreign country. In the same way that you might go out of your way to greet and converse with another American (or Canadian or whatever) that you happen to run across while submerged in a far off foreign country, this might have heightened your sense of attachment for him in the initial stage which otherwise might not have been the same back home.

 

I concur with what previous posters have said now about taking the time to refine your criteria for the future and letting introspection be your guide moving forward. After all, how can you expect to trust a man with the most intimate details of who you are, if you have not yet taken the full time required to discover them yourself?

Jeremi,

 

Thanks for this. It is very true. We were always careful when we thought about our relationship and wondered if it only fit in Taiwan, but not in the "real world". We thought there was really something here when I first visited him, but now I see that he wasn't really the person I thought he was; though he is capable of being that person. The US has given him the excuse he needed to escape the pressure of that guy, who's rational and determined and values the person who has pushed him the most to be great.

 

As of now, I can see the small things indicators that he might have just been fitting in the mold, but I held on to hope. 

 

I'm ready to move on and I know what I want in a relationship, which is the person I thought he was. And I'm ready for it whenever it comes. I know myself, and I know what I want and need, but I also need to not compromise in any of the areas. 

 

Sadly, finding that type of guy pre-made, is not very likely! lol

[Jeremi]

Jeremi,

 

Thanks for this. It is very true. We were always careful when we thought about our relationship and wondered if it only fit in Taiwan, but not in the "real world". We thought there was really something here when I first visited him, but now I see that he wasn't really the person I thought he was; though he is capable of being that person. The US has given him the excuse he needed to escape the pressure of that guy, who's rational and determined and values the person who has pushed him the most to be great.

 

As of now, I can see the small things indicators that he might have just been fitting in the mold, but I held on to hope. 

 

I'm ready to move on and I know what I want in a relationship, which is the person I thought he was. And I'm ready for it whenever it comes. I know myself, and I know what I want and need, but I also need to not compromise in any of the areas. 

 

Sadly, finding that type of guy pre-made, is not very likely! lol

Wanderer,

 

I'm glad you have been able to reflect on this and gain some clarity. It goes without saying but I would caution you against selling yourself short again or settling for a guy that you can "mold" into what you want. It's one thing if both people are committed to personal growth in a mutual framework of honesty and integrity, it's quite another when one partner is trying to drag the other into greater virtue.

 

Good luck!

[TheW_nderer]

Jeremi,

 

You're so right. I didn't realize until now that the dragging was happening in that I thought we had bought agreed to personal growth together. But it turns out that wasn't the case.

 

I'm done with the damsel in armor act.(not sure what would be the opposite of knight in shining armor? lol)

 

I'm excited to see what's out there for me in the future! And this is definitely a lesson learned the hard way. 

[Jeremi]

 

I'm done with the damsel in armor act.(not sure what would be the opposite of knight in shining armor? lol)

 

 

 

Yes don't be a Joan of Arc, she was burned at the stake after all.

[J. D. Stembal]

Who wronged whom, and how?

 

You said that you actively tried to mold him into a better person (more suitable boyfriend), then he had a relapse after coming back to the States.

 

Perhaps, you were setting up hoops for him to jump through to train him. Training is not learning, nor is it very useful knowledge. It would be illustrative if we knew exactly how this manifested in your relationship, but for now I will generalize. When tasked with a series of benchmarks, the brain will do a calculation, "What is the minimum number of hoops that I have to jump through to attain and keep sexual access? Is the effort and cost worth the benefits I will receive?"

 

What I suspect happened is that he conformed to what you wanted him to be when you were together is Asia, and then when you were separated again, there was no need to conform any more because he did not have regular sexual access. The reason why I asked "Who wronged whom, and how?" is because in a paradigm where the women hold all the decision making power regarding sexual access, men are easily influenced by the expectations of the woman. Of course, this does not excuse your boyfriend's duplicitous behavior, but how much of your relationship required him to hit benchmarks in order to retain access to your sexual assets?

 

Instead of using the tactic of gradually moving the goal posts, you have to know the man you want to be with before you meet him. It's very easy for men to identify "shit tests" and respond accordingly. We know the script, and we can execute it perfectly when we are motivated by what women are offering. We also know that sexual relationships that revolve around the moving goal posts can never last, but we pursue them anyway until we finally realize that it's not worth it playing that game any more. I'm mostly talking about myself here, but I think a lot of men can identify with this.

 

From the perspective of your boyfriend, I theorize that he did not hold any anticipation that your relationship would last beyond Asia. Since you were there for a couple years, he preferred to have the companionship of a fellow Westerner instead of one of the local Chinese girls (in-group sexual preference). He could comfortably jump through any hoop you gave him, because he knew once you got back to your points of origin, he could stop pretending to be the man you wanted him to be.

 

(For the guys in the thread.) Considering in-group and out-group sexual preferences while traveling or living in Asia, I would recommend being very hesitant around Eastern women until you find out what their motivations are. The first and only time I went to Hong Kong, I surveyed the night life of the city in the company of four Taiwanese women that I met at a product convention. They were all at least ten years older than me, so I was reasonably certain that they did not have any sexual designs, nor did I have much money at my disposal. I suspect they just wanted to be escorted around town by a young man from the West. I was a status symbol for them, like having a pool boy. They refused to let me pay for anything. Looking back on it, it strikes me as watching an episode of the Twilight Zone.

 

This is why I have often said to men that if you want to know what it feels like to be an attractive woman, travel to Asia as a Westerner (avoid Southern Thailand and most of Indonesia). You need a baton to keep the women off of you. Many of them are sex workers, of course.

[neeeel]

Did you love him? What does that mean for you? 

Because if you loved him, as he is, then why did you feel the need to change him.

If you felt the need to change him, then you cant have loved him as he was, because there were things about him you wanted to change.

 

I think it would be interesting to explore why you felt that you loved and wanted to spend the rest of your life with someone who wasnt, in your eyes, everything you wanted in a partner. 

[TheW_nderer]

Yes don't be a Joan of Arc, she was burned at the stake after all.

My heart felt like a burned steak the other day. But I'm feeling better. 

 

I just wish I had someone to help me move on from this like he will. He has his built-in safety blanket, and I've just got myself and FDR! haha

Did you love him? What does that mean for you? 

Because if you loved him, as he is, then why did you feel the need to change him.

If you felt the need to change him, then you cant have loved him as he was, because there were things about him you wanted to change.

 

I think it would be interesting to explore why you felt that you loved and wanted to spend the rest of your life with someone who wasnt, in your eyes, everything you wanted in a partner. 

Yours is shorter so I'll try to answer it. I guess by change I should say "push" or "encourage" because there were a lot of things about his personality and lifestyle that he expressed to me that he didn't like and wanted me to help him overcome. 

 

Things like drinking too much, not being motivated, not believing in himself, and so I would do whatever I could to try to push him in a way that seemed better. Also, I emphasized how being rational was much more helpful as a tool than emotions were to help him achieve his goals, and as time went on, he took heed. He seemed to be making that choice, I never wanted to force him to do anything, he always seemed like it was what he wanted. Of course we would argue philosophy or politics, but I never wanted to just make him accept everything I said. 

 

I feel I probably was attracted to him for his openness to change and correct his errors as well as his potential. And when he became that person, I was kind of in it, but maybe he was never really that person.

Who wronged whom, and how?

 

You said that you actively tried to mold him into a better person (more suitable boyfriend), then he had a relapse after coming back to the States.

 

Perhaps, you were setting up hoops for him to jump through to train him. Training is not learning, nor is it very useful knowledge. It would be illustrative if we knew exactly how this manifested in your relationship, but for now I will generalize. When tasked with a series of benchmarks, the brain will do a calculation, "What is the minimum number of hoops that I have to jump through to attain and keep sexual access? Is the effort and cost worth the benefits I will receive?"

 

What I suspect happened is that he conformed to what you wanted him to be when you were together is Asia, and then when you were separated again, there was no need to conform any more because he did not have regular sexual access. The reason why I asked "Who wronged whom, and how?" is because in a paradigm where the women hold all the decision making power regarding sexual access, men are easily influenced by the expectations of the woman. Of course, this does not excuse your boyfriend's duplicitous behavior, but how much of your relationship required him to hit benchmarks in order to retain access to your sexual assets?

 

Instead of using the tactic of gradually moving the goal posts, you have to know the man you want to be with before you meet him. It's very easy for men to identify "shit tests" and respond accordingly. We know the script, and we can execute it perfectly when we are motivated by what women are offering. We also know that sexual relationships that revolve around the moving goal posts can never last, but we pursue them anyway until we finally realize that it's not worth it playing that game any more. I'm mostly talking about myself here, but I think a lot of men can identify with this.

 

From the perspective of your boyfriend, I theorize that he did not hold any anticipation that your relationship would last beyond Asia. Since you were there for a couple years, he preferred to have the companionship of a fellow Westerner instead of one of the local Chinese girls (in-group sexual preference). He could comfortably jump through any hoop you gave him, because he knew once you got back to your points of origin, he could stop pretending to be the man you wanted him to be.

 

(For the guys in the thread.) Considering in-group and out-group sexual preferences while traveling or living in Asia, I would recommend being very hesitant around Eastern women until you find out what their motivations are. The first and only time I went to Hong Kong, I surveyed the night life of the city in the company of four Taiwanese women that I met at a product convention. They were all at least ten years older than me, so I was reasonably certain that they did not have any sexual designs, nor did I have much money at my disposal. I suspect they just wanted to be escorted around town by a young man from the West. I was a status symbol for them, like having a pool boy. They refused to let me pay for anything. Looking back on it, it strikes me as watching an episode of the Twilight Zone.

 

This is why I have often said to men that if you want to know what it feels like to be an attractive woman, travel to Asia as a Westerner (avoid Southern Thailand and most of Indonesia). You need a baton to keep the women off of you. Many of them are sex workers, of course.

I totally understand what you mean. He said that his goal to get over this girl who broke his heart, with whom is now getting back with is was to go to Asia and just sleep around and make himself feel better until he met me. 

 

We both had ample opportunities to find other people and even both cheated on each other soon into the relationship but never did again.